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Figulus Offline OP
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Hi,

I'm no D&D expert so maybe one can explain this for me..

In combat there is no limit to how many times a swordsman can swing his sword or a bowman can shoot arrows.
Why then is there a limit to how many spells a mage can use? He's only using his primary attack like the Sword or bowman.

This leads to mages becoming back up archers in combat half way through a fight. Don't understand it.

Cheers,

Loving the game inspite of above. wink

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Inherent to the D&D system, all the way back to the beginning. In the original version, 1st level mages could only cast ONE spell per day, and had to chose it and "memorize it" in the morning, so could not change their minds later.

As for backup Archers, that's a bonus too, as weapon restrictions in the early versions meant they could only wield dagger, sling or staff.

I think the idea was that "magic" was so inherently (potentially) super powerful it had to be limited a LOT.

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Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 18/10/20 08:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Newtinmpls
Inherent to the D&D system, all the way back to the beginning. In the original version, 1st level mages could only cast ONE spell per day, and had to chose it and "memorize it" in the morning, so could not change their minds later.

As for backup Archers, that's a bonus too, as weapon restrictions in the early versions meant they could only wield dagger, sling or staff.

I think the idea was that "magic" was so inherently (potentially) super powerful it had to be limited a LOT.


Well that makes things clearer , thanks. Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.

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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.


Thanks.I have to admit that i'd not noticed those two spells were unlimited.Still, can't help thinking mages are a little
hard done by in this build.

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Spells scale significantly at higher levels. But again, cantrips (level 0 spells) can be cast without limit, so there is no need to use your mages as archers.

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Originally Posted by Figulus
Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.


That's because we're still at a fairly low level in EA. It's been a theme in D&D and related games for as long as I can remember, that mages start out very weak, but by the end of a campaign they're practically demigods in power. You try to keep them alive until the power curve kicks in.


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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Figulus
Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.


That's because we're still at a fairly low level in EA. It's been a theme in D&D and related games for as long as I can remember, that mages start out very weak, but by the end of a campaign they're practically demigods in power. You try to keep them alive until the power curve kicks in.




I agree, you will be surprised by the RoI wink

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Spells scale significantly at higher levels. But again, cantrips (level 0 spells) can be cast without limit, so there is no need to use your mages as archers.

Cheers , I've learnt this today!

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Originally Posted by Figulus
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.


Thanks.I have to admit that i'd not noticed those two spells were unlimited.Still, can't help thinking mages are a little
hard done by in this build.


Hard done by compared to what? In BG1 you could cast a single spell only then need to rest to cast another at level 1.

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Figulus
Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.


That's because we're still at a fairly low level in EA. It's been a theme in D&D and related games for as long as I can remember, that mages start out very weak, but by the end of a campaign they're practically demigods in power. You try to keep them alive until the power curve kicks in.



I feel there's something fairly realistic about that pattern... maybe young mages are sensitive and more vulnerable to being beaten up by the tough other people - until they get really good with their sensitivity, at which point their way is vastly superior..

Also, about BG3 mages, I found their strength in this first act is primarily in their aoe spells - Burning Hands (whatever it's called), Shatter, Thunderwave. And who doesnt love a good Melf?

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Figulus
Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.


That's because we're still at a fairly low level in EA. It's been a theme in D&D and related games for as long as I can remember, that mages start out very weak, but by the end of a campaign they're practically demigods in power. You try to keep them alive until the power curve kicks in.


Right , starting to get a picture here. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Figulus
Although... I have to say I haven't noticed spells being too powerful in this game.


That's because we're still at a fairly low level in EA. It's been a theme in D&D and related games for as long as I can remember, that mages start out very weak, but by the end of a campaign they're practically demigods in power. You try to keep them alive until the power curve kicks in.



I feel there's something fairly realistic about that pattern... maybe young mages are sensitive and more vulnerable to being beaten up by the tough other people - until they get really good with their sensitivity, at which point their way is vastly superior..

Also, about BG3 mages, I found their strength in this first act is primarily in their aoe spells - Burning Hands (whatever it's called), Shatter, Thunderwave. And who doesnt love a good Melf?


Scorching Ray is a very good spell, but so is using all your slots for no fail magic missiles.

If you have two wizards or a warlock with bolt of fire, you can combine grease and bolt of fire for a fireball effect.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 18/10/20 09:35 PM.
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In OG BG archers were originally limited to how many arrows they were carrying. (which just meant you bought a crap load of arrows) but inventory space was also a restriction for carrying arrows and you could only stack a certain amount (I forgot what the original BG stack size was.. I want to say 12?, it was really low at any rate. Tales of the sword coast might have raised it?.) ... Modders added unlimited stacks of ammo fairly quickly and when IWD released modders added in ammo belts and other bags to BG as well. Beamdog also raised the stack amount for the EE's. I've honestly been using Tweaks Anthology for so long I can't remember if Beamdog added in bags to BG or not.

In BG because of the iron shortage there was always a chance any non-magical weapons and armor could break but there was never really a shortage of weapons and armor as you could just pick it up off some dead enemies or go buy some. So there was only a slight chance that you'd ever have to do battle without a weapon.

Basically there's no limit to sword swings because as long as you have something to swing you can swing it. A mage can use a staff, knife, sling and other ranged weapons... (I love slings for my mages in BG) so mages don't solely rely on magic. You'd basically save your spells for the hard fights and use a ranged weapon for all other fights. Over time in D&D, Crossbows have become the more popular simple ranged weapon for all classes. I don't really see how it's simple.. those things are hard to load in real life. But whatever, .. I'd still rather use slings and darts for my magic users. Crossbows seem weird for a mage.

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In BG1 you could only have 20 ammunition per slot, in BG2 40.

Eventually they added in ammunition belts, bags of holding and unlimited +1 quivers.

In BG3 you still get separate arrows, but those add abilities to your normal ranged attack.

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Originally Posted by Figulus
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.


Thanks.I have to admit that i'd not noticed those two spells were unlimited.Still, can't help thinking mages are a little
hard done by in this build.



That's just because you don't have familiarity with D&D. Low level wizards, this game included, are in a way better place than they used to be in previous editions. Cantrips are unlimited use and they do more damage than level 1 spells used to back in the day.

My advice is to just forget everything you know about mages from other games. While those games likely drew inspiration from D&D, they aren't D&D. You have all the tools you need to be successful with a wizard (or warlock) in this game. Understand that you aren't just mobile artillery like other games. Sleep and Grease make hard fights manageable and manageable fights easy so don't just slot all damage spells. Use all your tools.

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*laughs in Level 2 Magic Missile with 100% hit rate at all times*
I feel like there needs to be some rebalancing, because 3 guaranteed hits at 1st level on this spell is broken, and 4 hits at the second level is absurd.
Is there a specific reason why they have a 100% hit rate regardless of height or lighting conditions that I'm missing? It almost feels like there's no need to really cast anything else outside of area-of-effect spells.
It's especially problematic as you can just rest to get those spell slots back. At level 4, Gale can clear half of a large fight on his own just using that spell alone.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
*laughs in Level 2 Magic Missile with 100% hit rate at all times*
I feel like there needs to be some rebalancing, because 3 guaranteed hits at 1st level on this spell is broken, and 4 hits at the second level is absurd.
Is there a specific reason why they have a 100% hit rate regardless of height or lighting conditions that I'm missing? It almost feels like there's no need to really cast anything else outside of area-of-effect spells.
It's especially problematic as you can just rest to get those spell slots back. At level 4, Gale can clear half of a large fight on his own just using that spell alone.


Magic Missiles are guaranteed hits because they only do 1d4+1 damage each, making them significantly weaker than other spells.

Also, more reactions will be added later, so if Larian includes the spell Shield that will block the missiles.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
*laughs in Level 2 Magic Missile with 100% hit rate at all times*
I feel like there needs to be some rebalancing, because 3 guaranteed hits at 1st level on this spell is broken, and 4 hits at the second level is absurd.
Is there a specific reason why they have a 100% hit rate regardless of height or lighting conditions that I'm missing? It almost feels like there's no need to really cast anything else outside of area-of-effect spells.
It's especially problematic as you can just rest to get those spell slots back. At level 4, Gale can clear half of a large fight on his own just using that spell alone.


Magic Missile is kind of weak compared to spells that wizards get later on. 4d4 isn't a lot of damage even though it seems like it is at early levels. Fireball for instance, a 3rd level spell. does 8d6 damage in an 20 foot radius and it can't miss either (saves are possible though). Magic Missile still has uses later on but it isn't a wizard's go to for damage.

Oh, and to answer you question about why it always hits, that has always been Magic Missile's hook. Without that, it would just be a weak damage spell almost not worth using once you get level 2 spells.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
*laughs in Level 2 Magic Missile with 100% hit rate at all times*
I feel like there needs to be some rebalancing, because 3 guaranteed hits at 1st level on this spell is broken, and 4 hits at the second level is absurd.
Is there a specific reason why they have a 100% hit rate regardless of height or lighting conditions that I'm missing? It almost feels like there's no need to really cast anything else outside of area-of-effect spells.
It's especially problematic as you can just rest to get those spell slots back. At level 4, Gale can clear half of a large fight on his own just using that spell alone.


When all said and done, as people mentioned - Magic Missiles has pretty low damage potential compared to spells that compete for the slot that can nuke an area worth of enemies. The 100% hit rate is their thing to compensate for weakness of being a pretty tame 1 target nuke.

I mean, even as for level 1 spells - you have Clerics with Guiding Bolt nuking for 4d6 level 1. Magic Missile is weaksauce in comparison, but at least it always hits.

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