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Originally Posted by Osprey39
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
*laughs in Level 2 Magic Missile with 100% hit rate at all times*
I feel like there needs to be some rebalancing, because 3 guaranteed hits at 1st level on this spell is broken, and 4 hits at the second level is absurd.
Is there a specific reason why they have a 100% hit rate regardless of height or lighting conditions that I'm missing? It almost feels like there's no need to really cast anything else outside of area-of-effect spells.
It's especially problematic as you can just rest to get those spell slots back. At level 4, Gale can clear half of a large fight on his own just using that spell alone.


Magic Missile is kind of weak compared to spells that wizards get later on. 4d4 isn't a lot of damage even though it seems like it is at early levels. Fireball for instance, a 3rd level spell. does 8d6 damage in an 20 foot radius and it can't miss either (saves are possible though). Magic Missile still has uses later on but it isn't a wizard's go to for damage.

Oh, and to answer you question about why it always hits, that has always been Magic Missile's hook. Without that, it would just be a weak damage spell almost not worth using once you get level 2 spells.


Melfs Acid Arrow already does the same base damage as level 2 magic missile, plus additional damage over time. But if Melfs only has a 60% chance to hit, you are likely better off using magic missile unless you F5 / F8.

All spells needing to calculate a hit chance is annoying, the chance to hit should be separate to a saving throw as it was in previous D&D games, but I guess this is one of the 5e changes.

Scorching ray can do up to 6d6, but calculates three separate hit rolls. I only consider using it with at least 80% chance to hit.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 18/10/20 11:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf

All spells needing to calculate a hit chance is annoying, the chance to hit should be separate to a saving throw as it was in previous D&D games, but I guess this is one of the 5e changes.


In 5E there are two different ways a spell can connect. Spells that can be resisted or dodged (AOE) work based off a save v. a relevant stat. If the spell needs to be aimed, then it is a spell attack roll using the caster’s Dex.

In BG3, they always just show a percentage of success, but sometimes that percentage means the chance the enemy will blow their saving throw.

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Originally Posted by vyvexthorne
In OG BG archers were originally limited to how many arrows they were carrying. (which just meant you bought a crap load of arrows) but inventory space was also a restriction for carrying arrows and you could only stack a certain amount (I forgot what the original BG stack size was.. I want to say 12?, it was really low at any rate. Tales of the sword coast might have raised it?.) ... Modders added unlimited stacks of ammo fairly quickly and when IWD released modders added in ammo belts and other bags to BG as well. Beamdog also raised the stack amount for the EE's. I've honestly been using Tweaks Anthology for so long I can't remember if Beamdog added in bags to BG or not.

In BG because of the iron shortage there was always a chance any non-magical weapons and armor could break but there was never really a shortage of weapons and armor as you could just pick it up off some dead enemies or go buy some. So there was only a slight chance that you'd ever have to do battle without a weapon.

Basically there's no limit to sword swings because as long as you have something to swing you can swing it. A mage can use a staff, knife, sling and other ranged weapons... (I love slings for my mages in BG) so mages don't solely rely on magic. You'd basically save your spells for the hard fights and use a ranged weapon for all other fights. Over time in D&D, Crossbows have become the more popular simple ranged weapon for all classes. I don't really see how it's simple.. those things are hard to load in real life. But whatever, .. I'd still rather use slings and darts for my magic users. Crossbows seem weird for a mage.

Fair comments , I've learnt to conserve spells for big fights now.

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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
In BG1 you could only have 20 ammunition per slot, in BG2 40.

Eventually they added in ammunition belts, bags of holding and unlimited +1 quivers.

In BG3 you still get separate arrows, but those add abilities to your normal ranged attack.

Now that you mention it , I remember that now!

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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
In BG1 you could only have 20 ammunition per slot, in BG2 40.

Eventually they added in ammunition belts, bags of holding and unlimited +1 quivers.

In BG3 you still get separate arrows, but those add abilities to your normal ranged attack.

Now that you mention it , I remember that now!
Originally Posted by Osprey39
Originally Posted by Figulus
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.


Thanks.I have to admit that i'd not noticed those two spells were unlimited.Still, can't help thinking mages are a little
hard done by in this build.



That's just because you don't have familiarity with D&D. Low level wizards, this game included, are in a way better place than they used to be in previous editions. Cantrips are unlimited use and they do more damage than level 1 spells used to back in the day.

My advice is to just forget everything you know about mages from other games. While those games likely drew inspiration from D&D, they aren't D&D. You have all the tools you need to be successful with a wizard (or warlock) in this game. Understand that you aren't just mobile artillery like other games. Sleep and Grease make hard fights manageable and manageable fights easy so don't just slot all damage spells. Use all your tools.

Good Advice! Cheers.

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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Figulus
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Theres no limits to cantrips you can use.

Spells are limited because they are a lot more powerful and you need to use them strategically.

I don't see why a wizard would become a 'backup archer' when they can cast unlimited bolt of fire or ray of frost.


Thanks.I have to admit that i'd not noticed those two spells were unlimited.Still, can't help thinking mages are a little
hard done by in this build.


Hard done by compared to what? In BG1 you could cast a single spell only then need to rest to cast another at level 1.

Fair comment , had forgotten that..long time ago.

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5e sure made casters a lot more powerful by giving them unlimited cantrips.

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Originally Posted by Osprey39
Magic Missile still has uses later on but it isn't a wizard's go to for damage.

Exactly, it is often used purely to disrupt enemy spellcasters (who often lost spells they were preparing if they took damage) or hitting those pesky high-AC low-HP targets. Also handy when the target is immune to non-magical weapons. They can certainly be used as long-range firepower generally, but 'in the old days' the wizard would generally reserve the spell's use until it was needed.

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Don't forget that magic missile consists of 3 separate missiles. Casting it on a enemy with concentration should make them roll 3 concentration checks. Or, an enemy casting it on an unconscious party member makes them insta fail 3 death saving throws and die. So, while it doesn't do that much damage, it can still be pretty powerful.

Given how Larian has coded enemies to often focus on downed party members, I become so much more terrified when I face an enemy that can cast magic missile o.O

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Originally Posted by Figulus
Hi,

I'm no D&D expert so maybe one can explain this for me..

In combat there is no limit to how many times a swordsman can swing his sword or a bowman can shoot arrows.
Why then is there a limit to how many spells a mage can use? He's only using his primary attack like the Sword or bowman.

This leads to mages becoming back up archers in combat half way through a fight. Don't understand it.

Cheers,

Loving the game inspite of above. wink


It part of the system, as has been said. The other reason is that spell are incredibly more powerful than arrow or sword swing at highter level. And your mage CAN use sling or quarterstaff infinitly, as well, magic isn't his only ressource.


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Maybe im a masochist, but I miss having to have actual arrows in a quiver to use a bow. That is still a consideration in the core rules of 5e that I have never hand waived.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Spells scale significantly at higher levels. But again, cantrips (level 0 spells) can be cast without limit, so there is no need to use your mages as archers.
Well actually, bows/crossbows shoot in an arc, and spells shoot in a straight line, you can hit enemies behind some cover whereas a spell can't.

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That is why I preferred the PoE system, and I think Dragon Age did it too, where most skills are per encounter and only a few per rest. So you do not have certain power spikes, combat is easier to balance and more consistent and a mage with no spells left or at a low level is just ballast. Or cooldowns would work as well on skills I guess.

It kind of makes sense if you think magic is indeed something that should be indefinitely more powerful than physical prowess or expertise, though.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
That is why I preferred the PoE system, and I think Dragon Age did it too, where most skills are per encounter and only a few per rest. So you do not have certain power spikes, combat is easier to balance and more consistent and a mage with no spells left or at a low level is just ballast. Or cooldowns would work as well on skills I guess.

It kind of makes sense if you think magic is indeed something that should be indefinitely more powerful than physical prowess or expertise, though.


I dunno for 5th edition, in 2nd and in previous baldurs gate game, at highter level, mage is the most broken class ever, by far. what you suggest would make them even more broken. '' oh, lets cast a fireball and summon a planetar each fight ! Oh, lets cast 9 magic missile on this mob, I'll get it back after the fight anyways. Oh, lets use my chain of contengency right away with stoneskin, spell invul , mirror image and magic weapon immunity, cuz i'll get it back anyways. Oh , lets use time stop every fight and solo win, because I'll get it back anyways''.

See where i'm going?


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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
That is why I preferred the PoE system, and I think Dragon Age did it too, where most skills are per encounter and only a few per rest. So you do not have certain power spikes, combat is easier to balance and more consistent and a mage with no spells left or at a low level is just ballast. Or cooldowns would work as well on skills I guess.

It kind of makes sense if you think magic is indeed something that should be indefinitely more powerful than physical prowess or expertise, though.


The weakness of spell casting is something I hated about PoE. Everything was so meticulously balanced that it made combat for me often feel like a chore.

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It's worth noting that other classes have resources which require a short or long rest to recharge. For example fighters have Second Wind and Action Surge -- and superiority dice if you take that path.


Also, not necessarily obvious but important: warlocks get fewer spell slots, but they replenish on a short rest rather than a long one. I really hope Larian increases the limit on short rests (and makes long rests more of a big deal), because this'll all become more apparent and important -- as it should be.

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Originally Posted by GloriousZote
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Spells scale significantly at higher levels. But again, cantrips (level 0 spells) can be cast without limit, so there is no need to use your mages as archers.
Well actually, bows/crossbows shoot in an arc, and spells shoot in a straight line, you can hit enemies behind some cover whereas a spell can't.


Depends on the cantrip. Sacred flame "descends from above" and ignores cover.

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Also, the spells are designed to be able to significantly swing the tide in a combat. Sleep, Hold person, Faery Fire, etc. are supposed to have major impact on combat. However, Larian has fiddled so much with the levels, HP, saves, and what-have-you that the value of spells are currently rather low.

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