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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.


Being able to save anywhere is also a good hedge against, crashes, being called away for some reason, power outages, hitting the wrong key, A have recently heard a let's player note that he never does anything Ironman because it just opens up vulnerability to far too many technical issues.

Also, I find that a of CRPGs give the dice influence over things that I would tend to never give them influence over if I am running a game. This is largely because a computer can't do spot adjudication of circumstances the way a human GM can, so I understand it, but "make die rolls matter" is sort of undermined in this case for me by the thoughts "that shouldn't be a die roll".

Still, again, I'm not opposed to this being an option at all...let people play the way want to play. I just will absolutely oppose the idea of plentiful saves being removed entirely.


Yeah, there are plenty of good reasons to save a lot. I just picked the main one for me, since I wanted to keep the comment short and sweet.

Forcing the ironman mode on everyone or severely limiting saves usually just amounts to policing the playerbase for enjoying the game wrong, especially in RPGs. It's the cRPG version of not giving the "bad players" of the sports team any playtime on the field.


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This is why this game doesn't need cheesy mechanics in the first place.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 20/10/20 11:07 PM.
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Currently the only mechanics that I don't find great fun are the dialogue-skill rolls...which feel like are implemented inconsistently with some feeling like "oh that's clever" and others feel like "and suddenly I have no agency."

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Question to the poeple that want a limit to avoid save scumming: How is limiting the amount of saves improving your experience of the game?

It is a bit like modding, if you do not like it, don't do it. Noone forces you to play evil either, but taking away these options it mainly limiting other peoples experience.

So, why insist on this? Why do you want to force others into the same experience? Why should I be limited in my choices because of your dislike of the option?

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Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Jilljedin #709692 21/10/20 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Amen to this.
Originally Posted by Jilljedin
Question to the poeple that want a limit to avoid save scumming: How is limiting the amount of saves improving your experience of the game?

It is a bit like modding, if you do not like it, don't do it. Noone forces you to play evil either, but taking away these options it mainly limiting other peoples experience.

So, why insist on this? Why do you want to force others into the same experience? Why should I be limited in my choices because of your dislike of the option?

Yeah it's come up in a few other threads as well. It's a mentality that is completely alien to me. There can be no justification for this mentality of trying to deny something to other people because you don't want that something.

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It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.

Evankhell #709702 21/10/20 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 21/10/20 01:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Don't derail the topic, please.

Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.

Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll! Whether or not my magical ability to routinely roll 5-or-less is really a thing, it's involving a lot of F8 to play it as I would like. But that's just me, "not from a D&D background" feels like my opinion shouldn't carry that much weight and as with others, "may require a mod to sort it out". In fact as I've already been experimenting maybe I should start looking.


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In 5e there are actually "Skill Challenges" that can be designed as tough as a combat encounter depending. With many different skill checks back to back. Usually the DC will vary depending what skill you are using. Having Advantage on a skill you roll 2 D 20s and take the highest roll and then add your mod. It FEELS a lot better to roll the 2 than have it just adjust the DC by 5.

Skill Challenges should also reward just as much and on top of that gained faction which can have an impact later. That is one of the main reasons to play a "Face" Character in a group. Its common if a skill challenge doesnt go as planned you can easily get into combat. The Major difference is that in a tabletop you Cant reload your game because of the different outcome you wanted didnt go as planned. There are always consequences for your actions and you have to adjust to what they are as a group in real time.

Jaz

vometia #709773 21/10/20 02:33 AM
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Indeed, my Main is a Drow with max charisma and I just will not accept that she always ends up at the end of the rope - that's not acceptable, "just by playing the game". If you go for a charismatic character you should not have to reload every time because you lose to the dice multiple times. And tbh: Whatever algorithm they use, it's probably a very flexible one with many more variables and as it looks currently you always take the short end if you invest in that gamesystem.

I don't like it. Just use thresholds that acknowledge investments - with fail-safes. I was fine with that system in DV:OS1 because it's just numbers. In BG3 it's more than that.

Evankhell #709784 21/10/20 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Evankhell
Indeed, my Main is a Drow with max charisma and I just will not accept that she always ends up at the end of the rope - that's not acceptable, "just by playing the game". If you go for a charismatic character you should not have to reload every time because you lose to the dice multiple times. And tbh: Whatever algorithm they use, it's probably a very flexible one with many more variables and as it looks currently you always take the short end if you invest in that gamesystem.

I don't like it. Just use thresholds that acknowledge investments - with fail-safes. I was fine with that system in DV:OS1 because it's just numbers. In BG3 it's more than that.


I wouldn’t assume that most dialogue checks are one time only. I like the dice rolls in convo because you can’t always get what you want. IDK maybe your guys single life was a lot better than mine. I think it adds a lot of replay ability and realism. People aren’t predictable. Dealing with other peoples’ personalities should feel pretty far out of our control.

They need to script in multiple chances at whatever you’re trying to do in dialogue.

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I don't care about the dice rolling in convo. But perhaps you as a player shouldn't save scum. Living with the outcome of the dialog is half the fun of DnD and this game. I have failed many rolls that have lead into a rather hard fight and one a playthough if I win that roll I just keep going. If you're "meta-gaming" the choices to always be the best.... are you really playing the game?

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Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.

If you are advocating for additional difficulty modes to prevent this while also keeping the current system then sure. If you are trying to force your playstyle on others, especially in a mostly single player game, then perhaps you should not be so weak willed in regards to your own game play.

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Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 21/10/20 03:21 AM.
vometia #709894 21/10/20 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Don't derail the topic, please.

Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.

Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll! Whether or not my magical ability to routinely roll 5-or-less is really a thing, it's involving a lot of F8 to play it as I would like. But that's just me, "not from a D&D background" feels like my opinion shouldn't carry that much weight and as with others, "may require a mod to sort it out". In fact as I've already been experimenting maybe I should start looking.


In general, skill rolls in D&D mostly go towards:

Lore checks (Nature, History, Religion, Arcana) and is mostly to determine what your character would know about a thing. (As a long time D&D player, this partly how I determine how much of my knowledge of the game to consider in-character knowledge)

Checks regarding physical challenges like climbing/jumping/etc.

Social interaction, where you generally go to the dice when an argument is such that a particular NPC might go either way. If a player presents a reasonable in-character argument then you might not need the dice, but there's a chance the NPC might not react as the PCs want then you bring the dice in. You might also use the dice if a player isn't sure what to say so the dice act as a crutch for when someone is feeling unconfident about RPing or just tired or whatever reason.


Point is, in general, RP/player choice is priority over dice in social interaction. There are going to be places where a failed die roll results in a terrible thing, but usually you only get to such a point because of successive player decisions.


Which is why I prefer CRPG dialogue trees based die-rolls to function for giving you hints or opening up extra rewards, but not being the primary success/fail of the core plot-element of the dialogue. Which is why I HATE the Kahga dialogue. It should be a puzzle of navigating responses rather than "roll this die and hope the computer is feeling friendly." You've made no decisions to bring you to this point. Your choices or thoughts don't matter. You just have a die roll shoved into your face.

JDCrenton #709901 21/10/20 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.


For all your complaint about D:OS....I've never played either of those games more than the opening cut scene and all I can say about this game is "This is like NWN2 except 5e and I can do the sort of shenanigans I do in the tabletop game because I finally have shove that isn't useless and there's actual environment programmed in."

It feels like all the D&D CRPGs I've played before just with good implementation of options you have in the Tabletop that historically hasn't been put into past games in anyway useful way.

Perhaps the Improved Trip stuff in NWN/NWN2 would have been useful if it had been turn-based instead of RTWP but it wasn't. So in general Trip (the 3.X equivalent to Shove) wasn't really useful in NWN2 while it was very useful in the tabletop.

Now we have a CRPG useful Shove to match the TTRPG useful Shove. So, finally I can have something of the extent of tactics I use when playing a tabletop fighter or ranger in a CRPG.

So, even if you think this is "D:OS" I personally think it's closer to my TTRPG experience.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 21/10/20 05:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.


For all your complaint about D:OS....I've never played either of those games more than the opening cut scene and all I can say about this game is "This is like NWN2 except 5e and I can do the sort of shenanigans I do in the tabletop game because I finally have shove that isn't useless and there's actual environment programmed in."

It feels like all the D&D CRPGs I've played before just with good implementation of options you have in the Tabletop that historically hasn't been put into past games in anyway useful way.

Perhaps the Improved Trip stuff in NWN/NWN2 would have been useful if it had been turn-based instead of RTWP but it wasn't. So in general Trip (the 3.X equivalent to Shove) wasn't really useful in NWN2 while it was very useful in the tabletop.

Now we have a CRPG useful Shove to match the TTRPG useful Shove. So, finally I can have something of the extent of tactics I use when playing a tabletop fighter or ranger in a CRPG.

So, even if you think this is "D:OS" I personally think it's closer to my TTRPG experience.


I find it hard to believe you, otherwise you wouldn't care about me saying anything about D:OS in the first place. It's a game i know from top to bottom and have at least 2k hours invested on it so any assumptions you make about me are pointless too. As you say in your own "Personal Experience". If it feels like i'm somehow telling you to not like this game, well that's just your "Own Perception" or "Take at the Matter". Welcome to the "Real World" where people will have different opinions and preferences.

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Keep it, because again, you can choose to do it or not. Why remove something that is optional.

vometia #710352 21/10/20 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll!

I come from almost 30 years of D&D background and I 100% agree with you here. It's why I have in recent years begun to walk away from D&D and no longer consider D&D to be a good RPG system, for exactly this reason. It has way too much random chance (die rolls) in way too many areas of the game, and that takes away from my character creation and character development choices (possibly even making my choices meaningless).

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