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I posted in another thread, but adding here for visibility. Unless its some kind of plot point, she's missing a stat point. Her stats begin as
Str 14
Dex 9
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

When you can start with
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

Its stupid to use the half elf bonus point on dex rather than strength, given that it costs more to go from a 13 to 14 than a 8 to a 9. Fix it already Larian. I've heard of min-max, but rarely min-min lol. Whats next, a fighter with the light armor feat?

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Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.

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Maybe she regains her stats as she learns her past, seems very plausible with how her story is going so far.

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


There's a difference between not optimized and intentionally gimped. Taking an extra -1 to initiative, AC, missile attacks, stealth/sleight of hand (which she's trained in!), dex saves, etc for the lulz is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.

Not in this way. They had suboptimal builds, low stats, or strange stat arrays for their class-this is just poor bookkeeping. No one would intentionally build this way-if t were a plot point that you had a low stat, you would either directly and obviously gimp it or not put a bonus in it at all. She effectively gets nothing for that point; it would make more sense for her to have an 8 DEX and a 14 CON instead if she was supposed to be clumsy.

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Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


She's just using the default stats distribution of the half-elf cleric in character creation...

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.

I mean, you rolled for stats in BG2. Most people just converted the roll into points, but strictly speaking if you kept the rolled stats you ended up with about what a companion would have. They didn't have to let you do that, it was an optional rule.

The difference here is that instead of it arising organically from the rules, this is, again, a bookkeeping mistake.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


She's just using the default stats distribution of the half-elf cleric in character creation...

True, but that just means the default array is also wrong.

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.


It's not random though. The character is a trickster cleric, a subclass that relies heavily on subterfuge to fulfill her motives. She would have gone through some sort of training to become good at it. You don't just get to decide you level up from commoner lv0 to fighter lv1 and suddenly you are proficient in heavy armor and martial weapons. You had to go through training, which naturally increased your STR/DEX/CON and explains why you would be better at those things than other classes generally. The same thing applies to someone that worships trickery dieties. They would naturally pick up some ability to perform subterfuge and deceit, as it's the generally the main goal of the subclass. She doesn't have to be a master of stealth as she has magic, but she shouldn't have a negative modifier. I doubt Leira would grant powers to someone that couldn't sneak past a blind man.

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Originally Posted by SilverSaint
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.

I mean, you rolled for stats in BG2. Most people just converted the roll into points, but strictly speaking if you kept the rolled stats you ended up with about what a companion would have. They didn't have to let you do that, it was an optional rule.

The difference here is that instead of it arising organically from the rules, this is, again, a bookkeeping mistake.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


She's just using the default stats distribution of the half-elf cleric in character creation...

True, but that just means the default array is also wrong.



Alora in BG had a total stat score of 70. It was impossible for you to roll lower than 75 in character creation. BG 2 also had companions with lower stat scores than it was possible to make your player character. Seems like it's intentional so that you have to find a way to work around it if you want to use them

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Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.


It's not random though. The character is a trickster cleric, a subclass that relies heavily on subterfuge to fulfill her motives. She would have gone through some sort of training to become good at it. You don't just get to decide you level up from commoner lv0 to fighter lv1 and suddenly you are proficient in heavy armor and martial weapons. You had to go through training, which naturally increased your STR/DEX/CON and explains why you would be better at those things than other classes generally. The same thing applies to someone that worships trickery dieties. They would naturally pick up some ability to perform subterfuge and deceit, as it's the generally the main goal of the subclass. She doesn't have to be a master of stealth as she has magic, but she shouldn't have a negative modifier. I doubt Leira would grant powers to someone that couldn't sneak past a blind man.


The lore reasoning is good actually. The point about Leira is probably correct lol

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Originally Posted by SilverSaint
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Cernd the druid was the exact same. Had a 9 in dex, 13 in strength, 13 in con. The difference in companion ability scores was kinda crazy in BG 1 and 2 also. There was a 28 point difference between the characters with the most and least stats. Think if it as they rolled for the companions stats instead of point buying. More random so your party isn't perfect, it's random, flawed people that you have to use to the best of your ability. There will also be the option to make your own custom party of awesomeness, either a full party or 3 man in case they don't let us leave custom companions in camp so that you can still do all the companion quests.

I mean, you rolled for stats in BG2. Most people just converted the roll into points, but strictly speaking if you kept the rolled stats you ended up with about what a companion would have. They didn't have to let you do that, it was an optional rule.

The difference here is that instead of it arising organically from the rules, this is, again, a bookkeeping mistake.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


She's just using the default stats distribution of the half-elf cleric in character creation...

True, but that just means the default array is also wrong.



Alora in BG had a total stat score of 70. It was impossible for you to roll lower than 75 in character creation. BG 2 also had companions with lower stat scores than it was possible to make your player character. Seems like it's intentional so that you have to find a way to work around it if you want to use them

Alora at least has an ideal array for her class though (or rather, high DEX, which was all that really mattered). And the dice were weighted in your favor in order to ensure you could get some minimum stats as a PC. Regardless, I'm not terribly convinced by this entire argument thread regardless-even if you were right and BG 1/2 had that problem, that would still be problematic and just a holdover from BG2 being wrong.

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Originally Posted by Razielim0420
Check out the companions from BG1 and 2. They are purposefully not optimized.


That's not an excuse, nor is it relevant.

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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
I posted in another thread, but adding here for visibility. Unless its some kind of plot point, she's missing a stat point. Her stats begin as
Str 14
Dex 9
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

When you can start with
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

Its stupid to use the half elf bonus point on dex rather than strength, given that it costs more to go from a 13 to 14 than a 8 to a 9. Fix it already Larian. I've heard of min-max, but rarely min-min lol. Whats next, a fighter with the light armor feat?

Yeah her stats are....odd. Ive seen someone else suggest to swap her Cha and Dex stats which makes sense. But when you factor in the +2 CHA from her racial, the lowest her CHA can be would be a 10 If you substract the 2 points in cha,.1 point that went into WIS and the other (probably) went into STR you indeed have one point more to work with. If you go by point buy.

Standard array like some her have mentioned is probably what Larian went with though. 8 went into dex and was given one of the +1's from half elf class, 10 went into INT, 12 went into CHA coupled with half elf racial bonus makes it 14, 13 went into CON, 14 into STR and the last was 15 fpr WIS which got the last +1 from half elf racial.

That said aside from her good WIS score she doesent have much going for her. The high CHA is nice I suppose but shes a cleric, not a bard. Considering she has no heavy armor training and her sub class basicly resolves around DEX based things her current build makes absolutely no sense. She cant really tank all that well and even with a shield and the best armour I could find for her she struggled to tank effectively.

I think one of the following builds would work alot better:
Point buy: 8 STR, 15+1 for 16 DEX. 14 CON, 10 INT, 15+1 for 16 WIS, 8+2 for 10 CHA. Maybe give her short sword training. It ties into her background as a shady dextrous assasin type and Wyll also has profeciency in a different weapon then his starting weapon. During dnd players can also gain weapon training during down time for a small fee so its nothing special really...
That gives you:
STR8
DEX16
CON14
INT10
WIS16
CHA10

Or if they want to stick with the standard stats: 15 in WIS, +1 from half elf bonus for 16 WIS, 14 in CON, 13 in DEX, +1 from half elf bonus for 14 DEX, 12 in STR, 10 in INT and 8 in CHA that gets +2 from half racial for a CHA of 10.

That gives you:
STR12
DEX14
CON14
INT10
WIS16
CHA10

Both builds are alot more optimized for her class and subclass. Shadowheart doesent really come across like a CHA14 character hence why ive given her the CHA stat of 10. She can sort of try to use her charms but she still comes across as cold and calculated, not really CHA14 material xD If they do want to keep that CHA of 14 though they could lower the dex in the first build to 14 to free up the points for that and for the 2nd they could swap strength and CHA stats. Gives her a STR of 8 but again, she should probably focus on DEX based weapons.

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The Standard Array for D&D 5e is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. This is 27 points using point buy and all the companions so far use this array to generate their ability scores.

Str: 14 = 14 (7 pts)
Dex: 9 = 8 (0 pts) +1
Con: 13 = 13 (5 pts)
Int: 10 = 10 (2 pts)
Wis: 16 = 15 (9 pts) +1
Cha: 14 = 12 (4 pts) +2

9 + 7 + 5 + 4 + 2 + 0 = 27. Shadowheart has no more points to spare.

Could her ability scores be better? Sure. Swapping the 8 in Dex for the 12 from Cha and moving the racial bonus point from Dex into Con would give
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10
She would be less charming but more agile, have a higher AC and more hit points. The Dex and Str could be swapped for a Finesse build, but this would require her to be proficient in at least short swords or rapiers.


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a medium armour cleric with high strength low dex is just a bad idea.
strength gives her melee damage
dex gives her melee damage, ranged damage, ac, initiative, bonus to her prof. skills, better saving throws ...

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Clerics arent really a pure caster class in 5th ed though. (well they are, but not like mages I mean. Eventually they have to get stuck in) so having a good strength stat isent a bad idea if you dont got profeciencies for finesse weapons. Which she sadly doesent.

Hence why I said give her profeciency in short swords or something akin to that. I mean, she could use a dagger I suppose but thats not exactly the most dangerous weapon around either smirk short sword and dagger both are in line with the whole sneaky spy/secretive stuff that she has got going on right now, but at least short sword has a little bit more oompf. Mind you difference between 1D4 and 1D6 damage die is minimal but I feel its appropiate. Mace is also 1D6 so she wouldnt gain more damage either.

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Shadowheart doesent really come across like a CHA14 character hence why ive given her the CHA stat of 10. She can sort of try to use her charms but she still comes across as cold and calculated, not really CHA14 material xD.

Remember that CHA is not being charming, it is the force of your personality. It might manifest as being happy and cheerful and likeable, but might also be brooding and glowering. It is about influence rather than charm.

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i dont particularly have a horse in race, so i wouldnt be opposed to larian adjusting SH stat array (9 dex is not ideal for almost any character type), but i think we should be careful with this line of thinking as i dont think as players we should have free range in adjusting the origin character features (or other companions we may recruit down the road) if we recruit them as companions while in game (i do think that we should be able to multiclass as we want post lvl 1 tho if the character meets the requirements) - even on pc origin character selection i think any adjustments should be limited (ie can only respec into so many alt classes such as wyll could also be a ranger or rogue) bc i still struggle to see why so many resources and all the emphasis was applied to these characters and their own unique origins if the player can just revamp stats, domains, weapon proficiencies, classes, selected spells, etc. as some have mentioned in these forums. additionally, if we can revamp a variety of character features then it just reduces the need for more companions and reduces the strategy that goes into gathering a party of characters with different strengths and weaknesses and classes as you would just be able to create/edit what you need to fit your group - its just not bg3 or dnd. i usually am more pro player agency and choice, but in this case i think it would actually take away from the game than add to it - if such functionality was implemented to me it would feel shortsighted. i do think that the ability to create your own custom party (ideally of 6 - which again the og bg games had) would be a nice feature to have, but when i decide to adventure with npc companions i would want to use the character companions that larian has planned and built for us, otherwise i think it would be a wasted investment of resources that could have been better allocated to other game aspects at that point.

i largely think that the best solution to some issues ppl may have with the current characters available (not likeable, poor stats) is just more # and more varied companions for recruitment both in act 1 and throughout the game at launch so players can find a character that they both like from a roleplay perspective and fits in with the party they are crafting.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Shadowheart doesent really come across like a CHA14 character hence why ive given her the CHA stat of 10. She can sort of try to use her charms but she still comes across as cold and calculated, not really CHA14 material xD.

Remember that CHA is not being charming, it is the force of your personality. It might manifest as being happy and cheerful and likeable, but might also be brooding and glowering. It is about influence rather than charm.

CHA is baiscly the sum of your appearance, mannerism, social skills, etc. Its the whole package. And Shadowheart is about as charming and sociable as a flaming barn. Maybe her looks could give here a few more points or something but overall she isent a very social character.

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