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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Delaredia
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like clerics are mostly nerfed by the terrible concentration system in 5e. Like every spell you want to cast is concentration, and you can only have one of them up. It's lame.


3e Clerics who could stack every buff spell in the book could become a bit ridiculous yeah. But no one else can do that anymore, either, so they've made it a bit more level.



That was the point of clerics though, heals and buffs.


Yeah, but now we get to buff, kinda heal, and kill stuff.

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Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Delaredia
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like clerics are mostly nerfed by the terrible concentration system in 5e. Like every spell you want to cast is concentration, and you can only have one of them up. It's lame.


3e Clerics who could stack every buff spell in the book could become a bit ridiculous yeah. But no one else can do that anymore, either, so they've made it a bit more level.



That was the point of clerics though, heals and buffs.


Yeah, but now we get to buff, kinda heal, and kill stuff.


This is what class synergies are for. Find what spells will be in your Concentration arsenal ( I usually pick 1-2 per loadout ), and find synergies with other members of your group.

If you want to excel heavily in extra heals, go Life Cleric for the extra bonus.

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I got a funny for some of you. You can make your checks so much easier if you have Shadowheart cast guidance on you before you start a conversation and past all those rolls due to that d4 to ability checks. wink I am sure I am not the only one to figure this out, but for those of you that didn't think of that you're welcome! smile Guidance used correctly is really OP for conversations and attack rolls for later rounds. I am on the fence for clerics at the moment. For one Life domains perk of heavy armor is rather moot at this point since you only can have I think splint mail and one helm that reduces critical hits I think. Trickery is alright, if you like sneaking around or using disguise self as a drow to skip all the goblin trash talk and flexing. Right now the domain that seems to have the most effectiveness is Light. I would like to see more domain options for the cleric or at the very least more heavy armor options for warriors and those that picked options that allowed them to wear it. After all, how can you play a Moradin or Helm cleric and not be sporting some mighty fine full plate armor am I right? No? *Hangs head in shame and sighs wandering off into exile.*

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Originally Posted by Ghost King
I got a funny for some of you. You can make your checks so much easier if you have Shadowheart cast guidance on you before you start a conversation and past all those rolls due to that d4 to ability checks. wink I am sure I am not the only one to figure this out, but for those of you that didn't think of that you're welcome! smile Guidance used correctly is really OP for conversations and attack rolls for later rounds.


Guidance does not affect attack rolls. I wish you could cast it during conversations, I don't have the patience to cast guidance before every dialogue. It's hard to know when an ability check dialogue is coming sometimes so it's not as useful as it could be. But yeah it is one of cleric's better utility spells.



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Originally Posted by genobeam
Originally Posted by Ghost King
I got a funny for some of you. You can make your checks so much easier if you have Shadowheart cast guidance on you before you start a conversation and past all those rolls due to that d4 to ability checks. wink I am sure I am not the only one to figure this out, but for those of you that didn't think of that you're welcome! smile Guidance used correctly is really OP for conversations and attack rolls for later rounds.


Guidance does not affect attack rolls. I wish you could cast it during conversations, I don't have the patience to cast guidance before every dialogue. It's hard to know when an ability check dialogue is coming sometimes so it's not as useful as it could be. But yeah it is one of cleric's better utility spells.


While in conversation, you can click a button in the lower left to switch to a different character. If you switch to the cleric, you can have them cast Guidance on you while you're in the conversation, and it will help with any checks you make then. Unless, of course, your only cleric is the person DOING the conversation, in which case you're screwed. You can also find an amulet at some point (don't remember where) that lets anyone cast Guidance.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by genobeam
Originally Posted by Ghost King
I got a funny for some of you. You can make your checks so much easier if you have Shadowheart cast guidance on you before you start a conversation and past all those rolls due to that d4 to ability checks. wink I am sure I am not the only one to figure this out, but for those of you that didn't think of that you're welcome! smile Guidance used correctly is really OP for conversations and attack rolls for later rounds.


Guidance does not affect attack rolls. I wish you could cast it during conversations, I don't have the patience to cast guidance before every dialogue. It's hard to know when an ability check dialogue is coming sometimes so it's not as useful as it could be. But yeah it is one of cleric's better utility spells.


While in conversation, you can click a button in the lower left to switch to a different character. If you switch to the cleric, you can have them cast Guidance on you while you're in the conversation, and it will help with any checks you make then. Unless, of course, your only cleric is the person DOING the conversation, in which case you're screwed. You can also find an amulet at some point (don't remember where) that lets anyone cast Guidance.


Well I just learned two things. Didn't know it didn't let you use for combat rolls and thanks for the heads up. It will save me some time not to presave where I know the conversations are coming in at.

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Hola estoy de acuerdo que el clérigo necesita retoques pero no he sentido la debilidad que sientes tu uso clérigo sin el mi party muere puede ser que a veces provocó más enemigos de lo necesario , pero gracias sus capacidades de dominio de vida y que controlo mis espacios de hechizos , por cierto la comida cura muy poco , y si te fijas sale un buff dice satisfecho si comes mucho eso te dificulta la posibilidad de usarla en combate ya que podes seguir comiendo pero no cura por que estas lleno, Nunca usó arco con mi clérigo , si uso ray frost por qué mi raza es semi elfo , pero siempre está en el medio del combate, 1º por que me gusta verlo iniciar la animación o dos siempre uso guia para aumentar mis posibilidades con el dado.
No voy negar es totalmente inútil para bufear por que te rompen concentración facil deberían modificar eso ya que un clérigo no puede buffear le quitan mucho su rol, deberían dar no se como un escudo aguante golpes cada ves usa hechizos de concentración.
Para terminar mi clérigo es mi joya en la party.



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As far as Shadowheart goes, she's roleplay before optimization, which I think its okay, but seems out of place since we can't get to 5th level whilst most of the the later threats are quite daunting. Invoke Duplicity is also quite lackluster because any enemy you want to use it on will either die in a few hits or leap/teleport around the battle. Pass Without Trace is good on paper, but isn't necessary given the turn based movement you can turn on.

As for Clerics in general, I think they're okay. Sure, weapon attacks are majestic with high ground, but Guiding Bolt is extremely effective in the same regard (though 4d6 has a ton of variance in damage output). Inflict Wounds is the same thing, but you instead have the backstab bonus - highly variable damage, but still a lot for a first level spell.

Admittedly, Trickery Domain is wasted in a straight up fight, Life Domain can be skipped if you manage food and rests, and Light Domain is the biggest winner in this format. Radiance of the Dawn is a solid Area of Effect that you get back on short rest, Burning Hands is a nice alternative to Guiding Bolt/Inflict Wounds, and Scorching is nothing to sneeze at either.

While many 5E tabletop players know Spirit Guardians is one of the best spells in the game, I don't believe it will do so well in game. If Burning Hands is any indication, a 15ft radius will not cover a lot of enemies, especially with Larians emphasis on verticality. Doubly so, the amount of concentration checks will mean Spirit Guardians will be knocked aside quite easily, though that might change if Reslient and War Caster feats are added.

In which Light Domain will do quite well for good old Fireball if we get 5th level anytime soon, or 6th level if we get two uses of Channel Divinity. If Druids are added (given the somewhat incomplete Druid animations and abilities), then Magic Initiate for Goodberry might make Life Clerics relevant (though ironically that goes back to food and rests).

Overall though, I'm quite enjoying a Light Domain main character even with Shadowheart. Base Cleric spells of Prayer of Healing, Healing Word, Guiding Bolt and Inflict Wounds are quite relevant, though I'll admit Agonizing Blast Warlocks and Speak with Animals Rangers are more meaningful to party composition and all.

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Well, Larain's design decisions of handing out advantage at no resource cost muddles a host of spells and class features. But, yes, it's not just that, the free round-trip teleport heal with no consequences and healing from fruits, meat, and vegetables is going to belittle the features of any support class. One top of this, these zany surfaces will force concentration checks and an expeditious rate. I'm utterly puzzled at this design, is as if these things designed individually in a vacuum with no notion of how these spells and abilities interact.

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My experience with my ckeric is that once they have used thier small healing spells, or if there is no use for them, they seem mostly useless.

When I play they almost always miss both with spells and melee, so I might just bench it for another warrior.

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In defense of the Cleric. I just tonight finished my first full playthrough of the EA content, and I was able to manage it with only two characters in the party (me and Lae-zel, Gith Squad) as a Life Cleric.

Shadowheart actually has great utility if you know how to use stealth in combat. Obvs in bit open arenas where everyone has line of sight to everyone else this is somewhat moot but a character who dips around a corner and enters sneak is likely to be passed over by enemies on their turn, giving them an opportunity to heal or set up their next attack. She also makes a passable warrior who can do the melee work of pushing enemies off cliffs and delivering weapon special abilities like bleeding. Her lack of ranged options is kind of annoying, but I tend to load her up with grenades for the 2 turns she tends to spend out of melee range, and for dealing with enemies who are too thick for her rather meagre dps to be a big help with.

It's true that Clerics don't make great DPS characters, but I've found that the strategy of laying on DPS and hoping the enemy dies before you do really starts to break down after the goblin camp arc, when enemies start getting thicker and stronger at an alarming rate. That's where Clerics really shine, I feel, which means they ought to continue to shine as more content comes out.

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Shadowheart's Blessing of The Trickster is insane - I let her pop it on my Ranger, then proceed destroying spawns of enemies passing zillion Stealth checks before they finally find me.

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For a Light Cleric, warding flare is fantastic in the early game because it gives you advantage on every attack from a non-blind enemy. This turns your cleric into a tank. Then Radiance of the Dawn will do damage to everything around you, which is great if there are many low health mobs swarming you. I suspect this will scale badly with level, but we will get more abilities to play with.

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Originally Posted by genobeam
Clerics feel unnecessary/weak compared to some of the other classes. Fighters, Rogues and Rangers all benefit the most from the BG3 changes to attacks (high ground gives advantage, shadows give advantage, backstab gives advantage, 1d4 extra damage from dipping, 2d4 if you dip with dual wielding, etc.). Wizards get really good guaranteed damage with Fire Bolt, as well as great CC with ray of frost.

Meanwhile all the good things about clerics are diminished in BG3. Food heals, making healing spells less important. Getting max HP between every encounter is now trivial. There is no long resource grind through a dungeon. Buff spells like bless are often redundant because of all the advantage everywhere. The way the game works my cleric in most fights finds himself sitting on some high ground making bow attacks with a -1 attack mod and a -1 damage mod because advantage + dip is just so busted. Seems like there's no reason to pick cleric over ranger for most situations.

With the better action economy in BG3 vs 5e, fights are more about finishing enemies off rather than more sustained fights where healing, buffs/nerfs, and crowd control are more important (did i mention food and potions are bonus actions?). The level 2 cleric spells include some good CC, but the fact that they require concentration in a world where the floor is lava make them much harder to sustain. Giving 3 enemies -1d4 to attack rolls is fine, but when your attacks could do 1d8+1d4+3 with 90%+ chance to hit, generally just killing things is better (no concentration required!)

Shadowheart, our default cleric is locked into the trickery domain, which is just absolutely awful. At level 2 Trickery Domain Clerics unlock "invoke duplicity", which creates an illusion and gives advantage to attackers if both they and the illusion are within 10 feet of a target. Since you can just walk behind an enemy to get advantage, this spell is absolute garbage. The other trickery domain spells increase her tankiness, so you could build into that, but she has -1 DEX mod so it doesn't really make much sense.

Throwing a healing word on a downed teammate is still useful, but other than that just stacking damage dealers makes a lot more sense than slowing your party down with a cleric imho.



honestly clerics are fine, the other changes to core 5e mechanics are what has caused the issue.

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Well and please include all Cleric domains in Players Handbook. Unless I am mistaken it was said that they will include all Cleric Domains in Players Handbook. They have included 3/7 domains from Players Handbook now. I am not saying all domains are good, but I am sure people like to play their favorite domains and like variable options to choose from depending on subjective taste.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 09/12/20 11:58 AM.
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