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I actually have so much feedback that i could probably fill a few pages so i thought i'd start with one of the more egregious examples that i haven't seen feedback on yet: the rogue

rogues in 5e are known to be quite strong before lvl 5 and strongly fall of from there. good this game doesn't go beyond 4th level because they got nerfed into the ground.


first level they get:

sneak attack.
which should apply automatically as long as it's conditions apply. now that it is a specific action it doesnt apply on offhand attacks which it should! incidentally offhand attacks don't get your ability modifier to hit. probably a bug but this would also nerf sneak attack. additionally opportunity attacks should apply sneak attack which they do not; another nerf.

expertise
that's right! what would rogues be without expertise? double proficiency bonus to two skills of your choice! oh there is no expertise? really. why?


second level:

cunning action
this defines the play-style of rogues in 5e. dash, disengage and hide as a bonus action. oh right everybody can do this now. silly me!


third level:

your sneak attack gets better! this is how your damage scales as a rogue! even though it scales poorly it makes a big difference. but it doesn't in this game. it doesn't get better.

subclasses
arcane trickster! you get an improved mage hand and two other cantrips! (you don't get mage hand you have to chose it) really strong because you can choose booming blade and such! (no you can't)
or thief were you get really good at climbing. jk! you "master the art of falling" no joke that's what it says. wtf.
and you can use items with your bonus action! o wait everybody can do that too. just give him two bonus actions. there fixed.(actually not that bad of a fix though)


as you can see, it's not just nerfs that rub me the wrong way. it's also the loss of flavour. expertise and cunning action are defining traits of rogues. at least they could be.

rogues don't actually feel that weak right now because, as i said, they are really good before level 5. but at 5th level pretty much everyone's power level doubles and rogues get like 25% better. that'd be a problem.


look forward to next episode where i will talk about spells!

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You might want to change the title of your thread. Calling yourself an 'expert' is asking for trouble.

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Summon the council!

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
You might want to change the title of your thread. Calling yourself an 'expert' is asking for trouble.

oh i know! give me all the trouble! the drama! the romance! the bloodshed!

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I always play rogues. But as much as I am enjoying BG3 I can't for the life of me see any reason to be a rogue over a ranger. The ranger can do nearly everything the rogue can, and more, and what it can't do doesn't compete at all to the 'more' that it can.

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Originally Posted by nizanegusa
Originally Posted by Sadurian
You might want to change the title of your thread. Calling yourself an 'expert' is asking for trouble.

oh i know! give me all the trouble! the drama! the romance! the bloodshed!


Sneak attack doesn't automatically apply to the first hit that lands, or ever has to apply if you don't want it to, for instance laugh


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Although Sadurian is right that calling yourself an "expert" is asking for nitpicks, your crticism of the rogue is spot on. It's...fine levels 1-4 right now, but not nearly as good as it should be. If nothing changes, post level 5 they will be terrible. I genuinely don't understand sneak attack not scaling. It must be a bug, right?

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Originally Posted by nizanegusa
Originally Posted by Sadurian
You might want to change the title of your thread. Calling yourself an 'expert' is asking for trouble.

oh i know! give me all the trouble! the drama! the romance! the bloodshed!

You're out of luck if you're looking for romance from me. I'm not I'm up for the bloodshed, either, come to that. Maybe I could pluck an eyebrow hair or something?

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rogue imho is the best argument against action economy refactoring: sounds cool, something breaks

edit: actually in pnp you can choose when to proc sneak attack since you can
Quote
Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an Attack[...]

this implementation of sneak attack is rather clucky but pnp legal

Last edited by kasakoff; 20/10/20 05:25 PM.
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Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.

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Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.



its not all about DPR tho.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.



its not all about DPR tho.


With rogues, it kind of is.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.



its not all about DPR tho.


With rogues, it kind of is.



Expertise?

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additionally opportunity attacks should apply sneak attack which they do not; another nerf.


Should they? As far as I know, you can only make one sneak attack per turn which would include attacks as reactions (AoO).

Definitely agree on the changed Cunning Action and lack of Expertise as a pretty big nerf to rogues though.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.


its not all about DPR tho.

You'd be surprised how many D&D players would disagree.

I've had long arguments (in real life and online) about how I prefer to play an 'interesting' but weaker character, and been roundly berated for not calculating the DPR and maximising and therefore being a burden to the rest of the party.

I even dared play a social rogue once. The horror!

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i wonder how broken 2 bonus actions can be multiclassing anywhere else: battlemaster? quickening sorcerer? Expecially if they dont stick to pnp leveled spell limitations: 3 fireballs per round sounds a good 3 levels dips to me

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I kinda feel like while this game takes a lot from D&D 5e... I think that expecting it to be 1:1 from 5e is kinda silly. Taking Inspiration from 5e is awesome but it should still be its own game.

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
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additionally opportunity attacks should apply sneak attack which they do not; another nerf.


Should they? As far as I know, you can only make one sneak attack per turn which would include attacks as reactions (AoO).

Once per turn, no matter how many Attacks you have, and it has to be with a Finesse or ranged weapon.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.



its not all about DPR tho.


With rogues, it kind of is.



Expertise?


Ive yet to have anything that is a typical rogue expertise skill come into play. I can pickpocket, disarm, and lockpick everything pretty much first try. EA, at least, is pure combat for rogues.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.


its not all about DPR tho.

You'd be surprised how many D&D players would disagree.

I've had long arguments (in real life and online) about how I prefer to play an 'interesting' but weaker character, and been roundly berated for not calculating the DPR and maximising and therefore being a burden to the rest of the party.

I even dared play a social rogue once. The horror!


Right? I can imagine nothing more horrible than playing DnD and the thing that matters most is DPR. by that point, I might as well not play an RPG

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