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This is a fantastic way to quantify data, good set of questions. +1.

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by ChickenInSpace
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Sludge, even though its a more volatile environment and you're going to be a whipping boy...https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/ might pump those response numbers up now that youve dialed in the survey a bit more. If youre worried about integrity it might be interesting to duplicate the survey and have a different host address and have a Larian, Reddit, Steam version to compare to by source and do a cross-sectional comparison.

Thanks for changing to Gdrive I forgot to respond lol, the hentai ads must have mind-wiped me, that was gonna be my suggestion. With Google Docs you can link a variety of things together in that space.

Also like to shout out to everyone who played Planescape: Torment. I ran my best D&D one-shot to date by lifting from it and introducing a new group of players to Sigil. If you haven't played it, yes its ungodly old, but the writing is great and you will learn a lot of cool lore. and if you just be patient, take the time, and zen clear your mind and accept the game as current, youll start to get a kick out of it. The new planescape is cool and has a great hook, but I think the first ones was better - you wake up, undead/was dead/still dead?, in a morgue, no memory, covered in tattoos you don't understand, in one of the craziest places youll ever see - Sigil.


Ive thought several times in launching that survey in Reddit. I can definitely make a copy of it and post it there and probably I’ll receive so much downvotes for it that I’ll never make it to the top but I’ll give it a try.
I’m afraid the questions will be too technical to the average Reddit user? Maybe I should try to restructure the questions to be more detailed without losing the essence.
I’ve used to post it there my rational thinking, but instead of counter argumentation I’ve received many strikes. Do you realize that you are throwing me in a cage full of lions? :p

Hell yeah! Let’s go!!




Reddit does a Friday Feedback thread thing, which is great. I linked your survey post there in the latest installment to help out - the subreddit has some 54000+ members and around 2000 active at any point, which is a very healthy number. There are tons of suggestions there that are basically identical to ones in here. Bringing all the feedback to one place would be terrific.

For some reason people treat the subreddit as an official feedback place for everything from suggestions to bug reports. Perhaps it's a part of the reddit sickness of thinking everyone read everything over there. I like reddit, but bringing all that feedback over here is in everyones best interest, I think.



Definitely, ChickenInSpace. Going for the Reddit was a smart decision as the sample just skyrocketed.

Please, find their results:


Link to results (421 interviewees - Error Margin 4.8p.p - POPULATION: REDDIT) :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VWtKnvaXpC0y0j0h7syEGXSC2H92MmKt/view?usp=sharing






You're welcome!

While I'm sad to see how many are fine with a party of just four, it does highlight how troublesome many of the homebrew stuff they're doing are.

At a first glance there also seem to be a large discrepancy behind how people rate individual homebrew rules (overall poorly) compared to how the overall DnD ruleset is implemented (rather well). This makes my brain go all kinds of ???

If I'm not mistaken, it also seems like pretty much all the DOS-shenanigans are generally disliked.

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Originally Posted by ChickenInSpace


At a first glance there also seem to be a large discrepancy behind how people rate individual homebrew rules (overall poorly) compared to how the overall DnD ruleset is implemented (rather well). This makes my brain go all kinds of ???


I think it's likely that there are individual changes that people dislike, but they are not as concerned with the changes as a whole.

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Really nice survey.

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Originally Posted by Dulany67
Originally Posted by ChickenInSpace


At a first glance there also seem to be a large discrepancy behind how people rate individual homebrew rules (overall poorly) compared to how the overall DnD ruleset is implemented (rather well). This makes my brain go all kinds of ???


I think it's likely that there are individual changes that people dislike, but they are not as concerned with the changes as a whole.


This is a technique in research that it’s used to detach the overall experience from the attributes. If we had went by just asking : do you like it yes or no, you’d have lost the nuances of the game. In customers experience feedback it’s like asking: do you like your Ferrari? And then asking: do you think your car seat is comfortable? They are extremely related but at the same time they’re not :p

The whole is important but if you want a masterpiece the attributes are a must.

Additionally, I appreciate our team work. This is not sludge’s work, this is a community work and the research would not be good without your feedback and inputs. I was merely a channel to centralize it.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Argonaut, true but wow also killed the mmo genre. Before wow, we had ultima online and dark sun online crimson sands, games which are true RPG's. Now, mmos are all about farming gear and managing cooldowns. Extremely boring.


What is funny for being extremely boring a lot more people have decided that is what they want to play. So it's all opinions and some are popular and some are not.

True RPG imo that is hyperbole. They are just different from one another.


Wrong. The mostp popular RPG's of the last decade, dark souls and skyrim din't had cooldowns or a endless gear farming focus. On CRPG's, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous got more money on kickstarter than dos2. And I know a lot of people who HATED dos2 itemization, armor and cooldown mechanics who are hyped for BG3.


Nice how you simply pivoted from talking directly about mmo's on to something else. Way to do me like that.

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I just did the parallax alt-tab switching to compare the reddit results v forum results...pretty interesting. My armchair takeaways:

- This forum has a more experienced genre gaming community
- This forum has a decent amount more D&D experience
- Reddit, on the whole, had a more positive opinion and experience. I didn't see any areas where Reddit was more critical of the game than these forums.
- The positive shift that Reddit has regarding homebrew D&D rules is far greater than the disparity of D&D experience but correlates much more strongly to the lack of experience of games played that utilize D&D mechanics.
- The forums, probably partially due to smaller sample, have much less consensus on Combat Balance and Freedom.
- I thought surprising similarity to class balance question given the difference on the combat experience question - seems like your experience in combat would be linked to class efficacy.
- Surfaces! Wow, considering Reddit's overwhelming DOS2 dominance as a previous game played, with little other game experience in the genre...same opinion as this forum on surfaces.
- Stealth - another interesting parity between the two. Again, considering how you could do things in DOS2, the questionable execution of what you are allowed to do with it in this seems to hit the same "yeah, we probably shouldnt be able to do that" point.
- Shove - middle crowd didn't change but the people with strong opinions were, again, on the "10" side for reddit and "1" for forums almost in a mirrored flip with a 4% deviation
- Disengage - again, similar. I think the game experience doesnt matter here as it is purely a D&D mechanic and seems to be agreed that this isn't how it should be.
- High ground / Backstab - Reddit has majority positive at 7/8. Forums majority is 1, averaging around 2.
- Dips and cantrips, generally disliked. Same Reddit positive shift, though.
- AC low HP High - BIG difference. Lot of people are OK with it in Reddit. Forums are frothing at the concept.
- Items/arrow - Reddit generally OK, not enthused, Forums negative shift to generally disliked.
- Rest/ targeting - generally the same. Reddit more OK with it, Forums dislike
- Fog of war - middle crowd ok and similar. Forums 1's are Reddits 10's
- Companions - Reddit generally likes them. Forums lack any strong consensus, but generally slightly likes.
- Chaining - Forums, 60+ dislike, Reddit 50/50
- Item management - lol Forums - 80% dislike v Reddit 60%
- peaceful solutions / RTWP - Generally the same, with Reddit positive shift

Reddit is a happier, less critical place than these forums @@



Last edited by Orbax; 26/10/20 04:37 PM.

What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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The positive shift on Reddit compared to here is interesting. Probably explained by overall slightly more casual audience, since it's a big website with all kinds of nerds, while these forums are for Larian/BG3 nerds. It's easier to just stop by a subreddit than some forums which are a completely separate website than one might usually use.

However, neither these forums or reddit represent a casual audience or the majority of playerbase. I would say Larian would get much more accurate data with in-game surveys. Of course, that's not to say these results don't matter, as they have said they look at the forums and the subreddit both.

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Originally Posted by denhonator
The positive shift on Reddit compared to here is interesting. Probably explained by overall slightly more casual audience, since it's a big website with all kinds of nerds, while these forums are for Larian/BG3 nerds. It's easier to just stop by a subreddit than some forums which are a completely separate website than one might usually use.

However, neither these forums or reddit represent a casual audience or the majority of playerbase. I would say Larian would get much more accurate data with in-game surveys. Of course, that's not to say these results don't matter, as they have said they look at the forums and the subreddit both.


If Larian had a weekly survey that was similar to this that popped up it would probably be helpful to them. Or bi-weekly. Mainly at the launch of a patch and before a new one to see how much was "rabble rabble! Change! Rabble!" and "Ok, now that I've used it a bit..."

Then again theres a lot of "You'd think Larian would..." generally haha so...


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Orbax
I just did the parallax alt-tab switching to compare the reddit results v forum results...pretty interesting. My armchair takeaways:

- This forum has a more experienced genre gaming community
- This forum has a decent amount more D&D experience
- Reddit, on the whole, had a more positive opinion and experience. I didn't see any areas where Reddit was more critical of the game than these forums.
- The positive shift that Reddit has regarding homebrew D&D rules is far greater than the disparity of D&D experience but correlates much more strongly to the lack of experience of games played that utilize D&D mechanics.
- The forums, probably partially due to smaller sample, have much less consensus on Combat Balance and Freedom.
- I thought surprising similarity to class balance question given the difference on the combat experience question - seems like your experience in combat would be linked to class efficacy.
- Surfaces! Wow, considering Reddit's overwhelming DOS2 dominance as a previous game played, with little other game experience in the genre...same opinion as this forum on surfaces.
- Stealth - another interesting parity between the two. Again, considering how you could do things in DOS2, the questionable execution of what you are allowed to do with it in this seems to hit the same "yeah, we probably shouldnt be able to do that" point.
- Shove - middle crowd didn't change but the people with strong opinions were, again, on the "10" side for reddit and "1" for forums almost in a mirrored flip with a 4% deviation
- Disengage - again, similar. I think the game experience doesnt matter here as it is purely a D&D mechanic and seems to be agreed that this isn't how it should be.
- Dips and cantrips, generally disliked. Same Reddit positive shift, though.
- AC low HP High - BIG difference. Lot of people are OK with it in Reddit. Forums are frothing at the concept.
- Items/arrow - Reddit generally OK, not enthused, Forums negative shift to generally disliked.
- Rest/ targeting - generally the same. Reddit more OK with it, Forums dislike
- Fog of war - middle crowd ok and similar. Forums 1's are Reddits 10's
- Companions - Reddit generally likes them. Forums lack any strong consensus, but generally slightly likes.
- Chaining - Forums, 60+ dislike, Reddit 50/50
- Item management - lol Forums - 80% dislike v Reddit 60%
- peaceful solutions / RTWP - Generally the same, with Reddit positive shift

Reddit is a happier, less critical place than these forums @@




There’s one missing attribute evaluation that you forgot and I’d like to hear your opinion - the nemesis - highground & backstab advantage.
I’d say that in that ground is where the differences get interesting! Giving the scenario: everyone hates missing, am I right? The advantage system in BG3 is way more frequent given the scenario (highground is abundant in every landscape) and that’s being used to grant that desired “playability”. The game itself as it is right now in the early access makes it difficult to the average player to understand what are the impacts of that advantage spree because they do not have access to Barbarians, fearie Fire and so on. Therefore it’s hard to capture the impact in the long run. On the other hand, Forum being more technical, they are already aware of the impacts and foresee the amount of work that will be needed to adjust it (And my humble opinion is that this thing should be removed from the game, getting back the cover system to the stage)

Nevertheless, my conclusions are the same as yours! Very well described.





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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid


There’s one missing attribute evaluation that you forgot and I’d like to hear your opinion - the nemesis - highground & backstab advantage.
I’d say that in that ground is where the differences get interesting! Giving the scenario: everyone hates missing, am I right? The advantage system in BG3 is way more frequent given the scenario (highground is abundant in every landscape) and that’s being used to grant that desired “playability”.


I updated my comment, Reddit is 8 on backstab/advantae, Forums 2 average with majority in 1. The only thing I can think of there is that it is a D&D mechanic and, as far as gaming, using terrain and environment to get advantages is more tactically enjoyable. It is odd though, where we saw disengage being generally disliked and it is a purely D&D mechanic, the deviation fit within the D&D experience deviation; we see advantage being inexplicably more positive beyond any correlations in disparity on experience in gaming and D&D. I wonder what would happen if you didn't lump backstab in with height. The reason I say this is backstab is a staple ability of rogues in most games and would probably be viewed as "yeah, thats what rogues do...". The elevation for advantage might be the more controversial one, but with backstab giving you such a ridiculous damage output, it might be disregarding the elevation part entirely. Anecdotally, new D&D players tend to play edgelord rogues and in gaming the class is a perennial DPS class - if you have a healer its a hard one to turn down. So, my unfounded opinion is that question is getting answered as "do you like backstab" and brushes aside the elevation portion.


Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid

On the other hand, Forum being more technical...


I don't know if Id go that far :p



What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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People here discuss many things and I think most of those that answer the survey are ""usual"" forum user. By usual, I mean that they read topics and compare their opinions to others to try to understand things from different points of view.

Reddit is just a fastfood like facebook... You give your opinion, up or down posts without reading any comments... I know people like to easily open their mouth without thinking that much... But if social media become "the people's voices", we're all lost... Ho wait......

That said, I'm not saying everyone's opinion there is uninterresting of course, but I'm not sure that the trend on these media is a garantee of quality...

This was totally off topic, sry.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/10/20 05:04 PM.
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Also I’d like to state that are unknown forces downvoting my survey In Reddit for reasons I don’t clearly know. laugh

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
People here discuss many things and I think most of those that answer the survey are ""usual"" forum user. By usual, I mean that they read topics and compare their opinions to others to try to understand things from different points of view.

Reddit is just a fastfood like facebook... You give your opinion, up or down posts without reading any comments... I know people like to easily open their mouth without thinking that much... But if social media become "the people's voices", we're all lost... Ho wait......

That said, I'm not saying everyone's opinion there is uninteresting of course, but I'm not sure that the trend on these media is a guarantee of quality...

This was totally off topic, sry.


Its easy to outgroup "them" at Reddit, but with r/dnd at 2.1 million users doing 400 posts and 3000 comments a day I still have a LOT of suuuuuuuuuuuper nerdy and technical conversations with plenty of people. The casuals are probably not commenting and taking surveys, so there is that to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/co...share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

and to be frank, because who doesnt want to be Frank Drebin, I haven't seen much of a difference on D&D knowledge here than the average r/dnd post.

Im not saying Im an expert, listen to me!,but I feel comfortable enough with the time I have in the D&D world to at least keep my opinion fairly objective looking at commentary [Linked Image]. I dont track my PnP time so who knows :p

The r/gaming community, on the other hand. Yeah, if this got dumped in there, Id light it on fire, put it in a sack, light the sack on fire, through it in a river, drown the river, then put it in on fire sack and throw it into the sun.

Subs, however, tend to draw different crowds. Im not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I might posit that the difference might be simply be people who prefer smaller communities, people who think that by being here they have a more visible and preferred voice, or simply prefer forums to Reddit. I don't know how much faith I would put in that we all get gold badges because we were smart enough to come here and the unwashed masses took their Red Badges and go roll around in the Reddit mud in ignorant bliss laugh


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
People here discuss many things and I think most of those that answer the survey are ""usual"" forum user. By usual, I mean that they read topics and compare their opinions to others to try to understand things from different points of view.

Reddit is just a fastfood like facebook... You give your opinion, up or down posts without reading any comments... I know people like to easily open their mouth without thinking that much... But if social media become "the people's voices", we're all lost... Ho wait......

That said, I'm not saying everyone's opinion there is uninteresting of course, but I'm not sure that the trend on these media is a guarantee of quality...

This was totally off topic, sry.


Its easy to outgroup "them" at Reddit, but with r/dnd at 2.1 million users doing 400 posts and 3000 comments a day I still have a LOT of suuuuuuuuuuuper nerdy and technical conversations with plenty of people. The casuals are probably not commenting and taking surveys, so there is that to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/co...share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

and to be frank, because who doesnt want to be Frank Drebin, I haven't seen much of a difference on D&D knowledge here than the average r/dnd post.

Im not saying Im an expert, listen to me!,but I feel comfortable enough with the time I have in the D&D world to at least keep my opinion fairly objective looking at commentary [Linked Image]. I dont track my PnP time so who knows :p

The r/gaming community, on the other hand. Yeah, if this got dumped in there, Id light it on fire, put it in a sack, light the sack on fire, through it in a river, drown the river, then put it in on fire sack and throw it into the sun.

Subs, however, tend to draw different crowds. Im not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I might posit that the difference might be simply be people who prefer smaller communities, people who think that by being here they have a more visible and preferred voice, or simply prefer forums to Reddit. I don't know how much faith I would put in that we all get gold badges because we were smart enough to come here and the unwashed masses took their Red Badges and go roll around in the Reddit mud in ignorant bliss laugh


Let me spicy things a little bit. I’ve always used Reddit from the outside. Never wanted to create an account and so. I’m not that type of social media guy which means I don’t usually expose my opinion among strangers.

Then the Early Access came out. I’ve played the game, beaten the first chap and it felt so cheap. I really disliked it. I really felt that a lot of stuff was poorly made and my expectations where destroyed within 1 week.

I’ve noticed that there’s no real open channel to debate the game then decided to join Reddit to share my opinions. The way it felt after sharing my thoughts were like an invisible wall pushing me out of the community. The community is ruthless if you think differently and sometimes even disrespectful as there’s no real moderator there. My point is that it’s easy to be discouraged to debate thoughts and ideas in a community like that. No critical thinking flourishes in that wild environment.

Sound like everyone is saying: shhhhh don’t badmouth Larian services to the humankind otherwise they’ll cancel the game.

That’s where my argument that the forum is more technical came from. At least here we're discussing and not attacking each other. I can wholeheartedly disagree with Orbax but in the end of the day we’ll be sharing a dwarven ale.

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
People here discuss many things and I think most of those that answer the survey are ""usual"" forum user. By usual, I mean that they read topics and compare their opinions to others to try to understand things from different points of view.

Reddit is just a fastfood like facebook... You give your opinion, up or down posts without reading any comments... I know people like to easily open their mouth without thinking that much... But if social media become "the people's voices", we're all lost... Ho wait......

That said, I'm not saying everyone's opinion there is uninteresting of course, but I'm not sure that the trend on these media is a guarantee of quality...

This was totally off topic, sry.


Its easy to outgroup "them" at Reddit, but with r/dnd at 2.1 million users doing 400 posts and 3000 comments a day I still have a LOT of suuuuuuuuuuuper nerdy and technical conversations with plenty of people. The casuals are probably not commenting and taking surveys, so there is that to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/co...share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

and to be frank, because who doesnt want to be Frank Drebin, I haven't seen much of a difference on D&D knowledge here than the average r/dnd post.

Im not saying Im an expert, listen to me!,but I feel comfortable enough with the time I have in the D&D world to at least keep my opinion fairly objective looking at commentary [Linked Image]. I dont track my PnP time so who knows :p

The r/gaming community, on the other hand. Yeah, if this got dumped in there, Id light it on fire, put it in a sack, light the sack on fire, through it in a river, drown the river, then put it in on fire sack and throw it into the sun.

Subs, however, tend to draw different crowds. Im not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I might posit that the difference might be simply be people who prefer smaller communities, people who think that by being here they have a more visible and preferred voice, or simply prefer forums to Reddit. I don't know how much faith I would put in that we all get gold badges because we were smart enough to come here and the unwashed masses took their Red Badges and go roll around in the Reddit mud in ignorant bliss laugh


Let me spicy things a little bit. I’ve always used Reddit from the outside. Never wanted to create an account and so. I’m not that type of social media guy which means I don’t usually expose my opinion among strangers.

Then the Early Access came out. I’ve played the game, beaten the first chap and it felt so cheap. I really disliked it. I really felt that a lot of stuff was poorly made and my expectations where destroyed within 1 week.

I’ve noticed that there’s no real open channel to debate the game then decided to join Reddit to share my opinions. The way it felt after sharing my thoughts were like an invisible wall pushing me out of the community. The community is ruthless if you think differently and sometimes even disrespectful as there’s no real moderator there. My point is that it’s easy to be discouraged to debate thoughts and ideas in a community like that. No critical thinking flourishes in that wild environment.

Sound like everyone is saying: shhhhh don’t badmouth Larian services to the humankind otherwise they’ll cancel the game.

That’s where my argument that the forum is more technical came from. At least here we're discussing and not attacking each other. I can wholeheartedly disagree with Orbax but in the end of the day we’ll be sharing a dwarven ale.


Haha, well cheers to that! I think part of it is the "When the cats away, the mice will play" thing. WIth no real moderation in Reddit forums barring something HEINOUS, you'll just get some nerd raging on you and if they just go low road people tend to Jerry Springer around it pretty hard. That with collapsing trees also makes comments get buried. Forums you actually have to read everything. Or skip it all and your post on page 5 is a repeat of everything thats already been said already and people ignore it. Its a balance between mods, jerks, post/comment volume, and message structure. Ive wished we could upvote comments here several times, but it would need to no weight them and float them to the top. The medium changes the message for sure!


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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After spend some time in the r\bg3 section I begin to understand why r\baldursgate distanced himself in long way from them.

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Originally Posted by arion
After spend some time in the r\bg3 section I begin to understand why r\baldursgate distanced himself in long way from them.


I can 100% understand you!

& Orbax, I guess the problems are the downvotes? They simply push you away of the mainstream frown

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by arion
After spend some time in the r\bg3 section I begin to understand why r\baldursgate distanced himself in long way from them.


I can 100% understand you!

& Orbax, I guess the problems are the downvotes? They simply push you away of the mainstream frown


yeah, its screaming into the void a lot. The fact you can get buried and then auto-hidden with enough downvotes makes it hard. Sociology plays a lot into going "-8 downvotes? Yeah i guess that is kind of a shit post *downvote*".

My particular commenting patterns are in modules like tomb of annihilation, DMing advice, and D&D mechanics so they are usually a more interested subgroup. I have 0 desire to try to actually make a post in that forum and have it do well. For having 11k+ karma, ive made less than 20 posts in 6 years haha.

Last edited by Orbax; 26/10/20 08:45 PM.

What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid

That’s where my argument that the forum is more technical came from. At least here we're discussing and not attacking each other. I can wholeheartedly disagree with Orbax but in the end of the day we’ll be sharing a dwarven ale.


I see plenty of attacking in these forums too, I don't find that aspect to be any better than on Reddit. But let's not get too off topic

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