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Originally Posted by Kadajko


Why do you need the game to acknowledge your actions as good or evil? You don't know yourself?



Why do you want to complete quests? Achieve milestones? Isn't enough for you knowing you did something without some journal update or acknowledgement from the game. I mean why not just let all that stuff reside in your head?

Or for that matter why do you need someone to keep score in any game?

The answer of course is that's the game -- whatever it the game is be it making a sentence that only uses words that start with the letter 'b' or only choosing "Lawful Neutral" responses in a dialogue you want to want to know how you've scored. That's the challenge, can you see through the eyes of your character. I don't really think that "oh I just did something awful but in my head I had a good reason for it" so sophisticated role playing. Neither do I mean to insult but I tend to think that style of tends to spring from "I want imagine doing terrible things but not feel bad about" instead of "let's really get into this role" mentality.


Yeah, people will disagree. They will think the umpire called a strike when he should have called a ball. People will discuss the decision, they will lobby to have the decision changed but that's not a bad thing. I mean why is food for conversation bad?

PoE's reputation system was fine but not as interesting as alignment IMO. Less sophisticated, more real to life, less fantastic. I luurved the PoE1 story but the distopian fantasy world. Eh, it was okay, not as good as Faerun.

Oh, yeah. @kanisatha and I are different and we don't communicate outside this forum. I recognize him from the beamdog forums and that's it. (or did before I got myself banned for arguing with a mod) We generally agree on alignment.

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Originally Posted by Genky

Neo-nazis exist, therefore there are people who disagree, no matter how crazy and unlogical it seems to you and me.
That's the whole point I was making.
And no, don't take this way out of context, it's just a radical example to make my point as clear as possible, it doesn't have to be that far-fetched in order to be open for interpretation, relative and subjective.


Fair enough. I respect that position. Trolls and online fascists ruin conversations, no question. But that shouldn't keep us from having conversations.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Kadajko


Why do you need the game to acknowledge your actions as good or evil? You don't know yourself?



Why do you want to complete quests? Achieve milestones? Isn't enough for you knowing you did something without some journal update or acknowledgement from the game. I mean why not just let all that stuff reside in your head?

Or for that matter why do you need someone to keep score in any game?

The answer of course is that's the game -- whatever it the game is be it making a sentence that only uses words that start with the letter 'b' or only choosing "Lawful Neutral" responses in a dialogue you want to want to know how you've scored. That's the challenge, can you see through the eyes of your character. I don't really think that "oh I just did something awful but in my head I had a good reason for it" so sophisticated role playing. Neither do I mean to insult but I tend to think that style of tends to spring from "I want imagine doing terrible things but not feel bad about" instead of "let's really get into this role" mentality.


Yeah, people will disagree. They will think the umpire called a strike when he should have called a ball. People will discuss the decision, they will lobby to have the decision changed but that's not a bad thing. I mean why is food for conversation bad?

PoE's reputation system was fine but not as interesting as alignment IMO. Less sophisticated, more real to life, less fantastic. I luurved the PoE1 story but the distopian fantasy world. Eh, it was okay, not as good as Faerun.

Oh, yeah. @kanisatha and I are different and we don't communicate outside this forum. I recognize him from the beamdog forums and that's it. (or did before I got myself banned for arguing with a mod) We generally agree on alignment.


I don't understand your analogy. I do quests to have fun, to experience a story. I need a journal updates because I don't have perfect memory, it is a reminder,otherwise I wouldn't need it.

Do you actually look at alignment as a score? As a mini game? Do you not care about what you want to do, so long as it falls under particular alignment? That's not a challenge.

I don't know what else to say tbh. Like I said, to each their own ofc, but my attitude towards alignment is extremely negative, I see alignment as a relic and a detriment that always diminishes roleplay opportunities when it is present. My opinion is just opposite, for example I loved pathfinder kingmaker, amazing game, but I HATED the fact that alignment was present in it, the game for me would be much better without it.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
[quote=KillerRabbit][quote=Kadajko]
I don't know what else to say tbh. Like I said, to each their own ofc, but my attitude towards alignment is extremely negative, I see alignment as a relic and a detriment that always diminishes roleplay opportunities when it is present. My opinion is just opposite, for example I loved pathfinder kingmaker, amazing game, but I HATED the fact that alignment was present in it, the game for me would be much better without it.


I'm with you on this one.

RPG's shouldn't be about "scoring points" and it feels weirdly arbitrary to attribute "Good or Bad" points depending on your choices.
Perhaps I'm overlooking the fact that people love these games *because* that reduce complex situations and relationships to "Good vs Evil".

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Originally Posted by Kadajko


Do you actually look at alignment as a score? As a mini game? Do you not care about what you want to do, so long as it falls under particular alignment? That's not a challenge.


It's not a mini game so much as a major feature of the game. Or much of *the* game. The point of a role playing game is, well, can you play this role? Can you respond not as you, person who doesn't believe in objective morality (like most people in our cynical world), but instead as someone who lives in a world where good and evil are as real as gravity and oxygen.

@quietwulf I would argue that the concepts are actually less reductionistic because they incorporate elements that are absent our modern, secular worldview. Manicheanism might be a mistake in the modern world but to ignore them in a world with gods is mistake -- Lathander and Selune are one part of the Manichean divide.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Kadajko


Why do you need the game to acknowledge your actions as good or evil? You don't know yourself?



Why do you want to complete quests? Achieve milestones? Isn't enough for you knowing you did something without some journal update or acknowledgement from the game. I mean why not just let all that stuff reside in your head?

Or for that matter why do you need someone to keep score in any game?

The answer of course is that's the game -- whatever it the game is be it making a sentence that only uses words that start with the letter 'b' or only choosing "Lawful Neutral" responses in a dialogue you want to want to know how you've scored. That's the challenge, can you see through the eyes of your character. I don't really think that "oh I just did something awful but in my head I had a good reason for it" so sophisticated role playing. Neither do I mean to insult but I tend to think that style of tends to spring from "I want imagine doing terrible things but not feel bad about" instead of "let's really get into this role" mentality.


Yeah, people will disagree. They will think the umpire called a strike when he should have called a ball. People will discuss the decision, they will lobby to have the decision changed but that's not a bad thing. I mean why is food for conversation bad?

PoE's reputation system was fine but not as interesting as alignment IMO. Less sophisticated, more real to life, less fantastic. I luurved the PoE1 story but the distopian fantasy world. Eh, it was okay, not as good as Faerun.

Oh, yeah. @kanisatha and I are different and we don't communicate outside this forum. I recognize him from the beamdog forums and that's it. (or did before I got myself banned for arguing with a mod) We generally agree on alignment.

Well said. Yes this is exactly it. When I make "good" decisions or take "good" actions, I want the game (through the game world) to acknowledge my decisions and actions as exactly that. And this is because it is a game, not just me sitting around engaging in some personal daydreaming. A game is about trying to achieve certain goals within the game. In the case of an RPG, that means getting certain results to the quests we find, getting a certain result to the main story, etc. We even care about what kind of ending we get in the game. We care about our end-slides and what those say about our game. So achieving objectives and goals is integral to playing a game. At least it is for me. And without being able to achieve those goals (the game telling me: hey, you did a bunch of "good" things), the game is a waste of my valuable time.

Completely off-topic, but interesting note there about getting banned from the Beamdog forum. I've recently come close to being banned too, for the same reason as you which is arguing with the mods about their bias and lack of fairness in how they respond to different posters. The mods there have a God complex. But it also makes me appreciate how good the mods are on this forum.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

@quietwulf I would argue that the concepts are actually less reductionistic because they incorporate elements that are absent our modern, secular worldview. Manicheanism might be a mistake in the modern world but to ignore them in a world with gods is mistake -- Lathander and Selune are one part of the Manichean divide.


Wait, what?

Are you saying that a system that forces everything into "Good","Neutral" or "Evil" boxes is somehow less reductive than a system that acknowledges that morality is far more nuanced than that?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Originally Posted by kanisatha

When I make "good" decisions or take "good" actions, I want the game (through the game world) to acknowledge my decisions and actions as exactly that.


Out of interest, have you played any of the Witcher series of games? I mention them because there are seldom "good" or "bad" choices. You're simply left with choices and consequences. There's often "good" things about your decisions, but often "bad" things as well. The world isn't a perfect place and problems don't always have clean solutions.

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To dip a bit into my real feelings here, I believe in an absolute morality...that right and wrong exist....but I also believe the world is messy and it's REALLY hard to see what is right and what is wrong with certainty all the time. There are LOTS of variables in life and an action that is the right action in situation A could be the wrong action in situation B. That's where the shades of grey lie, not in the idea that morality is relative, but in the idea that is really hard to be certain what is right and what is wrong in a situation combined with the fact that holding to convictions in a meaningful way is a hard thing to do. We're prone to get tangled up into the wording and language of our convictions because that's easier to do than to analyze each event and consider what the true spirit of your convictions demands.

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Originally Posted by Quietwulf


Wait, what?

Are you saying that a system that forces everything into "Good","Neutral" or "Evil" boxes is somehow less reductive than a system that acknowledges that morality is far more nuanced than that?

Am I understanding you correctly?



Yes, to the degree that it features additional factors into its analysis it is, by definition, more complex and therefore more sophisticated. It isn't reducing, it's adding the divine element. Additional factors make it more sophisticated. What seems right to me and what seems right to my god.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophisticateds

I know what you are saying -- you are that in the real world Manichean thinking is less complex because it reduces and simplifies. I'm saying that doesn't apply here because Faerun is actually a Manichean universe and has factors you are not accounting for.

Kanistha can answer for himself -- I've never really been interested in the Witcher. Don't like first person shooters or sword simulations. Same goes for Skyrim. Big fan of the Elric series which the Witcher plagiarized.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
I think moving away from Alignment is a good thing. I'd much rather shape my character as I see fit and pick my choices based on my or my roleplayed moral compass - or simply often from a pragmatic standpoint.

Sometimes good choices lead to very obvious grim outcomes and/or evil choices end up saving/preventing more carnage. Same goes for evil side - sometimes good choices simply perfectly align with your personal desires or lust for power and influence given the situation. I much rather be context driven, as opposed to be commanded by that one off choice at level 1.

This exactly. Alignment seems to me to be something that people panic over and constantly check to see if they are making the "correct" choices rather than actually playing the game. Glad it isn't focused on in this one.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
It's not a mini game so much as a major feature of the game. Or much of *the* game. The point of a role playing game is, well, can you play this role? Can you respond not as you, person who doesn't believe in objective morality (like most people in our cynical world), but instead as someone who lives in a world where good and evil are as real as gravity and oxygen.

I rarely respond as myself in these games. I play the character according to how I feel they would act in a situation and rarely is a situation black or white, there are always shades of grey.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Well said. Yes this is exactly it. When I make "good" decisions or take "good" actions, I want the game (through the game world) to acknowledge my decisions and actions as exactly that. And this is because it is a game, not just me sitting around engaging in some personal daydreaming. A game is about trying to achieve certain goals within the game. In the case of an RPG, that means getting certain results to the quests we find, getting a certain result to the main story, etc. We even care about what kind of ending we get in the game. We care about our end-slides and what those say about our game. So achieving objectives and goals is integral to playing a game. At least it is for me. And without being able to achieve those goals (the game telling me: hey, you did a bunch of "good" things), the game is a waste of my valuable time.
.

I care about the journey, not some specific ending to the game. I want to do what needs to be done at the time rather than having to follow a specific path that is predetermined. That to me is boring and shallow.

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I rarely respond as myself in these games. I play the character according to how I feel they would act in a situation and rarely is a situation black or white, there are always shades of grey.


Which means you enjoy playing neutral characters. Helm and Tyr do not see shades of grey. Helmites see the law, and good or bad the law is law. Lathander sees the light of a new day with new possibilities for good works everywhere.

If everything is a shade of grey -- which I find to be drab color -- the game hasn't implemented alignment.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit


Which means you enjoy playing neutral characters. Helm and Tyr do not see shades of grey. Helmites see the law, and good or bad the law is law. Lathander sees the light of a new day with new possibilities for good works everywhere.


They do not see shades of grey, but with logic and a high persuasion role I could change their perspective and convince them that an act that they previously have seen as lawful good is actually not, and vice verse,it wouldn't be grey but they would change their opinion 180.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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I rarely respond as myself in these games. I play the character according to how I feel they would act in a situation and rarely is a situation black or white, there are always shades of grey.


Which means you enjoy playing neutral characters. Helm and Tyr do not see shades of grey. Helmites see the law, and good or bad the law is law. Lathander sees the light of a new day with new possibilities for good works everywhere.

If everything is a shade of grey -- which I find to be drab color -- the game hasn't implemented alignment.

I do find neutral characters to fit me the best. smile Don't like the same sort of grey always though, Lighter and darker shades are always nice and occasional white and black. I just hate those as the only two options, so boring. frown I like to have to think carefully about actions rather than stuck taking a predictable path.

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I always play the same character in my games loosely based on my beliefs and through the ages and mutliple playthroughs it mostly changes only in nuances. That is aided by mechanics like reputation and Karma that have direct consequences in the in-game world and give you a clear political/social and cultural framework of what is acceptable. So my in-born pragmatism also kicks in that I do not generally want to get in trouble with the law.

BG2 (and the alignment system with that) and BG3 do not give me that framework, not enough at least. Reputation at least is mostly irrelevant, and moral choices often have little consequences, yet can net you a huge reward. So the evil choice is also often the pragmatic choice. An alignment system really only works for me, when the prerequisites and consequences are clear, so I can make knowledgeable choices instead of educated guesses.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Genky

Neo-nazis exist, therefore there are people who disagree, no matter how crazy and unlogical it seems to you and me.
That's the whole point I was making.
And no, don't take this way out of context, it's just a radical example to make my point as clear as possible, it doesn't have to be that far-fetched in order to be open for interpretation, relative and subjective.


Fair enough. I respect that position. Trolls and online fascists ruin conversations, no question. But that shouldn't keep us from having conversations.

My reply was about morality, clearly neo-nazis have a very different moral compass as opposed to those who aren't, or they wouldn't be one in the first place. Therefore people who would agree or disagree with certain actions being super logically (to you and I) good or evil do exist.
Like the example I made of having to decide the fate of the reformed criminal that the commoners want punished, a lot of people would believe giving them that extra chance is the -good- thing, but you'd be surprised how many people would also see not giving them mercy is the -good- thing. This is why this is all very subjective and therefore I just don't like alignment being fixed and excluding you from certain decisions, I would rather all decisions and consequences being on the go and forming your character's reputation/alignment/whatever through individual actions.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by zeel
The only time alignment is relevant in 5e as a game mechanic, is certain subclasses/races (I think) needing you to be evil, or some spells who change damage type if you're evil vs good.
For roleplay choices in conversations, alignments could maybe be implemented, with the tag system and all, but I don't really think it's necessary.


This is false. There are no subclass or race alignment restrictions in 5E. Practically, some of the Paladin subclasses require you to be good to maintain your oath, but alignment is never mentioned in the rules.

There are no spells that affect alignments in any way.



false. spirit guardians ". On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage."

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Alignment was great.

It prevented a lot of terrible role playing, contrivances and contradiction as well as meta gaming and it facilitated better role playing and actual thought going into a character. That being said most people don't understand alignment or their definitions so it is not a popular concept. In a game like BG3 where role playing is bare bones to non existant I don't think it will be missed.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Alignment was great.

It prevented a lot of terrible role playing, contrivances and contradiction as well as meta gaming and it facilitated better role playing and actual thought going into a character.


How? You realize this is circular reasoning right? If there is no alignment there is no standard for what is ''good'' or ''bad'' roleplaying, it's up to you to decide. Alignment can only help to roleplay itself better.

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Originally Posted by Genky
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Genky

Neo-nazis exist, therefore there are people who disagree, no matter how crazy and unlogical it seems to you and me.
That's the whole point I was making.
And no, don't take this way out of context, it's just a radical example to make my point as clear as possible, it doesn't have to be that far-fetched in order to be open for interpretation, relative and subjective.


Fair enough. I respect that position. Trolls and online fascists ruin conversations, no question. But that shouldn't keep us from having conversations.

My reply was about morality, clearly neo-nazis have a very different moral compass as opposed to those who aren't, or they wouldn't be one in the first place. Therefore people who would agree or disagree with certain actions being super logically (to you and I) good or evil do exist.
Like the example I made of having to decide the fate of the reformed criminal that the commoners want punished, a lot of people would believe giving them that extra chance is the -good- thing, but you'd be surprised how many people would also see not giving them mercy is the -good- thing. This is why this is all very subjective and therefore I just don't like alignment being fixed and excluding you from certain decisions, I would rather all decisions and consequences being on the go and forming your character's reputation/alignment/whatever through individual actions.


This is basically where I stand myself too. And this is why I've always preferred the warhammer fantasy universe over D&D.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Alignment was great.

It prevented a lot of terrible role playing, contrivances and contradiction as well as meta gaming and it facilitated better role playing and actual thought going into a character.

I disagree so, so much. To the point of actually believing the mirror opposite of your views.

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