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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.


Or they could have left their AC and HP values untouched. Novel idea, I know....

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.



Why trash mobs have to be able to withstand in a fight for some time? I enjoy blow them away with one fireball. I have the feeling that you don’t understand what trash mobs are, and why they exists.

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?

Your math is inaccurate. That warrior with that attack roll modifier would also get +3 to his damage rolls meaning his avatage damge wouldnt be 4 but 7. Not to mention that dnd is a game about dice. You will get high rolls, you will get low rolls. For a fighter for that weapon however (D8 damage die) 4 and up (so half of the possible die results) instantly kill that goblin. Also goblins have leather armor alongside their shields with a dex mod of 2 gives them that AC15. The ones with bows would be easier to hit because of the lack of a shield.

Now try to 1 hit the Larians Goblins with the same fighter. Even with a crit its almost impossible to 1 shot them. And the few times that it does happen mean that you cant rely on it beeing an effective tactic.

Also some other lvl 1 spells that easily CAN kill Goblins in 1 hit: magic missle, burning hands (3d6 in a cone, auto hits but dex save for half), Eldritch blast (with the bonus from your casting mod mind you. which ive seen most warlocks take), Chromatic orb are some easy examples that could do it no problem. But even CANTRIPS can 1 shot Goblins under normal circumstances in pnp dnd.

In bg3 atm though? Non of that applies. Goblins are a threat because of their numbers and because they may ambush unsuspecting targets. Here though theyre also a threat because you cant kill them fast enough and because they still have those numbers that they would normally have. The spellcasters added ontop of that throw even more mud in the water. They should be quite rare for goblins but most groups in the camp have at least 1 if not more spell casters amongst their numbers.


Oh you're right, I forget that the modifier also apply to damage !
I'll do it again and try considering spells because even if I don't know everything about D&D, I have the same feelings about how negative what they did is bad for the game.

I'll continue to try to understand why they did that because that argument seems really bad to me :
Originally Posted by Rhobar121

I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/10/20 02:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.


Or they could have left their AC and HP values untouched. Novel idea, I know....

Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.

What?

These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!

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Originally Posted by dunehunter
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.



Why trash mobs have to be able to withstand in a fight for some time? I enjoy blow them away with one fireball. I have the feeling that you don’t understand what trash mobs are, and why they exists.


There should be no such thing as tash mobs in a turn-based game. Fighting them is pointless if there aren't enough of them to be dangerous.
Maybe some people like boring fights, but I don't.



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Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.


Yes, you can. Burning hands for eg can kill a couple of then.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.


Yes, you can. Burning hands for eg can kill a couple of then.


Ok. What if you don't have the appropriate class or spell slots.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.

1: isent actually that much of a dumb move considering we can otherwise res them in a fight. Making sure they stay down CAN be a good move, although not always.
2: That needs to change. Agreed.
3: The original baldurs gate handled this very well. Unless you had some meta knowledge about 2 rings it would take a decent amount of time before you stumbled upon magical items.
4: Agreed.

Not all gear that you find has to be magical btw. Or only have advantages. A great move would be if you found some non magical items that just behaved a little differently or allowed you to use them in a different manner. Making a sweeping attack with them for example or allowing you to cripple an enemy with a succesfull attack. Im just spitballing ideas but it could work and be implemented nicely.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121


Ok. What if you don't have the appropriate class or spell slots.


Then is your fault. Running out of resources or trying to play a high magical fantasy game without a caster is not a good idea.

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I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.

I don't know if that is doable due to the fact that BG3 relay on D&D rules, still I think they would do a difficulty choose menu (unless they are going to risk lots of players quiting the game because they're not interested on spend time searching a strategy or that get tired fi they line up a seires of natural 1s ).

To me is catchy the fact that I have to find the smart use of barrels, altitude, spells ^^ (but sometimes I really want to throw the pc out of the windows laugh laugh )

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Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.

I don't know if that is doable due to the fact that BG3 relay on D&D rules, still I think they would do a difficulty choose menu (unless they are going to risk lots of players quiting the game because they're not interested on spend time searching a strategy or that get tired fi they line up a seires of natural 1s ).

To me is catchy the fact that I have to find the smart use of barrels, altitude, spells ^^ (but sometimes I really want to throw the pc out of the windows laugh laugh )



Mentioning future difficulties (you did not say this btw) what is with this notion that increased HP is the only way to balance difficulty level?? So many other ways to make encounters harder that does not even need to scale HP in any way. In my mind HP is the lazy way to increase difficulty of an encounter as there are way more compelling ways to do so that keep encounter fast and lethal without sacrificing tactics

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Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example

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I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.

Id prefer if they instead 'spiked' damage rolls and initiaitve in thr npc's favour on higher difficulties. Maybe give them an extra point of ac or something? But just more hp is abit... boring

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.

Id prefer if they instead 'spiked' damage rolls and initiaitve in thr npc's favour on higher difficulties. Maybe give them an extra point of ac or something? But just more hp is abit... boring


+1

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Glad to see this thread getting as long as it is -- let's hope Larian is taking notice.

For me the thing I don't like about HP bloat is the way it nerfs casters. Sacred flame should be just as strong as firebolt but it's not because you have a much better chance at making to hit roll than having the enemy fail its savings roll. Unless you increase the power of sleep and fireball to make up for bloated HP those spells are effectively nerfed meaning the caster can no longer serve as crowd control.

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Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example


Exactly this, first it was a meme of oh is EA, ignore it... But in seriousness, is EA and they are asking for feedback and you have to take all the criticism. I suggest everyone to keep posting their feedback of the EA, and don't let other tell you "just wait" or "get over it" ....

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.


HP inflation makes the game X more hard and X³ more boring.



Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Glad to see this thread getting as long as it is -- let's hope Larian is taking notice.

For me the thing I don't like about HP bloat is the way it nerfs casters. Sacred flame should be just as strong as firebolt but it's not because you have a much better chance at making to hit roll than having the enemy fail its savings roll. Unless you increase the power of sleep and fireball to make up for bloated HP those spells are effectively nerfed meaning the caster can no longer serve as crowd control.


Yep. Lets hope that someone in Larian is taking feedback into account.

And as I've said months ago. One change on AC/hp will need to lead to a CHAIN REACTION OF CHANGES If enemies has 2x hp but half miss change, you din't just messed with the marital combat making the game less lethal but with equal pacing. You made all spells which deals damage or scale with hp half as effective.

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