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#712098 22/10/20 10:11 AM
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Corren Offline OP
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I can't help but feel like arrows make bow-equipped rangers just useless, and I'll explain why.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER
What follows strays significantly from what the ranger class is in D&D, but I feel like for balance's sake, small changes could be made.

Any character with a bow/crossbow can use special projectiles. And the zones they cause when they hit the ground are a) too large (this fire arrow is more like a napalm arrow I swear...) and b) too powerful.

I've tried a ranger playthrough and the special abilities - namely ensnaring strike and hail of thorns - just can't compare. Any idiot with a bow and an ice arrow will be better at crowd control than a ranger with ensnaring strike, and any acid/fire arrow has both a larger AOE and higher damage output than Hail of thorns. So really, why even bother making a ranger?

I'm exaggerating a bit, but I wish the special abilities from the ranger class were better, or at least provide some sort of an edge over people who don't have that class. I have ideas:
A) Give rangers the innate ability to "improve arrows" (tinkering check) players find in the world. Either the damage of the arrow is increased (from a D4 to a d6) or its effect changes (from single target to AOE, from direct damage to DOT...)
B) characters that aren't rangers can still use the base effect of the arrow. Maybe sometimes, rarely, they find an already modified arrow they get to use.
C) any character attempting to modify an arrow makes a tinkering check with a higher DC than the ranger (and has to find the recipe for a specific arrow effect beforehand as opposed to innate knowledge for rangers)
D) make the arrows scale better with rangers than other classes: cumulating AOE/DOT for example (so basically what fire arrow already does as is in current version of the game)
E) A failed tinkering check can break the arrow and make it useless. On a nat-1, can explode in player's face.

Last edited by Corren; 22/10/20 10:20 AM.
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Consumables need gold to purchase whereas abilities are free to use.

The same argument you make can be applied to healing potions and Clerical healing, or Alchemists' Fire/Acid flasks and Wizard fire or acid spells, just for example.

D&D has always been a resource management game to a greater or lesser degree, and having to buy consumables to create effects that certain classes get for free doesn't seem unbalancing to me.

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You make a good point, but:
a)a potion can't be used from a distance as opposed to spell (higher flexibility for casters as opposed to non-casters, same as what I'm suggesting for arrows)
b)as is: the amount of healing potions and food is imho too high in the game
c) clerics have MANY other tools than just healing (which is cheapened by the omnipresence of scrolls everywhere as of right now). Spell variety can't be compared to rangers-only abilities which are very few.

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Yet again the issue is Larian straying from 5e rules.

Arrows are cool, I don't mind the idea, but yeah I think they are a bit too powerful, even if they are a resouce. Besides you don't need them to win battles, I rarely ever use them.

As for the idea: Ranger isn't just about bows and arrows, they are just as much Aragon from LOTR.

I'm not sure they need to change 5e even more, to fix a problem they created by straying from 5e to begin with. Arrows are cool, I don't mind them being in the game, but as with many other easy accessable surface creating abilities: They are OP.

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This is not a "you're wrong" response (I'm not here to change your opinion), but are you aware that potions can effectively be used at range even more flexibly than a Cleric's healing spell (Healing Word excepted). The 'magic hand' allows characters to use items that anyone in the party is holding - you don't need to equip the wounded character with the potion first.

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Well damn, I had no idea. I appreciate you being genuine about your thoughts smile

To be fair though, the mage hand spell feels very very broken so far. Partly bugged, partly over powered. I expect some of its features to be changed.

That being said, I'm not sure the comparison with clerics/healing characters makes the case against what I am proposing. After all, they are a different type of class with different issues.

Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
I'm not sure they need to change 5e even more, to fix a problem they created by straying from 5e to begin with.

That is a very fair argument to make smile

Last edited by Corren; 22/10/20 12:59 PM.
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arrow cost like 300 gp... theyre quite rare and i usually dont have more than a couple found as loot.

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Originally Posted by Corren
Well damn, I had no idea.

When your party member is calling for the band-aids, open the Inventory and make sure you highlight the wounded character. The just right-click anyone's stock of potions or food and consume. It will be the highlighted character that benefits.

I should note that a large portion of my healing potions in the early play-throughs were being drunk by healthy characters because I had the wrong character highlighted. Just one of those issues with a CRPG as opposed to PnP!

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Yeah as a Ranger myself, I treat the arrows more like the grenades that anyone can use as just a situational tool. Not something that Ranges can get a leg up on. As is Rangers can deal pretty significant damage with the right build on single targets, I really dont think they need any buffs on the elemental arrows in addition to that.

Last edited by Valzen; 22/10/20 01:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Valzen
As is Rangers can deal pretty significant damage with the right build on single targets, I really dont think they need any buffs on the elemental arrows in addition to that.


I don't mean to say that rangers need a buff. It's the opposite in fact. I think every one else should get less benefits from special arrows, and they should remain as powerful as they currently are only when used by a ranger, provided the player succeeds a tinkering check; so, one more opportunity to get a dice roll, really laugh
Effectively, it's kind of a buff to the ranger if everyone else gets nerfed, but it's on such a niche aspect of the game that I feel like it'd be a nice touch. Doesn't really change overall balance.

And as was mentioned earlier, arrows cost a significant cost and are pretty rare so it wouldn't be that much of a nerf anyway.

Last edited by Corren; 22/10/20 01:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Corren
Originally Posted by Valzen
As is Rangers can deal pretty significant damage with the right build on single targets, I really dont think they need any buffs on the elemental arrows in addition to that.


I don't mean to say that rangers need a buff. It's the opposite in fact. I think every one else should get less benefits from special arrows, and they should remain as powerful as they currently are only when used by a ranger, provided the player succeeds a tinkering check; so, one more opportunity to get a dice roll, really laugh
Effectively, it's kind of a buff to the ranger if everyone else gets nerfed, but it's on such a niche aspect of the game that I feel like it'd be a nice touch. Doesn't really change overall balance.

And as was mentioned earlier, arrows cost a significant cost and are pretty rare so it wouldn't be that much of a nerf anyway.


I suppose thats fair then. Maybe I didnt read the previous replies very well, lol. I just cant help but remember how powerful the long range classes could be in DOS2 and I'm hoping they keep a good balance here.

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The overabundance of magic arrows (And other items, but the thread isn't about that) kind of steps on the toes of the Ranger/Druid flaming arrows spell, and the entirety of the Arcane Archer subtype for fighter. If Larian wants to be including a bunch of different arrow types, then why not just homebrew a spell that only Rangers can use, and special Arcane Shots for the AA? Something like "Elemental Arrows" which would add X elemental effect to any piece of ammunition you fire?

Currently it kind of breaks my immersion, personally, to constantly be stumbling across magic arrows on the corpse of every basic, weak goblin archer, if they don't fire all three of their standard magic arrows before they get killed.

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Originally Posted by cat59

Currently it kind of breaks my immersion, personally, to constantly be stumbling across magic arrows on the corpse of every basic, weak goblin archer, if they don't fire all three of their standard magic arrows before they get killed.


I feel like what's missing is the requirement of a tinkering check that goes higher for the more powerful arrows, making it inaccessible to low int/low level characters and thus, rarer as a whole in the early game.

For example, the acid arrow that lowers AC by a whopping 2 (!!!) is incredibly strong on large bosses that tend to stand their ground and hit stuff. Especially since the area remains for such a long time, it's basically a permanent -2 to AC (it won me the spider matriarch fight), and anybody can get that effect! Which to me seems crazy.

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Originally Posted by dza101
arrow cost like 300 gp... theyre quite rare and i usually dont have more than a couple found as loot.


"Quite rare". Someone should tell the goblins that. All of em have bombs to throw and their archers with a bunch of special arrows for some reason.

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I think overall arrows are ok and comparing them to level 1 spells from Ranger spellbook is eh, because level 1 Ranger spells are mostly shit anyway aside from 2 obvious choices.

Magic arrows are a thing in D&D and it's not like only Rangers can ever use them.

As one guy mentioned above a lot of it is about resources and there are many things that replace or simulate class abilities at cost, whether it's scrolls, potions or arrows. Now all these can be stolen which of course means you may have an easier time accessing those, if you desire to go that route, but if you're a goodie two shoes kind of character, you definitely won't be spamming these.

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I'm playing a Ranger Archer this playthrough and it is the second most powerful so far. Warlock is better ... so far ... but Wood Elf Ranger is really powerful .. and Speak with Animals is Very useful in this game.

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Rangers aren't supposed to be a dedicated archer class. Other classes like fighter or rogue can build to be specialized archers just like a ranger can build to specialize in melee. So I don't really see why rangers should be able to get special utility out of magic arrows.

That said, I do think consumables in general need to be toned down in their availability. My Githyanki ranger can be just as good an arcane caster as a wizard due to the sheer quantity of scrolls you find.

Scrolls and special arrows should be more rare. You shouldn't be able to count on having them as a part of your general strategy. If you have an acid arrow you should want to hold on to it incase you really need the acid damage because you're not guaranteed to pick up three or four more before Act 1 ends.

Ensnaring Strike also could do with being better as a spell. It should go into effect on your next hit rather than wasting the spell slot when you miss.

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Also don't forget you can throw potions at players on the ground between a group and chance healing multiple.


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