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Nyanko Offline OP
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Has anyone managed to find any kind of proof that the paladin of Tyr is who he says he is and he's not sent by Zariel? Or was the decision you made to help him or Karlach based on your character's alignment? To me, it seems there is not much room for a rational neutral mind on the matter and it's pretty sad. There should be some hints here and there as to what the real story is. Or did I missed them?

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This is a strange quest altogether.
It lacks the option to find out the true identity of the Paladins of Tyr, then tell them about it, and DO NOT FIGHT (which starts automatically), but find out in more detail and offer help to the demons.

It would be an evil passage.
Or, find out that the Paladins of Tyr are really the paladins of Tyr. That would be a good passage.
Now the decision to help paladins is stupid passage.

One of the corpses when casting the "talk to the dead" spell confirms that they are indeed demons. But why don't they turn into demons and behave like paladins even after being revealed?

I only helped Karlach because I didn't want to be dumb. She is also a strange character, logically it should be "good" but I can't call her good.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Has anyone managed to find any kind of proof that the paladin of Tyr is who he says he is and he's not sent by Zariel? Or was the decision you made to help him or Karlach based on your character's alignment? To me, it seems there is not much room for a rational neutral mind on the matter and it's pretty sad. There should be some hints here and there as to what the real story is. Or did I missed them?


Corpse talk to the guys in the house, one of them straight up tells you they're cultists but you can't confront anyone with it. I think it's not finished yet?

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Exactly, that's my problem with the quest. You can only find out about their identity after they are dead. Which doesn't help your decision if you are playing a neutral rational character like the one I am playing now.

On my first playthrough, I played a Lolth sworn drow so I found Karlach story appealing and I didn't mind killing who appeared to be a paladin of Tyr.

There should be an obvious hint somewhere in the house or in the surroundings about who they really are.

Last edited by Nyanko; 18/10/20 08:41 PM.
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I did it both ways, never got her head to turn in to the 'paladins' so that quest went incomplete. Killing the 'paladins' did as you said, they fought like paladins vs removing their illusion and fighting as demons. Never thought to speak to dead. Also why would a demon have and use holy sword?

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Originally Posted by Sephirajo
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Has anyone managed to find any kind of proof that the paladin of Tyr is who he says he is and he's not sent by Zariel? Or was the decision you made to help him or Karlach based on your character's alignment? To me, it seems there is not much room for a rational neutral mind on the matter and it's pretty sad. There should be some hints here and there as to what the real story is. Or did I missed them?


Corpse talk to the guys in the house, one of them straight up tells you they're cultists but you can't confront anyone with it. I think it's not finished yet?


Ok thanks. I just checked and yeah, you can learn they are cultists by talking to the dead. Good find.

PS: and I think the quest is incomplete because she's a companion and they cut her lines where you can recruit her and go on with her journey.

Last edited by Nyanko; 18/10/20 08:45 PM.
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Maybes she's a class not yet implemented.
And will she be lvl 1 if you recruit so you can select her class / feats etc

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Exactly, that's my problem with the quest. You can only find out about their identity after they are dead. Which doesn't help your decision if you are playing a neutral rational character like the one I am playing now.

On my first playthrough, I played a Lolth sworn drow so I found Karlach story appealing and I didn't mind killing who appeared to be a paladin of Tyr.

There should be an obvious hint somewhere in the house or in the surroundings about who they really are.


There is. you can talk to the dead guy lying on the floor near the quest giver who says that they have a pact with a devil. Then if you have Laezal she warns you about getting involved in the affairs of devils. There are also passive checks during your initial convo with Anders that casts doubt on his story. And once you speak to the dead guy you can confront the quest giver about lying about their identities.

Last edited by dza101; 19/10/20 12:14 AM.
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If you kill Karlach before talking to the so called Paladin's you can return to her body to find a newly appeared head to loot for turn in to complete their quest and get his fancy sword without the murdering.

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Hmm. Found this thread after I posted something. I'm glad there is a way to resolve it but I do think that detect thoughts or similar should have had an effect.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Hmm. Found this thread after I posted something. I'm glad there is a way to resolve it but I do think that detect thoughts or similar should have had an effect.


Yeah, or a detect evil. But I don't think the spell exists at the moment. We will have to wait for the paladin class I guess.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Has anyone managed to find any kind of proof that the paladin of Tyr is who he says he is and he's not sent by Zariel? Or was the decision you made to help him or Karlach based on your character's alignment? To me, it seems there is not much room for a rational neutral mind on the matter and it's pretty sad. There should be some hints here and there as to what the real story is. Or did I missed them?



You missed them. There were several things that felt a bit fishy, most importantly the effort made to tell you there's a corpse under the trapdoor. Stepping back a moment, the choice is for every quest to be clearly spelled out or for some of the quests to be ambiguous so there is the potential to be wrong.

Despite myself, I ended up liking how this played out because of that; the way I originally approached it was completely flipped on me because my assumptions were wrong.

That said, if you decide to kill Anders et al, there doesn't appear to be a way to end the quest. I've tried every combo of dialog she offers; I've tried healing her; I've tried asking her to join me ... Maybe because I told her I'd kill them, told them I'd kill her, and then instead of bringing them her head told anders I was siding with her instead.

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I'm missing a third option - we have a soulcoin just lying there and they're missing a soul. So why can't I at least attempt to trade Karlah for it?

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Originally Posted by kfsone
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Has anyone managed to find any kind of proof that the paladin of Tyr is who he says he is and he's not sent by Zariel? Or was the decision you made to help him or Karlach based on your character's alignment? To me, it seems there is not much room for a rational neutral mind on the matter and it's pretty sad. There should be some hints here and there as to what the real story is. Or did I missed them?



You missed them. There were several things that felt a bit fishy, most importantly the effort made to tell you there's a corpse under the trapdoor. Stepping back a moment, the choice is for every quest to be clearly spelled out or for some of the quests to be ambiguous so there is the potential to be wrong.

Despite myself, I ended up liking how this played out because of that; the way I originally approached it was completely flipped on me because my assumptions were wrong.

That said, if you decide to kill Anders et al, there doesn't appear to be a way to end the quest. I've tried every combo of dialog she offers; I've tried healing her; I've tried asking her to join me ... Maybe because I told her I'd kill them, told them I'd kill her, and then instead of bringing them her head told anders I was siding with her instead.


It doesn't end up because she must be a companion and her dialogue is incomplete at the moment. I tried everything too and she seems to be stuck in a loop.

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you can confront the guy behind the table. he tells you the reasoning etc. they were once true tyr paladins

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I searched the forums and ended up here. After I spoke with Karlach, I realized that this quest is a nice twist on the "One always lies, the other always tells the truth" riddle from childhood, but I agree, there didn't seem to be an obvious question to ask where I could pin down whether Anders or Karlach was the liar ("If I asked the other guy if you're a liar, what would that guy say?" I think is the answer to that riddle, IIRC). Further, there is no "detect lie" spell in this game (Didn't see one in the 5e PHB, either, so that spell might be gone). It didn't occur to me to speak with dead; I think I have a scroll for it. I don't think I put it in my spellbook (wizard). I could try it on one of the dead gnolls and see what they say. Lastly, I was cornered into agreeing to fight on Karlach's behalf when I wanted to fully flesh out the dialog tree before deciding. Personally, I think that is an error.

Another thing that I had hoped for: Astarion was in the party during the conversation and he approved something that occurred in the conversation with Karlach, and the other two in the party (Lae'zel or Shadowheart) were neutral. I'd hoped that, at the least, Astarion would give his two cents on why he approved of me joining the fight on the side of a tiefling; perhaps his "eternal" POV would have given me some more insight on which side to join. Also, given Astarion's issues, how come HE didn't mention that these guys don't seem like paladins?


You know, I just realized while typing this all out that I think I can figure out who the liar is: I was told to pursue a devil with "one horn". Karlach doesn't have one horn. That could be a mistake, or it could be on purpose...holy propoganda to make people fight on the side of "good". It was the first thing I noticed when walking up on Karlach: she didn't have one horn, she had two, and maybe she'd seen the devil with one horn. Turns out they were looking to attack her.


Good idea to put this riddle in the game, but it's incomplete. I guess I will post this in Bugs (or cross link it, if I can)

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The Toll House/Karlach encounter feels incomplete. Was she supposed to have 1 horn/a more unique character? That seems possible, as game files indicate that she might be a companion. Anders and crew serve Zariel, which was a surprising twist, and ultimately I ended up fighting them, but the quest doesn't really end (I think she's supposed to join the party at that point).

5e does have a couple of "detect lie" spells - Zone of Truth, which forces people to speak the truth on a failed save, and detect thoughts (as it is difficult to lie without thinking about the truth you are concealing). Spells like Charm Person, Dominate Person, and Suggestion could also compel the truth, though often with negative consequences (when the spell wears off they realize that they've been manipulated).

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Originally Posted by lvl20DM
The Toll House/Karlach encounter feels incomplete. Was she supposed to have 1 horn/a more unique character? That seems possible, as game files indicate that she might be a companion. Anders and crew serve Zariel, which was a surprising twist, and ultimately I ended up fighting them, but the quest doesn't really end (I think she's supposed to join the party at that point).

5e does have a couple of "detect lie" spells - Zone of Truth, which forces people to speak the truth on a failed save, and detect thoughts (as it is difficult to lie without thinking about the truth you are concealing). Spells like Charm Person, Dominate Person, and Suggestion could also compel the truth, though often with negative consequences (when the spell wears off they realize that they've been manipulated).

I don't see a reference to all the possible ways you could investigate this conundrum listed here.

Did you, for example, try speaking to the dead people in the house, to see what happened there?


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Originally Posted by lvl20DM

5e does have a couple of "detect lie" spells - Zone of Truth, which forces people to speak the truth on a failed save, and detect thoughts (as it is difficult to lie without thinking about the truth you are concealing). Spells like Charm Person, Dominate Person, and Suggestion could also compel the truth, though often with negative consequences (when the spell wears off they realize that they've been manipulated).


Detect Thoughts actually is in this game. I have a scroll for that as well.

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Quest spoilers regarding Anders/Karlach

When I speak to Anders I'm able to confront him about not actually being a Paladin of Tyr to which he claims they're not murderers after the Halfling says to lock the doors. They also are friendly even if you exhaust most dialogue options other than the obvious ones that say you're going to kill them.
To sum it up Anders says when he prayed to Tyr when his family was slaughtered he didn't answer, but Zariel did so he, also everyone there, had made deals with Zariel and need to retrieve Karlach. They need to retrieve her because she is an expert demon slayer and 'champion' of Zariel/The Blood War.

If you kill Anders and crew Karlach will tell you her plans to slaughter the ones who ratted her location out when she gets to Baldur's Gate and to avoid it when she gets there. I think she's going to be the Bard companion?

Last edited by Seadle; 26/10/20 03:06 AM.
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