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Vhaldez #715563 24/10/20 06:13 PM
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That would involve either removing the goblins or make sure they can safely leave in some other manner. And we already established its essentially not their problem.

Why, what do you think is their 'simple' solution?

Demoulius #715568 24/10/20 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius

Why, what do you think is their 'simple' solution?


Murdering everyone. This is apparently a non-chaotic evil path you can pick, although I personally have never seen it. The Tieflings will all shout "the druids have gone mad!" while you cut their famillies down and at the end Kagha coldly tells you that you are no longer required, then seals the grove.

How are the other druids okay with this? Are they too "afraid"?

EDIT: Here's proof:

I first started by talking to Kagha and receiving a command to drive the tieflings out of the grove. I figured getting rid of tieflings would remove three whole fights, so I went to Zevlor and asked him to remove his people. He gave me a quest to talk to Wyll and do the standard "kill three goblin leaders" business, but I insisted about him having to go away now. This makes Zevlor attack, and needless to say he didn't live.

This is where the interesting things started happening. Afte reporting Zevlor's death to Kagha, she says you still need to remove all other tieflings, and it should be "even easier" now. That's a lie - no matter how many tieflings I tried to talk to, there was no option to make them feel unwelcome. Trying to purge them manually (I started from Arabella's parents) resulted in the druids acting like standard guards, and offering me a fine or prison. Clearly, the druids have no appreciation for the fine art of ethnic cleansing.

I decided to approach the situation from the other end, and kill druids first - or at the very least, Kagha. I did the quest about shadow druids in the swamp. The quest ended with Kagha and the shadow druids dead, after which I turned on Rath. This is where things turned from "interesting" to "broken". First of all, I noticed that Kagha's death failed to reflect in any way in my journal. Secondly, for some reason, neither Rath, nor his wolf reacted at all to being murdered, and I just stabbed them repeatedly as they just stood there.

After Rath died, I proceeded to start the purge on the outside. Curiously, only about half the NPCs turned hostile after being attacked - the other half watched the first half being killed. Far more curiously, I saw three tieflings inside the grove, speaking between each other as if the tieflings attacked the druids, and killed them all. Upon being spoken to, however, they had different dialogue - implying that the druids are in the process of attacking, and they fear for their lives.

After killing the druids and the tieflings both, I headed to the refugee camp, where tieflings stood armed. They also had strange dialogue that implied they're under attack by the druids. I killed them all, and headed to the Makeshift Prison - for some reason, every single tiefling civilian NPC was gathered inside. Probably, another result of the imaginary race war against the non-existent druids.

https://i.imgur.com/GiQqJPx.jpg

Having killed those too, I killed two or three tieflings by the gate. I then ran around the grove and the camp to make sure every single soul there was dead - which I had to confirm, because I did not have any journal entry I expected on the matter. Upon confirming it, I teleported to the goblin camp and spoke to Minthara. There were no lines of dialogue anywhere that allowed me to say the job was already done before it was given to me, so I agreed on the ridiculous plan of attacking an empty grove.

https://i.imgur.com/HjyTx4o.jpeg

Normally, you return to find the gate closed, and a cutscene plays where the tieflings open them for you and let you in. There, during the dialogue with Zevlor, you get an opportunity for betrayal. However, because Zevlor was already dead, and so were all other tieflings, no events trigger. I broke the gates with melee attacks, and ran around on top, even turning the now useless winch and blowing the war horn to see if it will make the goblin army spawn, but no such thing happened. The journal entry of the quest tells you to return to tieflings, so it appears that you absolutely have to have Zevlor alive for the army to spawn.

https://i.imgur.com/xFbxntQ.jpeg

tl; dr - if you decide to kill tieflings and druids out of your own volition, strange bugs happen. Zevlor being alive, for a bizarre reason, is absolutely mandatory for the "Raid the Grove" quest to proceed normally, and his death breaks it.

Fun fact - if Zevlor dies, he has a grave by the gates. You can dig up his body, and if you're a cleric, you also have some unique lines on the matter.

https://i.imgur.com/htBhlmY.jpeg


Last edited by Vhaldez; 24/10/20 06:19 PM.
Vhaldez #715578 24/10/20 06:35 PM
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1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.


Vhaldez #715581 24/10/20 06:36 PM
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Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.

ScouseSorcerer1 #715587 24/10/20 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.




I understand what Shadow Druids are supposed to be. What I don't get is how an entire cabal of them managed to infiltrate a circle like the one Kagha is a member of because of a non-conflict with refugees. Do Shadow Druid circles actively look for groves in mild distress (with an absent leader!) to subvert them?

The argument about food is not mine and I honestly am indifferent as to why there would or would not be supply issues with the refugees. The Tieflings brought oxen and other foodstuffs with them so food is probably not even an issue. It is also not why Kagha wants them gone. She is just a racist extremist with shallow motivations. Nobody in their right mind would be okay with ethnic cleansing as a solution to this situation unless all the druids are uncomfortably racist against Tieflings as well, to the point where they even consider their women and children as fair game for murder.

Which then begs the question; why is everyone so okay with being comically racist against goblins? At least they are native to Faer没n, right?

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


She is a standin for any populist politician but only if you want to bring that into the discussion, which is a bad call when there are so many other problems with her character. I just want to address this now so we can avoid having the entire narrative vehicle of BGIII be about racism and refugees.

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ScouseSorcerer1 #715593 24/10/20 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.


1 goodberry spell feeds 10 people for a day. A lvl 1 druid has 2 of these and im going to assume that most of the druids will be higher level. The idea that they cant spare 5 or 6 (guessing on their numbers, could be less) lvl 1 spells for goodverry and 1 for water is laughable. Noone would take that as a serious reason why feeding these people would be a problem.

They wouldnt need to help them beyond that though. Keeping them fed also preserves the balance as it is. In the sense that a status quo doesent change anyway.

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?

Demoulius #715630 24/10/20 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?


Enlist our help and not be complete jerks about it? Lol come to think of it, Wyll has a ready-made plan for them...

Eddiar #715724 24/10/20 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.

Vhaldez #715741 24/10/20 09:54 PM
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I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.


Imora DalSyn #716122 25/10/20 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Contra
I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I have to admit that I missed the dialogue referring to the druids' dead, I thought there was none to begin with. We are indeed told that the refugees' main problem is causing monster attacks at the grove, but that raises two questions; why do the druids see goblins, who are part of nature, as "monsters" to the point where they begin to see Tieflings as unnatural abominations that need to be culled, and what you say in this next part below.
Originally Posted by Contra

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

100% agreed. The druid grove should be a Bitter Springs type of location if you are familliar with that from F:NV. Druids and refugees intermingling, struggling both to get by.
Originally Posted by Contra

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.

The Goodberry argument is a DnD problem and not really something BGIII should look to resolve. If they just say the refugees are straining the druids' supplies nobody is going to be the guy who points out magical food is endless as it renders farming obsolete, removes food from politics completely etc. A huge mess better left untouched.
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.

This is why I want to address this now. Imagine if the rest of the story in Act II following the Tieflings' escape is all about how the (coincidentally mocapped by black and asian actors) Tiefling race is totally unwelcome there and all the other races banding together against this affront to Faer没n's natural order, lol.

Vhaldez #716147 25/10/20 10:01 AM
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100% agree with OP here, and that's something I did include in the feedback I sent Larian, though you said it a lot better yourself smile

M3r4 #716172 25/10/20 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by M3r4
100% agree with OP here, and that's something I did include in the feedback I sent Larian, though you said it a lot better yourself smile


Thank you for reminding me, I have just submitted this forum post as feedback to Larian.

Vhaldez #716293 25/10/20 01:31 PM
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That whole part of the game including the sham trial is completely broken nonsensical mess - because someone decided to force a real world situation into a specific DnD lore and setting that does not fit that "problem" at all.
That is why the player never gets numerous common sense dialogue options and why everything, every single thing about this whole sub plot is completely illogical and broken, From the internal DnD setting and lore angle, as well as from the "real world" angle and logic or any common sense consideration. I criticized it heavily in my post about writing that was mostly about the very start of the game, because it deserves harsh criticism.
Everything about it needs to be rewritten. Especially that horribly done sham trial.

First of, Druids and Khaga think the attacks are happening only because of the refugees - but why? It doesnt make any sense they would think so.
Even if they all turned into bigoted racists (ridiculous nonsense by itself) they don't have any info that specific or any reason to think attacks would stop if refugees are gone.

The Goblin, Minthara angle also needs to be expanded upon because what we get is insufficiently limited. She says they are out to kill all heretics, right. But that also includes the Druids and everyone else not in the Cult.
Well then, once we get that info we should be able to use it when talking to Druids - to make them see the attacks are not happening just because of the Tieflings and that they wont stop just because Tieflings have gone.

If Khaga has her own issues those should be motivated by her Shadow druidic ideology. And if we go by that logic, she should be interested in wiping out both the Goblins and the Tieflings, not because she is a bigot and a "racist" but because thats how Shadow Druids think and operate - kill everyone so the Nature is restored. A super duper extreme Greenpeace squad. If anything she should be trying to manipulate everyone into mutually destructive conflict - after which she will do the ritual and seal the grove... And if she is doing that then it needs to be a secret. She is undermining the Druid order from the inside. Secretly. (a secret we could discover and reveal for different purposes to different NPCs, of course)

As it is right now, and i consider this whole plot an unfinished very early EA version, not even revealing she is a Shadow Druid achieves anything. She gets a slap on the wrist and remains in the grove to re-learn the values... which is complete ridiculous nonsense.

Even so, having a new power near the Grove bent on destroying everyone not just because of "religious reasons" but because that new power is trying to expand its territory, power and influence - only its minions dont necessarily understand that (they dont even understand they have Illithid tadpoles implanted) - but the player should be able to figure all that out in a way where it represent a useful info.

So then, Khaga should be trying to get you and the Tieflings, other Druids and the Goblins to kill each other, and she would seek to do the ritual to seal the Grove and take it for herself and her Shadow Druid cabal.
Goblins and the Absolute would be complete enemies to her, worse then some refugees in many ways.

The Absolute would be trying to destroy the Druids and the Shadow Druids in that region, because it wants control. And even if Shadow druids are also evil, the two sides are so opposite to each other no cooperation would be possible.
Except maybe both sides would try to cheat the other and come on top in the end. (perfect opportunity for evil players to juggle with)

Druids should in fact be concerned about the attacks and the Goblins regardless of the refugees, instead of just thinking whoever is the boss thinks - and if they would want refugees gone then it should be for simple but logical reasons, such as not wanting so many people living there and spoiling their groove in the Grove. Building houses, or Silvanus help us, establishing a ghastly town and, gasp, a civilization right there. This could be easily shown by making the Grove looking overcrowded, Tieflings kids running around making mess of things, trampling over flowers, messing up daily rituals and so on. Maybe they would be worried Tieflings would somehow cause the Grove to slide into the Hell, like Ethuriel city did. That would make at least some internal logic sense.
Only they cant just boot them out because that would be murder in the situation.

They cant let them stay, they cant let them go.

So then they would welcome you to solve the issue and find a secure way to the Baldurs gate.


But all that is useless if the devs just want to force a current real word problem into the game in a very superficial and cheap ways.



Demoulius #716319 25/10/20 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....


Seriously the vendors are restocking their trade goods every long rest? If they can get infinite +1 weapons, potions & scrolls every day from elsewhere, even if they could not create the food needed, you think those supplies would be more needed then stuff to sell to adventures.

Vhaldez #716343 25/10/20 02:30 PM
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I agree that this side story / quest just has too many issue and not sure it could be fixed without a lot of work.

At the end of the day, does it really effect the main story of Goblin VS Tieflings?

I love that Larian trying to add all these side quests but I doubt they have the resources to make them all perfect so I would rather that time goes into the main quest.

I would suggest the following.

1. Drop the Kagda kills the kid. Without the child dying, no reason for Zelvor to want to hire you to kill Kagda.
2. Tone down the xenophobia and just have Kadga focus on sealing the inner grove. As far as she is concerned, the Tieflings can keep the outer caves, her Druids will be safe in the inner grove.
3. Set a timer of like 7 Long Rests for Kagda to seal the inner grove if the Tiefling have not moved into your camp.
4. If the inner grove is sealed, you lose access to the Halfling trader.
5. The Goblins still need to be dealt with so the Tieflings are safe.
6. If you decide to side with the Goblins, check to see if inner grove is sealed, if so, double the Tiefling defenders to get the Goblin raid that feeling it now has. Minthara will be upset at you about not being able to kill all the Druids but still should be able to follow her betraying you in your camp stuff.
7. If you defeat the Goblins, have Hassan comment about being uphappy that the inner grove is sealed but he joining your camp so it not like he really cares about the grove.

I think it would be easier to trim down this subplot to make it seem more logical without really effecting the main story much.

Surface R #716518 25/10/20 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R
That whole part of the game including the sham trial is completely broken nonsensical mess - because someone decided to force a real world situation into a specific DnD lore and setting that does not fit that "problem" at all.
That is why the player never gets numerous common sense dialogue options and why everything, every single thing about this whole sub plot is completely illogical and broken, From the internal DnD setting and lore angle, as well as from the "real world" angle and logic or any common sense consideration. I criticized it heavily in my post about writing that was mostly about the very start of the game, because it deserves harsh criticism.
Everything about it needs to be rewritten. Especially that horribly done sham trial.


What worries me the most is that I keep finding worse tidbits of this real world situation. "Refugees good, xenophobia bad" being the prevailing factor in them. Halsin for example sends for an outsider to become the new first druid in his absence when he joins your camp and delivers a speech about how sometimes foreigners are needed to provide a fresh perspective on things, how you must not close yourself off from the outside world, bla bla bla. It is painful to listen to. Why did they feel the need to put such a message in their fantasy roleplaying game where borders don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Contra
I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I have to admit that I missed the dialogue referring to the druids' dead, I thought there was none to begin with. We are indeed told that the refugees' main problem is causing monster attacks at the grove, but that raises two questions; why do the druids see goblins, who are part of nature, as "monsters" to the point where they begin to see Tieflings as unnatural abominations that need to be culled, and what you say in this next part below.
Originally Posted by Contra

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

100% agreed. The druid grove should be a Bitter Springs type of location if you are familliar with that from F:NV. Druids and refugees intermingling, struggling both to get by.
Originally Posted by Contra

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.

The Goodberry argument is a DnD problem and not really something BGIII should look to resolve. If they just say the refugees are straining the druids' supplies nobody is going to be the guy who points out magical food is endless as it renders farming obsolete, removes food from politics completely etc. A huge mess better left untouched.
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.

This is why I want to address this now. Imagine if the rest of the story in Act II following the Tieflings' escape is all about how the (coincidentally mocapped by black and asian actors) Tiefling race is totally unwelcome there and all the other races banding together against this affront to Faer没n's natural order, lol.

Larian is located in Belgian. I really dont see the comparison to Trump though... maybe if she yelled 'make the grove great again' then sure. But as is shes just xenophobic and rude.

Also about the goodberries. I can guarantee you that if I put this scenario about the refugees taking up all their food they would have questions for me before I even finished my sentance. Not thinking about it because its a dnd problem and not a bg3 problem also doesent make sense. Bg3 is using dnd rules and is set in their universe. If npc's blurt out something that is obviously a lie the players should be able to bring that up in dialogue...

And about borders. They very much excist. Faerun has nations with borders just like the real world. Its one of the more common reason why conflict excists in dnd. What makes people say they dont excist?

Demoulius #716577 25/10/20 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius

Larian is located in Belgian. I really dont see the comparison to Trump though... maybe if she yelled 'make the grove great again' then sure. But as is shes just xenophobic and rude.


Kagha is a vehicle for any demagogue ever and has nothing to do with Trump. The problem is not that she has disagreeable views but that her character is nonsensical.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

And about borders. They very much excist. Faerun has nations with borders just like the real world. Its one of the more common reason why conflict excists in dnd. What makes people say they dont excist?


The modern phenomenon of borders comes from the idea of nationhood and sovereignty. Faer没n is a medieval fantasy world where there are toll houses and trade routes like in our middle ages, but no legally recognised and rigid borders because of the way vassalage works and how decentralised medieval realms are. I think Larian knows this, because besides the Tieflings everyone is everywhere; there is no Africa analogue where all the black humans come from, no Asia or Europe etc. which is why there is two black humans in the druid grove and thus racism should not exist in the way it does in our world unless you find a reall hamfisted way to force it into your story. Like bringing an entire outside race over from another dimension. 馃檮

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Faer没n is a colourblind wonderland where racial differences are overlooked or races have distinct homelands that they rarely travel away from, which means our party is looked at funny everywhere they go. Come to think of it, this problem is kind of like your average IRL DnD session where everyone is an absurd exotic rare and nothing in your party makes sense. You ignore it because it makes you uncomfortable when you dwell on it too much.

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The idea that Faerun or dnd as a whole doesent know borders is outright false. Just as the notion that during the middle ages we dident have borders. Are you serious? Ofcourse we had borders. Why does everyone believe that the people in the middle ages were uncultured swines who had no form of common sense, were all illiterate and dident wash.

They had maps with clearly defined borders just like they have in dnd.

Maybe they werent as accurate as maps today are, but the notion that they dident have any at all is laughably false.

Demoulius #716618 25/10/20 06:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
The idea that Faerun or dnd as a whole doesent know borders is outright false. Just as the notion that during the middle ages we dident have borders. Are you serious? Ofcourse we had borders. Why does everyone believe that the people in the middle ages were uncultured swines who had no form of common sense, were all illiterate and dident wash.


Maybe they werent as accurate as maps today are, but the notion that they dident have any at all is laughably false.


I never said that. Borders are no a sign of enculturation either. What I meant is that border legality is an invented concept that has no bearing on reality unless you start enforcing borders with milltary force, which medieval states never committed enough resources to. You had realms with claims but no state back then was so centralised that it could enforce something like modern day borders or even Roman limes imperii. In the middle ages territory was controlled indirectly through an interdependent relationship between the lord and his vassals. It never came down to rigid lines on a map because nobody was capable of enforcing their borders so strongly.

If you want an example, here is a map of the Netherlands in 1300;

[Linked Image]


See all those enclaves and exclaves? That is because there is a difference between de jure lands and de facto lands.

Anyway, enough history lessons. None of this really matters in the setting of BGIII beyond the point that it makes Kagha's plotline look silly.

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