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Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.


"You don't think (clear bad thing not being discussed) is bad? I'd find it bad personally."

Sealion.

You failed to explain what has warranted this aggression on your behalf and what your problem is with the question I asked you but I am beginning to notice a pattern here. I'm terribly sorry I don't talk like you, but rephrasing what I said didn't change what I asked at all.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.


"You don't think (clear bad thing not being discussed) is bad? I'd find it bad personally."

Sealion.

You failed to explain what has warranted this aggression on your behalf and what your problem is with the question I asked you but I am beginning to notice a pattern here. I'm terribly sorry I don't talk like you, but rephrasing what I said didn't change what I asked at all.


It's okay, I forgive you for being a seafaring mammal.

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Originally Posted by Sunfly

It's okay, I forgive you for being a seafaring mammal.


cry

I hope you wake up feeling better.

Last edited by Argonaut; 19/10/20 12:30 AM.

I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.

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Nothing in this game is hard when you still have all the D:OS abuse around. So stop whining about difficulty already.

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.



Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate.

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I too feel the same about a lot of what you said.

1) I for one don't mind the hostility from the npc's. Its just a story, I like it. Who know's what the other Act's will hold

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

3) I know this is EA , and this is to be expected, My characters will get skipped in the combat round.. I lost a entire 40 hr saved game, my search and completion of the underdark was lost.. that bummed me out. I know the game will be wiped anyway.. so there is that

Over all the game has had me enthralled. I guess my biggest fuss is the combat, and camera.









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Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Legion of Doom - Dungeons and Dragons online - server Orion -
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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.



Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate.


+1

This is also my main gripe with BG3 right now. To feel a little bit special you gotta play something like a drow and a cleric (from my experience that combo gets the most extra dialogue), cause indeed, your race and your class don't make up for your character's personal history and dialogue specific only to them. Hell, in POE, depending on what you picked - like a noble who's family got murdered, it would be referenced MULTIPLE times later in the game. It indeed made the PC unique. The PC had a place in the world. They did something long before they were run out or decided to make the journey across Eora to build up a new life elsewhere. Your companions even ask you what would you do once this is all over, what are your plans. In BG3 as of now the only companion that wants to know what you wanna do after the tadpole problem is dealt with is Astarion.. and to get that dialogue you gotta rest in camp multiple times and get Lae to speak to Zorru. You kill Lae? Oh, no extra content for you.

Also, I agree with most of what the OP has said. Aside from hard battles, in my book they aren't hard, just tedious. I wish Larian took some pages off of what Obsidian has done with POE, give us some sort of fast forward or something. Some battles got so many NPCs attached that waiting for your turn gets real boring real quick. Oh and I hate the surfaces with a passion. They belong in DOS1 and DOS2, not in a D&D game. At least not to this extent.

Last edited by Nicottia; 19/10/20 02:39 AM.
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Surfaces wouldn't be so bad if I didn't get bombarded with grease and fire on round 1 half the time with those goblins.

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Goblins are easy, you can use those some things against the goblins. Gale is great to have cause he has Grease and Sleep, and Astarion is just amazing when tackling goblins. Make sure you get the high ground, you get a higher chance to hit and higher chance to dodge/get hit less when up high smile.

Lae'zel also can learn abilities that give enemies Frightened status too. With these three you shouldn't have much trouble imo(I was able to clear every fight with these guys up) .


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Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)

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Just completed my first entire play through of the game...


First thoughts were hmmmm... Why only a handful of NPC?
Why only 4?
Why Do I feel like I missing something?

But then kept playing and figured out how the game works, why everyone is so hostile and why I’m feeling like something is missing.

We are.

We are missing our sanity from being Mind-Flayed...

We are hostile because of what happened and do not trust even our own minds...

We are becoming like the Mind-Flayers...

We are missing features and content as is intended....

So then I just will have to play it again when live and then judge it. But so far the style and story is fun and new. Still not sure what Bhaal Spawn connections there will be? The first two games are entirely about that and about how the surrounding NPC reaction to that plays out. So what I would like is this...

A big bad that is interesting that wants me dead (Sarevok, Jon Irenicus)

Some epic storyline that fits into the the first 2? (Drizzt to the rescue, Minsc and Boo!)

Some totally random storylines that have nothing to do with tadpoles and main arc.

Weapons and Armor from the first two games making a return. (Gauntlets of Ogre strength, Belt of Hillgiant,

Overall will still say I like it 4/5

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Originally Posted by Doomlord


2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

0


Sucks to lose your stuff even in EA, i feel for you.

But as far as smart enemies goes, why wouldn't they take the high ground? Or rather why shouldn't they? Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

https://www.themonstersknow.com/goblinoids-revisited/ this is a pretty decent resource.



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Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.


Compared to many of the companions in BG 1 and BG 2, I see them as an improvement. Aerie and Minsc get killed the moment I run into them, I absolutely loathed those companions from the prior games. Some of us prefer darker companions although they could definitely be written better than they are. This is definitely a personal taste thing and ideally there would be different companions for different tastes. Considering Larian has said they wanted data on the evil stuff, I would not be surprised if the good stuff does exist but its not included for the sake of early access testing.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.


The game is already fairly easy. I am playing it solo atm with a warlock to keep combat interesting. If they were to go with the default values, it would go from "fairly easy" to "I can fall asleep on the keyboard and still win the encounter." I feel like a lot of the complaining about these changes are from people who expect to be able to run head on into a fight and expect to win, instead of positioning tactically and taking advantage of terrain obstructions, bottle-necking enemies in tight corridors or differences in height.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.

I like surfaces, they add an additional tactical layer to the game, however they could probably do with some additional balancing factors to make them better fit in the game.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.

There are only 2 large set piece battles in the EA. Either you attack the Goblin Camp, or you Attack/Defend the Grove (or you do both if you enjoy combat). Set piece battles, when used sparsely are imo fine and Larian has definitely used them sparsely.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.

Demonstrably false, considering I am playing through the game with a single character. Take advantage of height differences, break line of sight, take stock of the environment and see what you can use to your advantage. Stand in dimly lit areas to lower your enemies chance to hit. The list goes on.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.

I would rather have a good AI, which prioritizes targets in an intelligent manner, than a poor AI which does not. Right now the AI has a lot of flaws and the fact that the targets it picks are predictable is 1 of them. You know who they will go after? Well, take advantage of that. Put that target in hard to reach places, where enemies will need to take several attacks of opportunity to get to them. Make them bleed. There are many ways you can use that piece of information to your advantage.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.

It is good that powerful items are rare and hard to come by. A rose in a rose garden does not stand out as much as a rose in a bed of weeds. By having powerful items being rare, it makes them that much more rewarding when you do actually get them.

Last edited by Sharp; 19/10/20 06:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sharp




Yes on everything

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?

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Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.


I find most of the npcs are appropriately respectful, the rest don't usually last very long. smile So a lot of this probably depends on race and class. Right now, where are you going to find levity? How much sidetracking are you going to do for this gratitude? You have a tadpole in your head that needs to come out now before you are no longer you. Everyone else can wait unless they might be able to help you, even a good aligned player should recognise the dangers of what this tadpole is going to do and not want to inflict it on the world. If you are constantly running around for others right now then it becomes stupid like FO4 with the "my baby!! must find my baby!! but let me just solve all the problems in the world and save a lot of fools and build settlements and.... but my baby!!

Tactical play is best when dealing with the goblins, not a straight up fight. The health makes it tedious but not sure how to balance this otherwise.

I agree the surfaces thing is a bit much. Makes it too easy and certain cantrips too powerful. The effects should not last as long as they do either, especially after combat.

Could maybe move the trigger to when you get closer to the grove. Problem I have with big battles is the length of time, enemy turns take entirely too long.

Again, tactical play makes it much easier. Find the high ground as much as possible. Climb up somewhere and shoot the ladder behind you so no one can get to you. Even if they change the AI to be more realistic when they can't find the player, fights are entirely doable solo or at least without a cleric. Potions are easily found/bought, everyone can use scrolls, food is everywhere.

Targeting the mage or healer is logical. Mage Armour exists, use it or play a warlock or race with armour proficiency. Have your wizard save all the scrolls for it and use for big fights so they don't have to waste a spell slot.

Not sure what you consider good loot but my current character has a lot of really useful stuff that actually fits the concept I made for him.

I don't get the DM hating you feel at all from this, but I am used to having to come up with creative solutions to what look like no win solutions in pretty much all games rather than having everything predictable and easy. Things definitely have room for improvement however.

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Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.

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The fight in front of the druid grove is easy(with 4 characters)...

As you near the area your character even says you hear shouting. So, sneak up the hill and approach that way to investigate. It also gives you the high ground, making it a lot easier.

You can do this fight without losing a single NPC.


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