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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I would not be surprised to learn that BG3 is going to herald a Psionics official release (assuming they finally settled on the subclass approach). I don't worry too much about using the psychic options that are just marked "Wisdom" but I am not touching anything marked with the tag "Illithid". I'm wondering if it is going to be analogous to overuse of Bhaal powers in the earlier games. If I remember right, that also caused bad stuff to happen.


Didn't DnD use to have Psionics?
Think I remember it from the books https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/906028.Venom_s_Taste
but it was such a long time I read them I cannot be sure my mind isn't playing tricks on me.

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Not in the EA as far as I can tell. Someone mentioned the companions hating you but it never happened to me


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.

Last edited by Ashley1Black; 23/10/20 10:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ashley1Black
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.

Yes, this is one of the main issues I have with EA at the moment. Playing evil forces you to be chaotic stupid. Not only storywise but you get penalized even with these so called evil/neutral companions.

Tbh the only evil companion in the game seems to be Astarion and possibly Lae'zal. No idea why Gale or Wyll are even in my camp. And Shadowheart's only evil part seems to be the deity she worships.

Last edited by Moirnelithe; 23/10/20 11:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Ashley1Black
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.

Yes, this is one of the main issues I have with EA at the moment. Playing evil forces you to be chaotic stupid. Not only storywise but you get penalized even with these so called evil/neutral companions.

Tbh the only evil companion in the game seems to be Astarion and possibly Lae'zal. No idea why Gale or Wyll are even in my camp. And Shadowheart's only evil part seems to be the deity she worships.


It makes complete sense that the evil companions might dislike you for using the tadpole. Part of being evil is selfishness, self preservation and personal gain.

Becoming a mind flayer is NOT in your best interest. Even an evil character should have no interest in it. Being body snatched doesn't exactly sound like something an evil character would want.

It's kind of the same problem I have with siding with the goblins. It makes zero sense in the context of the story as we know it so far, even for an evil character. They make no argument as to why it would be in my own interest to side with them over the druids except...to join a crazy mind flayer worshiping cult that might end up turning me into one? Excuse me?

Chaotic Stupid is the best phrase I've heard for how that entire sequence plays out.

Personally, I think drow characters should have the ability to talk sense into Minthara and break her free from the Absolute and bring her back to Lolth. Have her join your camp, even if not as a full companion.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade3226
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Ashley1Black
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.

Yes, this is one of the main issues I have with EA at the moment. Playing evil forces you to be chaotic stupid. Not only storywise but you get penalized even with these so called evil/neutral companions.

Tbh the only evil companion in the game seems to be Astarion and possibly Lae'zal. No idea why Gale or Wyll are even in my camp. And Shadowheart's only evil part seems to be the deity she worships.


It makes complete sense that the evil companions might dislike you for using the tadpole. Part of being evil is selfishness, self preservation and personal gain.

Becoming a mind flayer is NOT in your best interest. Even an evil character should have no interest in it. Being body snatched doesn't exactly sound like something an evil character would want.

It's kind of the same problem I have with siding with the goblins. It makes zero sense in the context of the story as we know it so far, even for an evil character. They make no argument as to why it would be in my own interest to side with them over the druids except...to join a crazy mind flayer worshiping cult that might end up turning me into one? Excuse me?

Chaotic Stupid is the best phrase I've heard for how that entire sequence plays out.

Personally, I think drow characters should have the ability to talk sense into Minthara and break her free from the Absolute and bring her back to Lolth. Have her join your camp, even if not as a full companion.


At the start using the tadpole is chaotic stupid for sure. The entire game is shouting at you that doing so will turn you into a mindflayer. It's why I didn't use it all my first playthrough and I only started using it after I read on the forums about the dreams. So Larian is setting you up for some serious meta gaming here.

That said, if you do decide to use the tadpole (after reading the forums) the evil companions can disagree with it the first time but don't continue to give disapproval. Do it once so we know every companion's stance on the issue and then leave it at that.

The few characters that will join you in your evil playthrough shouldn't be disapproving of what you do all the time, that's what the good companions are doing already. If this keeps up you will reach end game all on your lonesome (if you even survive that long).

Actually by the time the disapproval thing happens again you already know you will most likely not turn into a mindflayer because something messed with your tadpole. It even gives you nifty powers. So evil companions should be a tad (pun intended) more understanding of using it.


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Originally Posted by Ashley1Black
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.


Why do people see "siding with the Absolue/using tadpole" as the only evil path?

You can side with the Grove and tell people you did it all in the name of your evil god if you are an Evil Cleric or just because killing is fun. You can agree being seen as a hero is awful with Astarion afterward. Who you side with isn't a good or evil choice, it's how you go about it that is. And helping the Grove is a big word, as you can leave it in the hand of Khaga if you play your cards right effectively corrupting it (that path is a bit bugged right now).

On top of it, a cleric/paladin, especially the evil ones, should want to sabotage/destroy the Absolute cult, not join them.

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Eh the second you step beyond the gate towards the grove Astarion tells you we'd be better of leaving immediately because the goblins are coming. So without some metagaming involved I would skip the grove entirely.

Also: "killing is fun" = murder hobo = chaotic stupid again.

Last edited by Moirnelithe; 23/10/20 01:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Eh the second you step beyond the gate towards the grove Astarion tells you we'd be better of leaving immediately because the goblins are coming. So without some metagaming involved I would skip the grove entirely.

Also: "killing is fun" = murder hobo = chaotic stupid again.


Following the advice of the Chaotic Evil party member is such a good idea if you don't want to take chaotic stupid choices. /s

The "killing is fun" is an option at the party with Astarion too...

I don't remember all the dialogue options everywhere in the game, but there is plenty to say you did things for your own selfishness even when helping the grove.

Last edited by azarhal; 23/10/20 02:02 PM.
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Issue is there is no enticement to do anything evil, Larian wants us to test the evil run, use the tadpole, but everything in the game pushes us to do otherwise. If you are looking at the story from a logical standpoint. The only way you would end up with the Goblins and Minthara is if you act like a murder hobo, which I find not all that fun to roleplay. At the moment I'm in the Wrath of the Righteous Alpha, and within that game you have various ways to roleplay an evil character. Larian seemed to have went for the most basic form of evil, which isn't all that interesting.

I'm glad so many people have noticed this and gave feedback, I recall a stream from one of the writers that they're aware the evil route seems abit too "cartoon evil".

Last edited by Mozhad; 23/10/20 02:06 PM.
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Am I missing out on any gameplay or story by not using it at all?

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Originally Posted by Fungo
Am I missing out on any gameplay or story by not using it at all?



In a way, yes. Certain scenes won't play if you don't use the tadpole, but using the power is courting with corruption.

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Originally Posted by Mozhad
Issue is there is no enticement to do anything evil, Larian wants us to test the evil run, use the tadpole, but everything in the game pushes us to do otherwise. If you are looking at the story from a logical standpoint. The only way you would end up with the Goblins and Minthara is if you act like a murder hobo, which I find not all that fun to roleplay. At the moment I'm in the Wrath of the Righteous Alpha, and within that game you have various ways to roleplay an evil character. Larian seemed to have went for the most basic form of evil, which isn't all that interesting.

I'm glad so many people have noticed this and gave feedback, I recall a stream from one of the writers that they're aware the evil route seems abit too "cartoon evil".


The only reasons you equate joining the goblins as "basic form of evil" is because you have no idea what evil is.

Evil is selfishness.
Evil is a desire for power.
Evil is corrupting others.
Evil is not caring if people die (by your hand or others) to get what you wants.

The only one of these which require using the tadpole would be the "desire for power" and if your Will/Int is high enough you shouldn't even contemplate it.

The rest has multiple applications in various quests in the EA if you actually role-play your character instead of just trying to get the "best" outcome or get all the rewards. Quests don't have to be finished. You don't even have to help the grove/goblins to finish the EA.

Last edited by azarhal; 23/10/20 02:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Eh the second you step beyond the gate towards the grove Astarion tells you we'd be better of leaving immediately because the goblins are coming. So without some metagaming involved I would skip the grove entirely.

Also: "killing is fun" = murder hobo = chaotic stupid again.


Following the advice of the Chaotic Evil party member is such a good idea if you don't want to take chaotic stupid choices. /s

The "killing is fun" is an option at the party with Astarion too...

I don't remember all the dialogue options everywhere in the game, but there is plenty to say you did things for your own selfishness even when helping the grove.


Sticking around in the Druid grove to help whatever is going on is a good option. Trying an evil playthrough you wouldn't be interested other than for the reward / loot.

Playing evil also doesn't mean you have to join the absolute, but it definitely means not going around helping everyone in need without any reward.

Say you take the quest from the fake paladins, you ask immediately for a reward and he tells you of his uber magic sword, then the next thought would be 'Why not just kill him and take the sword?' for an evil roleplay.

Helping people because its the right thing to do = good.
Helping for payment / personal gain = neutral.
Helping only because you can't see an illegitimate way of gaining the reward sooner = evil.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 23/10/20 04:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Eh the second you step beyond the gate towards the grove Astarion tells you we'd be better of leaving immediately because the goblins are coming. So without some metagaming involved I would skip the grove entirely.

Also: "killing is fun" = murder hobo = chaotic stupid again.


Following the advice of the Chaotic Evil party member is such a good idea if you don't want to take chaotic stupid choices. /s

The "killing is fun" is an option at the party with Astarion too...

I don't remember all the dialogue options everywhere in the game, but there is plenty to say you did things for your own selfishness even when helping the grove.


Sticking around in the Druid grove to help whatever is going on is a good option. Trying an evil playthrough you wouldn't be interested other than for the reward / loot.

Playing evil also doesn't mean you have to join the absolute, but it definitely means not going around helping everyone in need without any reward.

Say you take the quest from the fake paladins, you ask immediately for a reward and he tells you of his uber magic sword, then the next thought would be 'Why not just kill him and take the sword?' for an evil roleplay.

Helping people because its the right thing to do = good.
Helping for payment / personal gain = neutral.
Helping only because you can't see an illegitimate way of gaining the reward sooner = evil.


You're evil characters don't want the Archdruid to take out the tadpole before it eat their brain? Ok...

Depending how many hidden DC you succeed at with the paladins, you might actually want to follow through their request. wink Especially if you are playing an evil cleric (or paladin at release). Corrupting good paladins is more fun than just killing them and taking their loot.

Also, I suggest you go read a D&D alignment guide, because you have no idea what neutral and evil stand for.

Last edited by azarhal; 23/10/20 04:45 PM.
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The Absolute definitely feels like Shar to me based on FR lore. And perhaps Shar has duped/recruited The Dead Three to her side.

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I think the idea of the tadpole is that you don't actually know.

It seems like an advantage because it's offering you great power but how often has that power been granted freely?

The
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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Mozhad
Issue is there is no enticement to do anything evil, Larian wants us to test the evil run, use the tadpole, but everything in the game pushes us to do otherwise. If you are looking at the story from a logical standpoint. The only way you would end up with the Goblins and Minthara is if you act like a murder hobo, which I find not all that fun to roleplay. At the moment I'm in the Wrath of the Righteous Alpha, and within that game you have various ways to roleplay an evil character. Larian seemed to have went for the most basic form of evil, which isn't all that interesting.

I'm glad so many people have noticed this and gave feedback, I recall a stream from one of the writers that they're aware the evil route seems abit too "cartoon evil".


The only reasons you equate joining the goblins as "basic form of evil" is because you have no idea what evil is.

Evil is selfishness.
Evil is a desire for power.
Evil is corrupting others.
Evil is not caring if people die (by your hand or others) to get what you wants.

The only one of these which require using the tadpole would be the "desire for power" and if your Will/Int is high enough you shouldn't even contemplate it.

The rest has multiple applications in various quests in the EA if you actually role-play your character instead of just trying to get the "best" outcome or get all the rewards. Quests don't have to be finished. You don't even have to help the grove/goblins to finish the EA.


And you're missing the point my post, there is no narrative connection that would lead the player to the goblins unless you are meta-gaming. As someone who commonly plays evil, I agreed with Astarion that we should find someone who can help you control the tadpole.

Yet, there are no npcs who leads you in that direction. You are surronded by npcs who are near experts who tell you that you that you need the tadpole out of your head. Thats the plot point thats pushed.

Even then Minthara tells you barely anything about being a true soul and if the cult finds out you are from the ship they want you dead. Lets not forget they try again after you help them on their murder hobo quest.

It is not about rewards, the evil path is clearly underdeveloped.

Last edited by Mozhad; 23/10/20 06:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nightshade3226
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Ashley1Black
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Yes, all your companions except Astarion will hate you.


I don't understand how we're supposed to run an evil campaign if that's the case. When playing an evil character it would be interesting to explore options like accepting Raphael's offer (which only Astarion and surprisingly Gale approve of) or use the tadpole. Getting disapproval hinders that.

Also, you have to choose Astarion, Shadowheart, and Lae'zel for an evil campaign, but Shadowheart and Lae'zel clash all the time. It's interesting to watch, but if they won't learn to get along it will be a problem. There are supposed to be more characters in the full game so maybe we'll be able to pick party members that won't antagonize each other.

Yes, this is one of the main issues I have with EA at the moment. Playing evil forces you to be chaotic stupid. Not only storywise but you get penalized even with these so called evil/neutral companions.

Tbh the only evil companion in the game seems to be Astarion and possibly Lae'zal. No idea why Gale or Wyll are even in my camp. And Shadowheart's only evil part seems to be the deity she worships.


It makes complete sense that the evil companions might dislike you for using the tadpole. Part of being evil is selfishness, self preservation and personal gain.

Becoming a mind flayer is NOT in your best interest. Even an evil character should have no interest in it. Being body snatched doesn't exactly sound like something an evil character would want.

It's kind of the same problem I have with siding with the goblins. It makes zero sense in the context of the story as we know it so far, even for an evil character. They make no argument as to why it would be in my own interest to side with them over the druids except...to join a crazy mind flayer worshiping cult that might end up turning me into one? Excuse me?

Chaotic Stupid is the best phrase I've heard for how that entire sequence plays out.

Personally, I think drow characters should have the ability to talk sense into Minthara and break her free from the Absolute and bring her back to Lolth. Have her join your camp, even if not as a full companion.


I justify siding with the goblins as it's the safest, they outnumber the druids/refugees, evil guy looking out for himself wants to join the winning side.

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What winning side is there? They want you dead before and afterwards? What reason is there when they hold the person who has the most information dealing with your possible transformation into a squid monster? If you care about your survival logically Halsin is your best bet, without meta-gaming the goblins offer you nothing.

No information, no rewards unless you only care about murder or sex with a drow. At the end of the day I can keep stating this until I'm blue in the face. But across different mediums the complaints are common and even the writers are aware. They even said its going to be looked at due to the "cartoon villany" within the route.


Last edited by Mozhad; 23/10/20 08:31 PM.
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