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Originally Posted by Kendaric
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additionally opportunity attacks should apply sneak attack which they do not; another nerf.


Should they? As far as I know, you can only make one sneak attack per turn which would include attacks as reactions (AoO).

Definitely agree on the changed Cunning Action and lack of Expertise as a pretty big nerf to rogues though.


Reactions are out of turn and you can sneak attack on them.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Right? I can imagine nothing more horrible than playing DnD and the thing that matters most is DPR. by that point, I might as well not play an RPG

There are people who take these things terribly seriously, and somehow personally. If their character is not maximised, it apparently means that they are not fully-rounded human beings.

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
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additionally opportunity attacks should apply sneak attack which they do not; another nerf.


Should they? As far as I know, you can only make one sneak attack per turn which would include attacks as reactions (AoO).

Definitely agree on the changed Cunning Action and lack of Expertise as a pretty big nerf to rogues though.


once per turn includes enemy turns! otherwise it would say once per round.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.


its not all about DPR tho.

You'd be surprised how many D&D players would disagree.

I've had long arguments (in real life and online) about how I prefer to play an 'interesting' but weaker character, and been roundly berated for not calculating the DPR and maximising and therefore being a burden to the rest of the party.

I even dared play a social rogue once. The horror!


Right? I can imagine nothing more horrible than playing DnD and the thing that matters most is DPR. by that point, I might as well not play an RPG


That isn't the issue. You cant use any of that in this game. I play arcane trickster, still don't need expertise. Yes, they need to add it to the game, but I hardly think its doing anyone a disservice in EA. What are the times you have been shaking your fists and saying "Darn you just normal having proficiency!!"


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Originally Posted by Orbax

Reactions are out of turn and you can sneak attack on them.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/


Interesting, suddenly our rogue becomes a lot more effective in our PnP group smile

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Originally Posted by About47Pandas
I kinda feel like while this game takes a lot from D&D 5e... I think that expecting it to be 1:1 from 5e is kinda silly. Taking Inspiration from 5e is awesome but it should still be its own game.


i agree with you.
but since it is based on 5e i criticised it on that merit. if bg3 manages to make more good changes than bad ones i would be happy!
there are good changes in there but as of yet they are overshadowed by bad ones in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by Orbax

Reactions are out of turn and you can sneak attack on them.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/


Interesting, suddenly our rogue becomes a lot more effective in our PnP group smile


Not many people I run into know that one haha, nothing in the description of it really implies you can - its more that they said it isnt the case that you can't as they didn't expand it further than "your turn" restrictions. I didn't know it for a long time either!


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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.


its not all about DPR tho.

You'd be surprised how many D&D players would disagree.

I've had long arguments (in real life and online) about how I prefer to play an 'interesting' but weaker character, and been roundly berated for not calculating the DPR and maximising and therefore being a burden to the rest of the party.

I even dared play a social rogue once. The horror!


Wow. I'm just ... wow. Half the point of the rogue is its utility. That's where like most of the fun is. I can't even imagine being at a table with players who would berate you for not maximizing DPS in a roleplaying game. When I'm at the table with my dice how much damage I can squeeze out is the last thing on my list of character building.

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Originally Posted by eikona

Wow. I'm just ... wow. Half the point of the rogue is its utility. That's where like most of the fun is. I can't even imagine being at a table with players who would berate you for not maximizing DPS in a roleplaying game. When I'm at the table with my dice how much damage I can squeeze out is the last thing on my list of character building.


Depends on the table /shrug. Some are combat, some are RP. Ive DMed games where the players didn't get into a single combat for 5 sessions. Also had a single encounter run 7 hours. Well rounded is usually a good way to go, or at least target specific things because you know your DM likes to torment you and you decide to foil their nefarious plots. In a game like this though, that performance expertise is likely to crop up less than in a game where a DM puts things in that would require performance because they like your character and want you to have fun.

Last edited by Orbax; 20/10/20 05:54 PM.

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Rogues and Monks should be the only classes who can disengage as a bonus action. Letting everyone do it makes these classes so much less special. It makes no sense and definitely doesn't make the game more fun.

Magic is also fun! Give half Wizard spell progression to every class? And then give Wizards Action Surge in return because that's a LOT of fun. See where I'm going? Probably Larian hates classes and thinks their DOS system was better. Anyway back to Rogues...

You should be able to attempt sneak attack again with off-hand if main hand misses. That's about the only reason to use two weapons.

And sometimes I don't want to sneak attack on my first attack. Maybe there's a 1hp enemy to kill so I can move and sneak attack someone else.


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The expert has spoken

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Actually Thief has top DPR now thanks to additional bonus action.


its not all about DPR tho.

You'd be surprised how many D&D players would disagree.

I've had long arguments (in real life and online) about how I prefer to play an 'interesting' but weaker character, and been roundly berated for not calculating the DPR and maximising and therefore being a burden to the rest of the party.

I even dared play a social rogue once. The horror!



I think that way of thinking started to really blossom during 3.0. 3.0 was really a powergamer system, very set up to min/max.


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Doesn't matter when any class can exploit hide/stealth like hell in this game wink

Last edited by JDCrenton; 20/10/20 11:32 PM.
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The Rogue really has had much of its flavor stripped away by giving jump/disengage as a bonus to everyone. Just changing that would help solidify the identity of the class in this game.

Expertise really should be in the game, too. Whether it's "needed" to pick locks is not the point - it allows you to further identify what kind of rogue the character is. It also solidifies the Rogue as a highly skilled character.

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Originally Posted by lvl20DM
The Rogue really has had much of its flavor stripped away by giving jump/disengage as a bonus to everyone. Just changing that would help solidify the identity of the class in this game.

Expertise really should be in the game, too. Whether it's "needed" to pick locks is not the point - it allows you to further identify what kind of rogue the character is. It also solidifies the Rogue as a highly skilled character.


this pretty much sums it up.

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Originally Posted by lvl20DM
The Rogue really has had much of its flavor stripped away by giving jump/disengage as a bonus to everyone. Just changing that would help solidify the identity of the class in this game.

Expertise really should be in the game, too. Whether it's "needed" to pick locks is not the point - it allows you to further identify what kind of rogue the character is. It also solidifies the Rogue as a highly skilled character.


There are other classes that get's expertise too, so yeah it needs in.


Just a not on Sneak Attack. I have criticized it before too, because it doesn't seem to be upgrading, and all the other poor implementations of it. (Ranged sneack attack not going off when you are: Sneaking, getting a back attack, while eleveated and the enemy is threatened.)

But I do actually think the improved sneak attack in. I looked at the combat log after a SA hit and it had this very very weird calculation going on where it checked your level and substracted and added something. And then multiplied the attack by two. I checked because the attack did 12 damage (max damage on 2d6)

So it seems to me they are doing 1d6*2 and not 2d6. If this is the case it's actually a huge buff, but it's not described anywhere... and while it is a buff it seems like a buff that will become very swingy over time.

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Originally Posted by nizanegusa
really strong because you can choose booming blade and such! (no you can't)


I agree with most of your sentiment, but just have to say: BB/GFB are not PHB spells. I know they are popular and I would hope they add spells outside the PHB (XGTE, too. I need toll the dead^^), but this is probably why BB is not available.

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I noticed that too on the sneak attack calculation - kind of an odd choice. This also seems to interact with critical hits in crazy ways, with the sneak attack damage often being maximized.

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Originally Posted by KingTiki
Originally Posted by nizanegusa
really strong because you can choose booming blade and such! (no you can't)


I agree with most of your sentiment, but just have to say: BB/GFB are not PHB spells. I know they are popular and I would hope they add spells outside the PHB (XGTE, too. I need toll the dead^^), but this is probably why BB is not available.


Ironically BB/GFB is from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. While I don't need the Purple Dragon Knight, I'd sure like those two spells!

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Pretty much agree with everything you said here, except your take on sneak attack. While I agree sneak attack should proc on offhand hits, having sneak attack as a separate key to a normal attack gives player's the choice to use sneak attack damage which is what the PHB specifically states, "you can..." Also, offhand attacks don't proc your ability modifier because you need the fighting style: two-weapon fighting.

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