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Vhaldez #716648 25/10/20 07:20 PM
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Whats your point exactly? That they did not have clearly defined borders with a map? That they dont have clearly defined property borders? Where do you base these assumptions on?

In dnd they do have armies who maintain there borders and border conflict happens all the time. Some nations are marred with borders conflicts between them and their neighbours. One region's basic premise (border kingdoms) is that its borders basicly change by the day. Why would that make the region special if it happened everywhere?

Agree that Kahga's situation is silly. But borders have nothing to do with it

Demoulius #716654 25/10/20 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Whats your point exactly? That they did not have clearly defined borders with a map? That they dont have clearly defined property borders? Where do you base these assumptions on?

In dnd they do have armies who maintain there borders and border conflict happens all the time. Some nations are marred with borders conflicts between them and their neighbours. One region's basic premise (border kingdoms) is that its borders basicly change by the day. Why would that make the region special if it happened everywhere?

Agree that Kahga's situation is silly. But borders have nothing to do with it


Today, borders are widely recognised as complex multileveled and -layered social phenomena related to the fundamental organisation of society as well as human psychology. This is not, however, been always the case, but the way borders have been viewed and interpreted has evolved – much in line with broader discursive shifts in social sciences as well as in relation to overlying geopolitical events. This has resulted in clear discursive shifts in understanding and framing borders. The traditional definitions and comprehension of borders have been challenged primarily because the context in which they were created and existed has also altered.

(2) (PDF) A historical view on the study of borders. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319876230_A_historical_view_on_the_study_of_borders [accessed Oct 25 2020].


Kahga is a nativist in this story but is perfectly okay with her racially diverse circle of druids, for some reason Tieflings is where she draws the line. As someone else pointed out in this thread her focus should be on exterminating the enemies of nature in goblins and Tieflings both, which should be communicated clearly. What does Kahga do right now? Call a demon child a parasite, kill it, cringe and speech about "protecting her people".

Where borders (don't) come in is that Larian has essentially created the only possible scenario in this area where there is a group of people who want another group of people to get out of their land. The problem is that this land is really a big house that they were not really using anyway, the other group of people is defending it themselves and the immediate solution that is on the table is mass murder for some reason. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to put a racism allegory into a medieval fantasy setting while also presenting an as diverse and harmonious society as possible is truly staggering.

Demoulius #716691 25/10/20 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.


1 goodberry spell feeds 10 people for a day. A lvl 1 druid has 2 of these and im going to assume that most of the druids will be higher level. The idea that they cant spare 5 or 6 (guessing on their numbers, could be less) lvl 1 spells for goodverry and 1 for water is laughable. Noone would take that as a serious reason why feeding these people would be a problem.

They wouldnt need to help them beyond that though. Keeping them fed also preserves the balance as it is. In the sense that a status quo doesent change anyway.

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?

Personally, I would like to see some additional depth to the situation due to this interaction.

For one, there is more than one type of supply-food could be sufficient if the refugees are running out of medicine or niceties, or stuff like arrows and weapons. Also, if the druids/refugees were legitimately pressed enough that the druids had to actively help defend the grove, or if the ritual required a constant expenditure of spell slots to fuel, it is possible that there would be a choice between spells to make food and spells to protect the grove. It's easy to show this-at the start, when a tiefling is sniped, have a druid run up to him and cast cure wounds and save him after a moment of hesitation-then sadly inform Zevlor that this was his only free spell so he can't make food for the refugees today.

Vhaldez #716697 25/10/20 07:53 PM
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Of curse countries in our Medieval times had borders. They were fing kingdoms. Countries had borders since first countries were invented.
They may not have been as precisely defined and marked as modern ones but they sure existed and people sure did get pissed off about them and other dirty foreigners getting into places where they dont belong.

Thats not the problem here. The problem is that the reason why there is animosity towards refugee Tieflings - by Druids is never explained in a way that would make any sense in this setting and its lore. Especially in the situation where a third force is attacking everyone. This is not a case of Earth borders and politics and problems, modern ones or historic ones.

The whole sub plot is based only on vapid extremely superficial generalizations without any background or any specifics, and the same kind of blunt cheap generalizations are used in the trial. The player is never allowed to argue or ask or point out the most obvious issues about the whole deal.


Khaga idea is this: Once the refugees are gone, whichever way - she can cast the big ritual and seal the Grove, mkay?

Well... okay, bu that immediately raises several really obvious questions.

1. If the ritual will protect the grove... why doesnt she just do it and protect everyone?

2. If the refugees are creating any issue why that could not work...like maybe there isnt enough food for everyone, why are we never told anything about it and we cant even ask about it.

3. Obviously - a druid grove should not suffer from any food problems even with refugees around.

4. Why does anyone think that attacks are happening only because of refugees? Is that based on any info at all? Where the F did they get that idea?

5. Wouldn't Druids be extremely miffed about bands of Goblins killing everything and burning and destroying everything they can around them?

6. If Khaga is a Shadow Druid and if that isnt just used to show "she is evil" - then she should consider everyone enemies. Especially the Goblins.

7. If the Grove is sealed from the outside - doesnt that mean all the Druids would be trapped inside and unable to do anything about a Goblin army ravaging the whole area?

8. Do they want to stay sealed inside the Grove... forever?

9. Wouldnt they want to know more about this army thats attacking everyone?


... And on and on and on , these kinds of questions never stop because the whole situation setup is done so badly it cannot exist unless all these considerations are simply removed and not allowed to be considered.

And the trial is even worse. The player never even gets a chance to ask about any of these most basic and obvious considerations.

Last edited by Surface R; 25/10/20 07:56 PM.
Vhaldez #716710 25/10/20 08:04 PM
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Kahga's (supposed) problem with the Thieflings isent that they are sitting on the land that they are or are not using per se. As fas as I can tell anyway. (might need to replay it. Its been a few days) Its more so that theyre beeing dragged in their conflict and (apparently) are eating their food. We already adressed the 2nd point but the first has some merit to it. To a certain degree.

The group of Goblins are the ones who are investigating the crashed ship. Its highly likely that they would have investigated the grove regardless if the thieflings were manning the ramparts or not. Infact theyre doing the defending for the druids in this case. So in a a sense they are helping the druids instead of beeing a drain on their supplies. If some died those could have been druids who died. Kahga doesent examine the situation outside of the grove though. She stays in the inner circle and just bosses her fellow druids around without even taking a look at the actual situation. The Goblins would have already been inhabbiting that ruined temple for a while, so the Thieflings have nothing to do with them 'suddenly' appearing.

It seems to me that alot of ingame conversations are still missing because alot of things arent talked about. Either things arent brought up or they dont really go into details of things like how Kahga got into her position.

Vhaldez #716747 25/10/20 08:54 PM
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The Tieflings dont have anything specific to do with Goblins who are just following the Absolute orders of basically attacking everyone in the area.

I think some Goblins or maybe even Minthara mention something short about Tieflings, but it doesnt make sense they would be solely focused only on them.
It maybe that the writers just tried to create an excuse for their "refugees are a problem because Goblins attacks us because of them!!!" but it doesnt actually make any sense in the overall situation. Because obviously Goblins are attacking everyone they can and Absolute would not leave Druids in the Grove, just hugging trees all day.

Apparently the forces of Hell are interested into the whole deal, but other then they are playing with it all and are not direct allies of the Absolute its unclear exactly in what way they are interested.
And Tieflings are not really directly connected to inhabitants of Hells anyway. Just random people turned into devilish lookalikes and poor refugees. If there is anything else there we never got even a hint.

Vhaldez #717201 26/10/20 08:54 AM
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Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.

Further — the Goblins don’t even care about the Tieflings, Druids, or the Grove. They’re after the gang of Adventurers you help save/let die upon discovering the grove. They state they’re after those people — presumably for stealing, assaulting, or trespassing. Additionally, they’re interested in the Nautiloid. If you follow Sazza to speak with the Drow — they say as much, clearly not knowing those adventurers have left.

So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive). The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.


Marshmallow #717377 26/10/20 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.


What is all this nonsense about "the Viper must strike" then? Isn't the part of the grove where the Tieflings are also going to be covered in bramble? Moreover, why are the voicelines for the Tieflings that suggest you are acting on the druids' behalf when you murder them all?

Marshmallow #717423 26/10/20 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.


What do you mean "thats what the ritual is"? Expelling the Tieflings is a ritual, wut? She also wants you to kill Zevlor. She doesnt stright up wants you to kill all the refugees but doesnt mind it eaither.
And all for what reason?

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

Further — the Goblins don’t even care about the Tieflings, Druids, or the Grove. They’re after the gang of Adventurers you help save/let die upon discovering the grove. They state they’re after those people — presumably for stealing, assaulting, or trespassing.
They state several times they want to find the Grove, even Minthara sends you to specifically find it.
Ok, not because of Tieflings but they want to find the Grove and kill all the heretics.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive).

Why is that then not stated by any Druid?

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

None of that is explained in the game itself. Its only what you basically invented or inferred by yourself as explanation. There is no Druid who actually says "i feel being taken advantage of".

Marshmallow #717464 26/10/20 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive). The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

Divide the number of people in the camp by 10. Thats the number of LEVEL ONE spell slots needed to feed everyone. The druids sleep and they get those spell slots back. Goodberry has a sprig of missletoe tied to it for material componnents.

But evem then I find the idea that the druids dont have enough food to go around is laughable at best. Even assuming that they have run out of the material components for the spells, theyre druids. They are in touch with nature and alongside rangers who are in their preffered enviroment would know best how to easily find food in their inmediate enviroment. The 1 line simply doesent work once you put it under any kind of scrutiny.

I think its a missed opportunity as well. You cant aid the druids other then just outright removing the entire goblin camp for them. Why isent it an option to aid the druids with their problems? Find food for them somehow? Maybe they are out of missletoe for the goodberry spell and finding a bunch of that can help them their supposed food problem. Maybe theres a source of food nearby that you can offer to them instead? Maybe you find some sick of weak animals that can be easily hunted and you can point the druids in that direction so that they have enough for the time beeing.

As it stands its just a throw away line that doesent come across as genuine and seems more as an easy excuse to fool anyone who doesent think about it.

Surface R #717465 26/10/20 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R


Originally Posted by Marshmallow

The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

None of that is explained in the game itself. Its only what you basically invented or inferred by yourself as explanation. There is no Druid who actually says "i feel being taken advantage of".


This is a very important point. The druids are all fully on board with the bigotry and xenophobia on display with Kagha and even after the Tieflings are gone they make condescending remarks about good riddance. Apiskusis and Rath are the only tolerant druids left.

Vhaldez #717602 26/10/20 03:19 PM
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I think - cant be bothered to start a new game to check - that the attacks are attributed to Tieflings a few times in different conversations.

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.

There is also a river right there, just sayin... and one Druid bear lazily slapping fish out of it. All day.

Btw, the bears look awful. Like someone wanted to create cuddly funny looking bears but also make them angry at the same time. They looked like stuffed angry fat toys.


Surface R #717610 26/10/20 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.


We are afraid and Kagha has easy answers. We also do not ask questions.

Vhaldez #717715 26/10/20 04:57 PM
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I wish there was an option to remind Kahga of the tenants of their order - there is a book in the room behind her that is basically "3 easy steps to being a good druid" and one is to help those in need. Reading that should give additional dialogue options to both main druids in the sanctum. Maybe it can be used to out Kahga as a dark druid or it can be used to convince Rath that she is in the wrong and we'd help him take over. For being an evil person though, she is a little too one dimensional evil.

slothgodfather #717746 26/10/20 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by slothgodfather
I wish there was an option to remind Kahga of the tenants of their order - there is a book in the room behind her that is basically "3 easy steps to being a good druid" and one is to help those in need. Reading that should give additional dialogue options to both main druids in the sanctum. Maybe it can be used to out Kahga as a dark druid or it can be used to convince Rath that she is in the wrong and we'd help him take over. For being an evil person though, she is a little too one dimensional evil.


There is. In the initial trial scene, there's an option to debate her on the teachings of silvanus. It may be related to religion, elf, or ranger option, I cant recall which. But either way it seemed to lower the DC to get the tiefling kid free, and sets the groundwork for getting her to turn against the dark druids and assist you in killing them later. She then ends the ritual and submits to Halsin's judgment.

I personally like that its a little hard to get the kid out alive. It sets up a neat payoff where the mom poisons Khaga in the celebration or motivates you to hate her. I guess people are just used to their PC having mind control powers in tabletop. "Sure, I'm an evil druid and this brat stole our sacred artifact, but you DID ask nicely for her to be released and you do have a PC flag over your head, so one roll of 5+ is all it takes for me to go against my core character trait!".



Vhaldez #717755 26/10/20 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Surface R

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.


We are afraid and Kagha has easy answers. We also do not ask questions.


If only there was some sort of real world example of a xenophobic leader imprisoning kids, blaming refugees, wanting to build a wall, and having support from a significant portion of the population despite it going against supposed core principles of their country!

Last edited by Bossk_Hogg; 26/10/20 05:26 PM.
Bossk_Hogg #717767 26/10/20 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

If only there was some sort of real world example of a xenophobic leader imprisoning kids, blaming refugees, wanting to build a wall, and having support from a significant portion of the population despite it going against supposed core principles of their country!


Haha yes, imagine if there was such a thing. I sure would not want it in my fantasy roleplaying game which I play for escapism.
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg


There is. In the initial trial scene, there's an option to debate her on the teachings of silvanus. It may be related to religion, elf, or ranger option, I cant recall which. But either way it seemed to lower the DC to get the tiefling kid free, and sets the groundwork for getting her to turn against the dark druids and assist you in killing them later. She then ends the ritual and submits to Halsin's judgment.


While this is happening Kagha is over the top in her racist bigotry and seems to regret not killing Arabella if you talk her out of it. Then when she actually does kill her she has the "cringe" animation before going back to being racist. It makes no sense.

Vhaldez #717833 26/10/20 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=Bossk_Hogg]

While this is happening Kagha is over the top in her racist bigotry and seems to regret not killing Arabella if you talk her out of it. Then when she actually does kill her she has the "cringe" animation before going back to being racist. It makes no sense.


Because she's somewhat conflicted and not "all in" on evil yet. Its one thing to have hate and anger, and another thing to see a dead kid. After the deed is done, she's stuck to doubling down on the behavior or admit she was wrong.

Have you redeemed her yet? She thanks you for pulling her back from the brink and reflects on what she almost did.

Bossk_Hogg #717880 26/10/20 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
[quote=Vhaldez][quote=Bossk_Hogg]
Have you redeemed her yet? She thanks you for pulling her back from the brink and reflects on what she almost did.


I did, and Olodan and her cabal just up and disappear lol. As if they are only there so you have something to fight during the confrontation scene when you know Kagha is a shadow druid. In my first "kill Kagha" run on Zevlor's behalf I thunderwaved the three mice (who were throwing fire and acid at me...) and these three people popped out of thin air. Druids are not a good narrative vehicle for the story they want to tell with the Tieflings and I have a sneaking suspicion that once we get to Baldur's Gate they will just do this one all over again with the townsfolk there.

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Getting kid out alive being hard isnt a problem. All of it being done really stupidly is.

The real world similar problem you mention does not have a third party attacking US which would then be blamed on the refugees... although im quite sure someone would try it. Regardless of how bat shit insane and idiotic that would be.

Last edited by Surface R; 27/10/20 06:30 AM.
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