Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Oct 2020
D
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
D
Joined: Oct 2020
Hi, I was wondering if anyone has a deeper understanding of how the Hex spell works for the warlock? Specifically, what abilities should I be hexing? Should I only be hexing an enemy's charisma? Does that then give my Eldritch Blast a better chance to hit since its based on my charisma?

The text from the players handbook says "Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability"

Where Im a little vague is what constitutes an "ability check"? For instance saving throws are made according to ability scores, so does a saving throw count as an ability check as far as Hex is concerned? The players handbook suggests that saving throws and ability checks are not the same thing, but is that how the Hex spell sees it?

The wording for Hex is so vague, and yet, not vague. My understanding is that ability checks are things like perception checks, intellect checks, history checks, that sort of thing. None of which really seems applicable in a combat situation, where Hex is most likely to be used.

I realize that really the most important thing about Hex is just the extra 1D6 necrotic damage, so maybe the actual ability getting hexed isnt all that important, but maybe it is and I just dont know it yet.

And even if someone does understand how Hex works in regards to the players handbook, does that mean it works that way in BG3?

If anyone understands any of this and somehow didnt get a splitting headache from reading this post, Id love to hear from you.

Last edited by DarkRob316; 23/10/20 11:07 PM.
Joined: Jun 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2017
EDIT:

Oops, my bad, at least according to 5e, it would only be on ability checks (history, insight, etc).
That being said, a FEW of these can happen in combat. If part of a spell specifically calls out them making an athletics or acrobatics check to counter it. Though spells are usually saves which (shouldnt) be effected.
There are some things like countering a shove that should be contested by the targets Athletics or Acrobatics, in which case Hex could help there.
Unfortunately it's not always clear if Larian is doing things as they are done in D&D or bending the rules behind the scene.

Last edited by Nezix; 23/10/20 10:45 PM.
Joined: Jun 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2017
Furthermore, you could test this a few ways. Hex someone's Dex and then try to shove them. See if they do it at disadvantage (I think you can find this in the combat log). Repeat with Grease (shouldn't but again, who knows). Also attempt choosing STR for the shove test since normally the person being shoved or grappled has a choice between Athletics (Str) and Acrobatics (Dex)... though if they're smart like a player they would pick the one without disadvantage so (shrug).

Joined: Oct 2020
D
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
D
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Nezix
Furthermore, you could test this a few ways. Hex someone's Dex and then try to shove them. See if they do it at disadvantage (I think you can find this in the combat log). Repeat with Grease (shouldn't but again, who knows). Also attempt choosing STR for the shove test since normally the person being shoved or grappled has a choice between Athletics (Str) and Acrobatics (Dex)... though if they're smart like a player they would pick the one without disadvantage so (shrug).



Those are some good ideas for tests, Il try those, thanks.

This line of thought also makes me wonder, would an enemy's attack roll constitute an "ability check" under this line of thinking?

For instance, as an example, if an enemy is shooting at me from range with a shortbow, and I hex their dexterity, would that impose a disadvantage on the enemy's chance to hit me?

Joined: Jun 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2017
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
Originally Posted by Nezix
Furthermore, you could test this a few ways. Hex someone's Dex and then try to shove them. See if they do it at disadvantage (I think you can find this in the combat log). Repeat with Grease (shouldn't but again, who knows). Also attempt choosing STR for the shove test since normally the person being shoved or grappled has a choice between Athletics (Str) and Acrobatics (Dex)... though if they're smart like a player they would pick the one without disadvantage so (shrug).



Those are some good ideas for tests, Il try those, thanks.

This line of thought also makes me wonder, would an enemy's attack roll constitute an "ability check" under this line of thinking?

For instance, as an example, if an enemy is shooting at me from range with a shortbow, and I hex their dexterity, would that impose a disadvantage on the enemy's chance to hit me?


In real D&D no, it should only be cases where actual abilities (insight, history, etc) are used, and not just things using the stats. But, ultimately how it's implemented here isn't known to us.

Joined: Oct 2020
F
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
F
Joined: Oct 2020
Yes hex is indded strange since it's meant to be a combat-oriented spell, thus affecting saving throws related to chosen stat.

I thought it will increase chances to hit with some spell effects like hold person (cursing Wisdom) or grease (Cursing Dexterity), but if hex only affect related abilities, most of all if not totally useless in combat, then yes hex is not really good ; +1d6 necrotic, wich is also not upscaled with upper level of the spell, and requiring concentration + a spell slot... meh.

Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.

Joined: Oct 2020
D
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
D
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.


Yea why is Shadowhearts cantrip so bad anyway? Firebolt is good, Eldritch Blast is amazing, but you get maybe 55-60% chance to hit on a good day with Sacred Flame, and that's with the high ground.

Sacred Flame seems gimped compared to other cantrips. Or maybe it's just that firebolt and Eldritch Blast are so much better than all the other cantrips.

As far as Hex goes it seems like there's no sure way to know how it's working in the game, but at least I'm getting some good ideas for experiments to try with it. Il try hexing wisdom and see if I notice Sacred Flame getting better hit chances.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Joined: Mar 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2020
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.


Yea why is Shadowhearts cantrip so bad anyway? Firebolt is good, Eldritch Blast is amazing, but you get maybe 55-60% chance to hit on a good day with Sacred Flame, and that's with the high ground.

Sacred Flame seems gimped compared to other cantrips. Or maybe it's just that firebolt and Eldritch Blast are so much better than all the other cantrips.



It's a consequence of Larian's tweaking of 5th ed rules. On tabletop firebolt and sacred flame are equally effective but with lowered AC and bloated HP any attack with "to hit" chance is superior to one with a saving throw. This problem will cascade to higher levels where fireball -- the crowd control spell -- will no longer clear rooms because many enemies will pass their savings throw and those who didn't will still have enough HP to threaten the party.

If they were to return to 5th ed, Eldritch Blast would miss more often and sacred flame would be more effective.

Joined: Oct 2020
D
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
D
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.


Yea why is Shadowhearts cantrip so bad anyway? Firebolt is good, Eldritch Blast is amazing, but you get maybe 55-60% chance to hit on a good day with Sacred Flame, and that's with the high ground.

Sacred Flame seems gimped compared to other cantrips. Or maybe it's just that firebolt and Eldritch Blast are so much better than all the other cantrips.



It's a consequence of Larian's tweaking of 5th ed rules. On tabletop firebolt and sacred flame are equally effective but with lowered AC and bloated HP any attack with "to hit" chance is superior to one with a saving throw. This problem will cascade to higher levels where fireball -- the crowd control spell -- will no longer clear rooms because many enemies will pass their savings throw and those who didn't will still have enough HP to threaten the party.

If they were to return to 5th ed, Eldritch Blast would miss more often and sacred flame would be more effective.


I do love Eldritch Blast, but il admit, to me it seems like hands down the best of all cantrips. So long as you remember to get the positional advantage, it's almost always over at least 90% chance to hit. This seems excessively high to me relative to other cantrips.

I think, on the whole, I could live with it being a little less effective if it meant all the other cantrips were on more of an even keel with each other. Especially if whatever is causing it to be so good is going to have consequences going forward with higher level spells like you mentioned.



Joined: Oct 2020
F
member
Offline
member
F
Joined: Oct 2020
One thing that is an ability check as per 5e rules is the initiative roll. So if you can Hex someone's DEX before the fight starts it should hurt their initiative.

I have no evidence to suggest this works in BG3 though

Joined: Oct 2020
S
stranger
Offline
stranger
S
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.


Yea why is Shadowhearts cantrip so bad anyway? Firebolt is good, Eldritch Blast is amazing, but you get maybe 55-60% chance to hit on a good day with Sacred Flame, and that's with the high ground.

Sacred Flame seems gimped compared to other cantrips. Or maybe it's just that firebolt and Eldritch Blast are so much better than all the other cantrips.



Technically, both Firebolt and Eldritch Blast attack the target's AC and thus fall under the height rules for advantage, etc.

Sacred Flame does not target AC, thus you are directly affecting the mob's saving throw and not AC and can't gain advantage for height, etc. You can, however, blind target a mob with Sacred Flame and the same can't be said for the other cantrips that require line of sight.

I tend to Hex against whatever CC save I need, the spell tooltips should tell you what save they target, but against goblins I just hex to add to the damage because they don't have a ton of hp anyway.

Hope that helps!

Sheyde

Joined: Oct 2020
J
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
J
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
I've found, in the game's current state, that Hex: Wisdom works best to help with Shadowheart's atrocious default damage cantrip and Hex:Dexterity to help support Lae'zel's STR-based pushing tactics or casters using grease and ice.


Yea why is Shadowhearts cantrip so bad anyway? Firebolt is good, Eldritch Blast is amazing, but you get maybe 55-60% chance to hit on a good day with Sacred Flame, and that's with the high ground.

Sacred Flame seems gimped compared to other cantrips. Or maybe it's just that firebolt and Eldritch Blast are so much better than all the other cantrips.

As far as Hex goes it seems like there's no sure way to know how it's working in the game, but at least I'm getting some good ideas for experiments to try with it. Il try hexing wisdom and see if I notice Sacred Flame getting better hit chances.

Thanks for the tips guys.


As others have mentioned there are some cantrips/spells that are forcing a DC save on a creature vs an attack roll. DC is 8 + Proficiency + Ability mod of that class. So on Average the DC save for Shadowheart at level 4 would be around DC 13/14, meaning the mob has to roll that number with their saving throws to see if they get hit or not.

those DC saves are good against stuff that has High AC since you can bypass that and force a save. Or if the mob is prone or height its good for targetting to avoid the disadvantages.

For Hex, its great to have the utility to debuff a baddie on a saving throw if you plan to try and knock it prone, Grapples ( when they add it ) or for other potential spells the party has.

Joined: Oct 2020
F
member
Offline
member
F
Joined: Oct 2020
The other thing that might be useful with Hex would be to target wisdom checks, since this may help hiding characters to avoid being spotted.

Joined: Oct 2020
F
member
Offline
member
F
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by FenrisC
Yes hex is indded strange since it's meant to be a combat-oriented spell, thus affecting saving throws related to chosen stat.

I thought it will increase chances to hit with some spell effects like hold person (cursing Wisdom) or grease (Cursing Dexterity), but if hex only affect related abilities, most of all if not totally useless in combat, then yes hex is not really good ; +1d6 necrotic, wich is also not upscaled with upper level of the spell, and requiring concentration + a spell slot... meh.


That +1d6 is on each attack - once warlocks hit level 5 they should be able to Eldritch Blast twice as one action.


Moderated by  Nicou 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5