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Ok, so first of all: I am HUGE fan of DOS2. I beat that game like 3 times and I had blast playing it. It was my fav RPG in last years with Witcher 3. So this is not because I don't like DOS2 system/world/mechanics.


This is because I wanted to play DnD. I am playing Table RPGs for 15 years now and for last 3 years I DM and play DnD 5e. I was really excited to play BG3 and really happy that it's Larian that will make it. But I was hoped to play almost 100% 5e system. Maybe 95% as some things can't be that easy put into cRPG.

But currently game is too much like DOS2. And I really don't like it. I feel "cheated" (strong world but hear me out first) that I was supposed to play DnD, not DOS2 1.5. I know it's EA, and I understand game can still be changed/adjusted so I take my chance here to post feedback and hope that Devs will hear me out.

So:

1. Ground elemental effects SHOULD absolutely be not part of DnD game. 5e is specific system that was designed in a way where lasting effects on ground (like Entangle, Mist, Could Kill, Storm Sphere, Spike Growth etc.) require a magical caster and concentration. Because they can be very powerful tools when you combo them with some other spellcasters, melee, grapplers etc. In BG3 this makes tons of spells dull. It's better to just place fire effect on ground from Cantrip and hold enemy with another party member there, than use higher level spell. Not only ground effect IGNORE AC (which is BIG deal in DnD system) but also deals DoT damage (which is also big in 5e system and effects like that require concentration, are in higher slots, like Heat Metal and are mostly single target). Simillar are other elemental effects on ground. They disbalance gameplay, they are easy to exploit and they are against core rules/mechanics of 5e. I would much rather have them removed and make spells do what they do in books so when AOE ground effect happens - it's more signifact and also makes spells feel unique - than having elemental ground spam again. This is not DOS2. It's DND. DnD doesn't need ground element effects, it has spells for that (like Fire Wall, Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, Sickening Radiance and many more).

2. Lowering AC and increasing HP of monsters is not good idea. They have that AC for a reason in 5e. This is to make sure that magic spells that ignore AC (Fireball, Lightning) or can damage high AC enemies (Heat Metal) or control enemies with high AC (Hold Person) are needed and are important in case where melee classes struggle. This is team-based system. AC is for a reason, so Fireball hitting group of enemies with AC 16 on level 5 will be very impactfull. Lowering that AC to 12-13 allows melee to just cut through them with eas (they can kill 1-2 enemies per turn) which makes spells like Fireball very very weak. Not to mention that increasing HP also makes spells like Fireball/Lightning etc. weaker as DEX save already cuts damage in half.

5e went through play-tests and that amount of AC and HP of enemies when compare to melee classes and spells are there to balance it out. This change is ABSOLUTELY not needed. You already have balanced system and play-tested in years. There is not place here for experiments that destroys that balance.
Also argument "less frustrating with misses" is stupid. Misses are part of d20 system. That is the system. You hit or miss. This is not DOS2 where you hit all the time and you balanced game around enemies HP/Shield/Armor bars vs DPS of players- this is not that system!
Also misses should be part of lower levels. Low levels should feel hard and frustrating because that is part of DnD system. Also - you can offset that with giving players options to get more magical items, like weapons +1/2/3, Belts of Strength etc.

Please remember that 5e is designed to be PERFECTLY viable for melee classes (when it comes to AC/HP vs hit chance/damage) without ANY MAGIC ITEMS AT ALL. Giving players a lot of magic items in 1-10 levels in 5e will already make them much better than system recommends to any adjustment to AC/HPs of enemies frtom 5e books is not needed at all. It will only cause never ending cycle or chantes/nerfs/balance patches while you have already handed to you on table a perfectly balanced system (well, of course there are less balanced things, that that is unavoidable in RPGs).

3. Beginning is little too much for 1st level characters and party members you meet - it's very unrealistic for such low level character to survive all that high-level maiheim around. I think character needs level 3 boost so it feel less anti-climatic. Remember that DnD is from "zero to hero". You don't start as hero with 8 HP smile. I would tone down the beginning.

4. Alignments are big part of 5e system. They should have impact and be more important. It's not DOS with it's fluid personality system. Please remember that.

5. You have to make a decision - do you want to go down in history as devs that finally after many years made "another successful DnD cRPG" or devs who were afraid that that won't be enough and you need to also cather to your DOS2 fans and makes sure game looks simillar so they will buy product too. Please realize that some of us DnD fans were waiting very long to play another DnD cRPG. And we want to play that - DnD. It will also prove that DnD is great system for making cRPGs. But it will not happen if you will try to sneak in your favourite mechanics from DOS2.

Divinity system already had it chance and success. And I am happy for it. I will definitely play another Divinity Original Sin game, where I will expect and enjoy all DOS-specific mechanics. You will have chance to play with it as devs again, really. You will make another DOS game.

But please, make this one a DnD game. DnD deserves to be put into cRPG. It doesn't need to be mixed with another system. If there is any system that was tested enough in history of RPGs - that is DnD. And you already have huge DnD fan base. It will be enough, trust me.

Thanks for hearing me out. Love you Larian!

Last edited by Benny89; 21/10/20 03:23 AM.
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I agreed with this 100% they wanted our feedback and I suggest to anyone keep giving your feedback, no matter if it has been said before. I feel some people think us criticizing the game mean we hate it.... it's actually the opposite. I want this game to succeed and go down as the best DND 5e recreation, but right now it's not close.

SO Keep giving your feedback everyone, and don't let other tell you to stop "complaining" or "get over it".

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well said!
two minor disagreements:
even though i like alignment more than my friends, it's not really part of 5e anymore.
5e is not perfectly balanced. if you give out no magic items magic users will overshadow martials at higher levels.
also i would not mind them buffing shitty spells like find traps, witch bolt or barskin.

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I agree almost 100%, I never liked the alignment system in DnD. And I like it even less in video games because it is, as far as I am aware, never done well. It is either over done to the point it makes no sense (Pathfinder:kingmaker) or just too black and white if its Good v Evil spectrum. It tends to run into issues of "you said X so alignment shifts" unless you add a (lie) option for literally every dialogue option that becomes a bit of a mess. Reputation systems tend to do better to represent the same basic thing. But I, as I said, dislike the alignment system. Many bad DMs take it as a rule rather than some fluid thing that a character can be.

Besides that yeah. Cheated is actually a pretty good word to use here. Is BG3 good? Absolutely. Is it DnD? Hahahha... you serious? It certainly lacks the DnD aspects in not just feel and mechanics but just.. general lore stuff. Like how easily fixable the tadpole issue is yet party never considers it. Die and rez. The guy who does basically true resurrections in camp would be good enough. And going by how angry many Forgotten Realms lore nerds are I... yeah I can sort of see why. There's a lot wrong on that end too. But that's highly unlikely to be Larians fault, probably more so WotC since they are no doubt in charge of lore oversight.

I also absolutely (pun intended) adore DOS2 and cant wait for Heroes but... kind of bought BG3 for the DnD part. Honestly I'd much rather Larian drops BG3 or never did and made DOS3 or Heroes. That excites me more.

Last edited by blazerules; 21/10/20 01:39 AM.
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+1

I am also a huge DOS fan and D&D PnP and cRPG fan for 20+ years. I want the games to be true to form and succeed in their respective differences...not all be the same.

I do slightly disagree with your #3 -- Yea, it's a big deal to be in hell on a nautiloid and all those fireworks at level 1...but it's really just a story set up of "you're involved in something important, even though you're level 1, but you don't know what or why."

It's similar in some respects to BG1 and 2 in that respect. Yeah, you're level 1, but the story is set up that you're in some deep $*#%, cause you're a lvl 1 CHILD OF BHAAL ;-)

Despite my slight nuance, excellent post and observations.

Developers, please consider the ramifications of NOT making this a more true DND cRPG.

Last edited by CurtimusMaximus; 21/10/20 01:50 AM.
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I agree mostly!

We must go closer to the 5e ruleset ( No Food that heals, Disenage mechanic, no ground effects unless the spell actually says that in 5e etc, fix cantrips to be as written ) Unfortunately the list goes on.


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The Ramifications is that it's gonna feel like "Fake News" if you call it anything other than D:OS 3 at this stage. Based on D:OS 2 not D&D is more like it. I truly hope they sort out all of their identity crisis issues and decide if what they really wanted to do was just D:OS 3 instead of this. Sure the D&D reskin is nice but the most important thing should always be the core gameplay and mechanics.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 21/10/20 01:59 AM.
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Generally I totally support your sentiment.
I don't think 3 is a big deal, probably not worth the time it would take to revamp all that and starting at level 3 would just demolish non-D&D players.
As many others have said, alignment doesn't play almost any mechanical role in 5E, so I'm happy to have it just for RP purposes.

All that said, there are certainly some aspects of tabletop D&D that can be done much better in a cRPG (like stealth/hiding, which in PnP is very flexible and DM dependent because it's too complicated for basic rules (think light, sound, lack of facing, etc)). So there are some parts of D&D that I'm okay with them altering a bit. But at this point it feels like they've over altered just to use mechanics they had from DOS2.

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I honestly don't know how people can find barrel fishing entertaining because that's just how stealth cheese feels like with how the A.I. reacts to the hide mechanic atm. Same goes for Backstabbing Grasshoppers ( What Disengage? ) and trivializing the whole D&D Spell, Skill and Class System with surface effects abuse/spam and throwables.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 21/10/20 02:42 AM.
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I agree 100%. The only difference is that I didn’t loved DOS2 (6/10)

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Great feedback!

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I honestly don't know how people can find barrel fishing entertaining because that's just how stealth cheese feels like with how the A.I. reacts to the hide mechanic atm. Same goes for Backstabbing Grasshoppers ( What Disengage? ) and trivializing the whole D&D Spell, Skill and Class System with surface effects abuse/spam and throwables.

Well, a lot of people don't go out of their way to "stealth cheese" or drag explosive barrels anywhere, frankly.



Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I honestly don't know how people can find barrel fishing entertaining because that's just how stealth cheese feels like with how the A.I. reacts to the hide mechanic atm. Same goes for Backstabbing Grasshoppers ( What Disengage? ) and trivializing the whole D&D Spell, Skill and Class System with surface effects abuse/spam and throwables.

Well, a lot of people don't go out of their way to "stealth cheese" or drag explosive barrels anywhere, frankly.




True, but there are so many barrels out there that its beyond silly. WAY to many environment helps if you will. When you stack a fight so you "have" to use the barrels its silly. Or the amount of throwables the enemy has is beyond silly too. Too many times now I have gotten the high ground just for someone to throw/shoot a barrel/flame arrow at me just to knock me down. Don't get me wrong, I love this game so far. I just wish some of the cheese is taken out. Both sides.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I honestly don't know how people can find barrel fishing entertaining because that's just how stealth cheese feels like with how the A.I. reacts to the hide mechanic atm. Same goes for Backstabbing Grasshoppers ( What Disengage? ) and trivializing the whole D&D Spell, Skill and Class System with surface effects abuse/spam and throwables.

Well, a lot of people don't go out of their way to "stealth cheese" or drag explosive barrels anywhere, frankly.



Highly unlikely since 99% played D:OS 2. All the people i know abuse it to death.

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I am in agreement generally but I want to give my full support to point 5. I have been playing D&D for 20 years now and have been waiting for a game that uses D&D rules since Neverwinter Nights 2. I'd like to see it done well rather than a copy of DoS2.

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton

Highly unlikely since 99% played D:OS 2. All the people i know abuse it to death.

I played DOS 2 as well (as the first) and I couldn't be bothered to cheese shit.

I'd still like to see these problems addressed, because knowing something is broken is
1) always a temptation
2) annoying in general,

but generally speaking I don't go out of my way to make a game more tedious for myself. It's not even a matter of being "honorable" about it. I genuinely find the amount of preparation to leverage these "structural weak points" into the system a fucking chore.

It's like when people say: "AAAH, I can literally go and do a long rest after every time I fight a single goblin".
Well... Just don't? Why do you even need to do that? What are you, mentally challenged?


Last edited by Tuco; 21/10/20 03:23 AM.

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Originally Posted by Mezbarrena
True, but there are so many barrels out there that its beyond silly. WAY to many environment helps if you will. When you stack a fight so you "have" to use the barrels its silly. Or the amount of throwables the enemy has is beyond silly too. Too many times now I have gotten the high ground just for someone to throw/shoot a barrel/flame arrow at me just to knock me down. Don't get me wrong, I love this game so far. I just wish some of the cheese is taken out. Both sides.

Hey, I'm all for

- significantly reducing them in number.
- make them way too heavy to be moved around by anyone with less than ogre-tiers of strength (as they should theoretically be. A full barrel is supposed to weight up to a fucking *literal* ton).

Still, I don't go out of my way to use them. Doing it and then bitching about it is vaguely stupid, frankly.

Last edited by Tuco; 21/10/20 03:19 AM.

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I agree that this definitely feels like DOS3 vs BG3.

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Highly unlikely since 99% played D:OS 2. All the people i know abuse it to death.

Never played any of those.
I will break and abuse the crap out of anything in early access/beta in the hopes it will be fixed.
If this barrel stuff remains in full release I would not use it because I like to pretend npcs have at least some intelligence and would definitely become suspicious of all the furniture moving.
There are definitely a lot of things that need to be changed before release.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Highly unlikely since 99% played D:OS 2. All the people i know abuse it to death.

Never played any of those.
I will break and abuse the crap out of anything in early access/beta in the hopes it will be fixed.
If this barrel stuff remains in full release I would not use it because I like to pretend npcs have at least some intelligence and would definitely become suspicious of all the furniture moving.
There are definitely a lot of things that need to be changed before release.


We can pretend all we want but the A.I. is still going to be retarded in the end because "Design Choices". Just like i can't ask the goblins to not spam throwables or arrows all the time even if i cripple myself. Most ppl don't understand the real issue here.

Let's Race to The High Ground: The Game.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 21/10/20 03:49 AM.
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