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Larian: we will motivate the player to try the evil walkthrough

Also Larian: they gave a good passage a lot more content and quests (evil players are not even shown a video from the developers), they gave more reasons to help tieflings, they did not even give the player a choice in favor of goblins (he could have been on the first visit to the grove of druids). We did everything so that helping Mintara was rather an Easter egg or an option for those who really liked this drow and they are specifically looking for an opportunity to make friends with her, despite the absurdity of this decision. Because the game doesn’t give any clues at all what it might be interesting for us, what is our benefit and what prospects. Larian didn't even let her join the party, and this is the only reason why anyone in general may be interested in the root of evil at the moment.

Also Larian: "74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems"

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Butthurt, I cannot understand their joy and enthusiasm about this.
This statistic is simply that there is a problem with the evil passage, and not because everyone decided to play as a paladin.
Even the choice between the Karlach and the "paladins of Tyr" made me help Karlach, because I cannot enter the service of the demons.

Who else, if not we, should loudly say that we don't like it? Otherwise, they can start doing more content further just for good, because "people choose this way and this deserves more attention". This would be a fatal mistake that could ruin the development of the game.
If the players do not choose the evil path, then work and make more content are needed EXACTLY FOR HIM. Larian's goal should be 50-50.

I hope that they will draw the right conclusions, because I really want to play on the path of evil, and so that it is deeper and more thoughtful. And I want other players to try it too.

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I guess half the issue is the evil route isn’t obvious.

The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner. I mean yeah the Druid leadership sucked and I would have happily slaughtered them, but you’re informed Halsin is not such an arse and can likely cure you. Should have know better after the Nettie incident.

Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!

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Originally Posted by Nyanko

Of course. You can either play as a drow (the easiest option) or use the tadpole when you meet the goblins at the camp and they will let you pass, thus won't be hostile. I've never needed Sazza to join Minthara personally.


That is good to know. Though if you're not a drow and are trying to not use the tadpole's powers it seems a bit limiting.

It'd be great if we learned more about the Absolute sooner. Or at least learned that our tadpoles weren't a death sentence so we might be more encouraged to explore wielding the tadpole's power more.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
I guess half the issue is the evil route isn’t obvious.

The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner. I mean yeah the Druid leadership sucked and I would have happily slaughtered them, but you’re informed Halsin is not such an arse and can likely cure you. Should have know better after the Nettie incident.

Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!

Yeah, that's exactly what we've been talking about here. we need incentives to go evil. I mean sex with a drow is an OP incentive, but it's more of a side effect than an actual reward.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Yeah I mean, after getting to the Drow she doesn’t exactly try to charm you with some big, oh it’s you... she just commands me around, so with a sigh I butcher her and the goblin leadership.

I mean call me shallow, but if she hinted out the blocks (or via narration that you sense an attraction) that sex was on the cards (even if it was to betray me later), then you know, I’m listening...

Come on dark side!! Where’s the cookies?!

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I enjoyed the evil path in a twisted way, the very last things involved with it got quite a strong emotional reaction out of me, I felt like an absolute monster.

But yeah, we need an incentive to actually choose the path of evil and villainy, much more incentive than there is right now

Last edited by Gathord; 28/10/20 12:18 AM.
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It’s about information.

Those who think out of the blocks, hey let’s deliberately try and choose the most bastard route possible through every conversation will likely get somewhere. It’s the neutrals I think you miss out on and hence the stats we are seeing.

Like I said, I usually play the hero type, but I’m certainly not adverse to a chaotic good approach with occasional murky flare ups and I think it’s those on the knife’s edge that need a nudge.

Why don’t the Absolute entice me to kill the selfish druids and recruit the tieflings? Naked Drow is icing on top! I mean the Druid leader allowed a Tiefling kid to die for petty theft, come on Absolute, push those buttons, make me doubt my idea of “good”! grin

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Originally Posted by Riandor
I guess half the issue is the evil route isn’t obvious.

The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner. I mean yeah the Druid leadership sucked and I would have happily slaughtered them, but you’re informed Halsin is not such an arse and can likely cure you. Should have know better after the Nettie incident.

Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!

This.

Only character I had that sided with Minthara was due to conditioning and that he finds the tadpole powers useful. There was no compelling reason for my other evil character to do this, he saved Halsin because he wants this thing out of his head now and he was the most logical choice. Didn't care about the Tieflings at all and killed Kagha and her friends right after killing Nettie (Tieflings lived). Not going to listen to some female Drow who has been corrupted, as far as he knows this Absolute is going to try and control him. Even someone playing a proper Lolth Sworn would possibly kill her for betrayal. There needs to be better dialogue or anything really that makes it more compelling to take the evil path.

I would be amused however if all paths are murky. I like hard decisions in my games no matter what "alignment" my character is.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Wish the absolute people actually tried to recruit you though. Isn't that the whole point of putting the tadpole in us? They could offer us a way to control it, tempt us with power.

Wait here ...
Absolute (as potential godess) do all that. When speak to you through your dreams.


Oh? I never got those dreams in any of my playthroughs. Maybe I didn't use the tadpole enough. My evil rogue that did use it never needed to long rest either lol

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Instead, they're all wanting to kill us

True, but that is not Absolute, that is her Cultists ...
While Absolute may be godes, or some entity that will try to become godess, and may want another followers, worshippers, etc.
Cultist are merely mortals, who want their power in this new system ... so they, on the contrary are affraid of competition, and therefore erase it as soon as possible.

At least that is how i understand it.


I suppose. At first, it seemed liked the Absolute was commanding them to kill us. There not too competitive in their cult, getting gnolls, goblins, and drow to work together, but not the players? I could see both ways, but in the current state it's still a difficult path to end up on.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance.

Well ... so far all we know is that Halsin can point you the direction where from is that "strange dark magic" that alternet tadpole ...
Meaning he will just show you the way to the Absolute, simmilar (if not just the same) as Minthara.


In a meta sense yes, but I meant for that in-character experience, Halsin was best bet. Being unfriendly, my character didn't meet the hag or have La'zael around. Goblin priestess was a bust, so Halsin was the only option at the time for that character

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Unless this is communicated to the player through gameplay I see no point in pretending there is a bigger picture we are just not seeing.

Well ... i havent seen any "big final reward" for being good either. :-/
So it seem only fair to presume the same for both paths.


Yes. Yes you have.
When I play the goodside I am pushed towards Halsin the druid who can help me remove this eye.

My other options are a Hag I could never trust.
And Gut who seemed to want poison me, I succeeded in my roll and she decided I should die. Evil Path FAIL!
Throughout the goblin plot I was viewed as an imposter. If my identity was discovered I would be dead... why should I risk it?
Sazza wanted to torture me after rescuing her and Minthara wanted me found and killed until I tricked myself in.

I see no longterm benefits in allying with the bad guys.
I would be killing the only healer willing to help me freely and putting myself in danger. I would be joining the enemy's ranks as an imposter that could be discovered and killed at any moment.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
The player knows ingame that the Absolute is a sham and its forces are presented as weak and newly emerging, no sudden massive increase in power on the Absolute's part is going to convince me otherwise.

A sham? Not at all ...
For one, Absolute is that magic entity that stoped your transformation ... even that aloe is proof enough of her being real. laugh
For two, players dont know ... other characters presume, or are quite sure about, but they dont "know" since they have no source. wink


For one we don't know the source of this power, it seems completely illithid in nature and its pretty much a ticking time bomb in our heads.
For two. I don't need to have a meta knowledge to make decisions in the game. I take what seems most adventagous based on my personality or the personality of my character.

And unless either I or my character are a suicidal psychotic masochist I doubt I would ever join with the bad guys.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Not to mention that even if what you say is true, I don't see why siding with Minthara is the same as siding with the Absolute as a whole.

Me neither ...
Im not sure if i ever even sugested such thing.

Presuming that Larian will be loyal to their permutation standards ...
We may be possibly do many things ... ally her, betray her and take her place, boss her, etc.


Hopefully. That and among other things are the only way I would join up with this... Absolute cult.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
If that were the case, surely the goblins would not betray you.

Goblins obey their misstress ... she comand, they follow ... they dont even think for themselves.
Therefore Goblins "technicaly" never betrayed you ... Minthara did(read as could), and they just followed orders.


Oh cares? Betray is betray. Why are you wasting our time making long posts and just fill them with redundant and unimportant information?


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Helping the Absolute feels like being its thankless errand boy right now

A bit, yes ...
In my country we say: "Who come late, harms himself."


Again. Please actually make an argument or say something constructive. Like what am I supposed to do with this? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
everyone else already on board with it is in an established position in the Absolute's forces and would kill a newcomer like you on a dime. Nobody tries to sell you the side of the Absolute other than the being itself through those dreams

Yup, totally ... so far we met 2 Absolute priests ... and conveniently she was both selfish beneficial b**ch, that was just planning to use us and betray us for her own benefit.


So you are agreeing that there Larian is not giving the players any reasonable argument to join the Absolute?


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Eddiar
75% to 25%... This confirms that this binary choice is the only one that matters and how poorly implemented it is.

I think not ...
It certainly confrims that through multiple permutation, wich can suit multiple different character you can get two outcomes by the end.
After all, even if you were able to take half Tieflings to prison, and then sell them as slaves ... wich was one of suggestions here, you will be still concidered as "helped goblins" in this statistics.


What is your native language? Because I think you are completely missing certain nuances that are being commented here that you are completely missing.
My point was the 75% to 25% are a symptom of a problem that the community update gave a bad interpretation of the data.

"75% picked the good path! You guys are so nice!" vs "75% picked the good path... why? Oh because Evil path sucks! Dont worry we will fix it."


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Wish the absolute people actually tried to recruit you though. Isn't that the whole point of putting the tadpole in us? They could offer us a way to control it, tempt us with power.

Wait here ...
Absolute (as potential godess) do all that. When speak to you through your dreams.


Lol. Oh christ its frustrating to talk with you.
You are interpreting things so wrongly, making false equivalencies and assumptions that sometimes I wonder if we saw the same thing.

Ok. Fine. We are getting recruited through a sexy dream?
Well lets forget every single minion she could muster has a "KILL ON SIGHT" order on my butt. But yeah... those sexy dreams!

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Instead, they're all wanting to kill us

True, but that is not Absolute, that is her Cultists ...
While Absolute may be godes, or some entity that will try to become godess, and may want another followers, worshippers, etc.
Cultist are merely mortals, who want their power in this new system ... so they, on the contrary are affraid of competition, and therefore erase it as soon as possibl.


At least that is how i understand it.


What you are doing here is called a headcanon. You have crafted an entire new story in your head and you think that is what's going on. Truth is we don't know.
The only thing we do know is that anyone working for the absolute is searching for us. And want to kill us.
This is not a coincidence.

Now whether this is true or not. It does not matter. I don't care for some last minute reveal to subvert my expectations.
I see what I see and I have NO incentive to join the bad guys in Act One.
And if I don't do it in Act One I doubt I can full explore Evil side in Act Two if it gets better because of all the future potential evil friends I could have brought along in Act 1.

And before you suggest I use this new information and replay the campaign as evil... I say NO.
The game should already give me the proper presentation so that I could make an INFORMED decision.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance.

Well ... so far all we know is that Halsin can point you the direction where from is that "strange dark magic" that alternet tadpole ...
Meaning he will just show you the way to the Absolute, simmilar (if not just the same) as Minthara.


Again with the meta knowledge speculation.
My friend. We are only discussing what can actually see and experience. You need to stop it with the headcanons and speculations.
It is incredibly frustrating reading such incredibly long posts when half of it is your own imagination and it never occurred in the game that we are providing feedback on.

I hope I wasn't too tough on you but its late and I am tired after reading through this mess.

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RagnarokCzD moment.

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We are getting to some serious posts here ... i doubt anyone will read it. laugh
Originally Posted by Abits
Can you give me a more general argument about why you think the evil route is anything more than a mmorpg quest with sex prize?

I think i give you more than one ... and i would repeat myself.
So ... try search my previous posts and read them ... im honestly too lazy to do that for you. laugh

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Also Larian: they gave a good passage a lot more content and quests

Can you be specific please?
Wich quests you block out with siding with goblins? Yes, killing the goblin leaders, ofcourse ... that is 1:1 ...

But if you screw any else its not about taking evil route, its just about being rush and consequences ...
I also didnt plunder Dror Ragzlin treasure room when i sided with them, and now i cant go there, unless i kill them all. laugh
That is nothing else than consequences of my own stupid decision to make main quest before side quests, for people that are included in main quest.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
they gave more reasons to help tieflings

1) It may seem like good thing to do ...
2) ... ?

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
We did everything so that helping Mintara was rather an Easter egg or an option for those who really liked this drow and they are specifically looking for an opportunity to make friends with her, despite the absurdity of this decision.

What is so absurd about this ...
Yes, she may seem cruel since she will throw the goblin to her spiders ... yet, you massacred whole pack of them attacking the town, so i dont see why pitty them now. O_o
Yes, she is kinda bossy around ... but leaders usualy are. laugh

Minthara have army ... Tieflings have ... i dunno, what does tiefling have, have promissed you some small reward, since they specificly tells you that they dont have much, but they will try to get something for your trouble?
Damn ... infiltrating enemy camp, killing it leaders and potentialy fight whole goblin army on the one site of scales ... and "little something for your trouble" on the other hand ... that seem quite absurd to me. laugh

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Because the game doesn’t give any clues at all what it might be interesting for us, what is our benefit and what prospects.

I start to feel like stuck gramophone record ...
Army ... cult ... godess that is allready saving our life, and probably have some plan for us, that curious traveler wants to reveal?

Damn, in the scene when Zevlor realized that you are siding with goblins, you can tell him this: "Its not personal, i need help and her godess its my best chance."
What more benefit you need?
Some druid dude, that was told you to "may be able to help" by dwarf who just few seconds ago was trying to kill you? I dont feel convinced here. :-/

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Larian didn't even let her join the party, and this is the only reason why anyone in general may be interested in the root of evil at the moment.

Yet. wink
But there are hints that is possible in future content.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
This statistic is simply that there is a problem with the evil passage

And this topic (funny enough) show us why ...
Bcs for most players the only motivation is greed ... if anyone reveals that there is some OP artefact in the end of evil path, those numbers will be otherwise with a snap of fingers. :P

Originally Posted by Riandor
The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

Do they tho? (funny sentence laugh )
You obviously can try your luck with Halsin ... but I just can't figure out what you think he's going to have a better chance of helping you than anyone else.

I mean except Volo, and maybe Gut ofcourse ... those are just for fun i presume.
Hag and Raphael i would presume will have simmilar chances, compared to Halsin, but with cost so great, so you will regret it anyway.
But Minthara ... she worship the godess that allready messing with your tadpole, making it dormant ... so logicaly, she can control it.

Call me sceptic, but i would say that "clearest path towards geting rid of tadpole" offers Githyanki ...
For one, they are experienced with this problem, unlike druids ... for two, you do have one of them in your group who can negotiate that procedure for you ... and for three, its their holy mission to exterminate Mind Flayers, so there is pretty low chance they will deny you this help.
(Ofc. i expect them to just find out that their procedure dont work on you, since your tadpole was alterned with that dark magic, and you will still need to go to moonrise towers and confront the Absolute ... but that is another story.)

So ... in what universe some dude from group that allready tryed (or wanted to try, depends on your dicerolls) to kill you since you are infected and therefore dangerous ... is your better chance then experts with decades of experience in this particular field ... or godess, that is allready working with it at the moment? laugh

Originally Posted by Riandor
If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner.

But they do ...
You have those dreams talking with the Absolute ... and if you dont, it means only one thing, you rushed your main quest and didnt use tadpole enough.

Ofc. some can say that is proof of poor design, since you can side with goblins and praise the Absolute before you even know about the Absolute anything closer ...
Or it simply shows that this character (aka player w/e) do some really weird decisions. laugh

There certainly are some situations that developers obviously expected different attitude.
Good example is Gale, wich if you play your cards bad enough, can thank you for helping him with his condition, and provide him magical artefact to consume ... and just few conversations after he is willing to tell you about his condition and asking about that artefact. laugh

But this one i think is on you. :-/
You just rushed to main plot, and then complained that there is not enough clues ... wich are everywhere around. :-/

Originally Posted by Riandor
Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

They do ... you just need to talk to them.
Especialy Shadowheart was reminding me some options with every conversation, even those that allready passed. laugh
(She warned me to be carefull when making deal with that hag, even when that hag was allready dead.)

Originally Posted by Riandor
So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!

There is certainly space for improvements ... no argues from me ...
But where isnt? :P

Originally Posted by Zarna
Only character I had that sided with Minthara was due to conditioning and that he finds the tadpole powers useful. There was no compelling reason for my other evil character to do this, he saved Halsin because he wants this thing out of his head now and he was the most logical choice.

Precisely ... isnt it great how many outcomes we can get with differently motivated characters? ^_^
I just want to point out that Halsin can seem like "so far released" most logical choice. laugh

Originally Posted by HustleCat
Oh? I never got those dreams in any of my playthroughs. Maybe I didn't use the tadpole enough. My evil rogue that did use it never needed to long rest either lol

That would be it. smile

Originally Posted by HustleCat
I suppose. At first, it seemed liked the Absolute was commanding them to kill us. There not too competitive in their cult, getting gnolls, goblins, and drow to work together, but not the players? I could see both ways, but in the current state it's still a difficult path to end up on.

Exactly ... its weird that absolute wants to connect everyone but player ... and that is the logical reason why i think its not her agenda, but priests that are hungry for power and just getting rid of potential competition.

Originally Posted by HustleCat
In a meta sense yes, but I meant for that in-character experience, Halsin was best bet. Being unfriendly, my character didn't meet the hag or have La'zael around. Goblin priestess was a bust, so Halsin was the only option at the time for that character

Well ... ofc. if you exclude all other options, Halsin may seem like your best one, since you allready declined alternatives. laugh
Right now we allready know that all paths leads to Moonrise Towers ... all that matters now is who will help you get there, or if anyone. laugh

My "evil character" on the other hand considered Minthara her best option, since druids allready tried to kill her, hag and cambion were not thrustworthy, same as the goblin isnt ... and only idiot will search help in hands of Volo. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Yes. Yes you have.
When I play the goodside I am pushed towards Halsin the druid who can help me remove this eye.

No i havent. O_o
Halsin is just one of like seven options (some of them most stupid i admit that) ... the best one not yet included ingame ...

You are pushed to Halsin by druids ...
Bcs then you will save their leader ... it might aswell be just manipulate. laugh
And even if they were honest (and we know now that they kinda arent manipulate you) they may still see their way as the best one, just bcs its their way.
Vollo wil also ensure you that he totally know what he is doing ... same as Hag, she litteraly multiple times repeats that she did this countless times ... Lae'zel will with every conversation reminds you that her people knows the only way and noone else have slightest idea ... etc.

See? I dont think Halsin is your "best" option in general ... he is just option, nothing more ... and he may seem to be best, since you are mostly talking with his people. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And Gut who seemed to want poison me, I succeeded in my roll and she decided I should die. Evil Path FAIL!

I would not call this fail ... more like evil path alterned. smile
Even the most evil character can kill the goblins, and therefore help Tieflings simply by accident, wich is precisely what happened here. smile

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Throughout the goblin plot I was viewed as an imposter. If my identity was discovered I would be dead... why should I risk it?

That is funny question ...
And why should you risk go kill all Goblin leaders? laugh Isnt that like hundert times more risky?

If you try to infiltrate goblins ... there is some potential risk being exposed, and then you will need to fight for you life ... that is certainly true.
But if you decide to play good guy, you are attacking goblins, so this exact potential risk become certainity. laugh

So even for carefull characters, its safer route. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Sazza wanted to torture me after rescuing her and Minthara wanted me found and killed until I tricked myself in.

That she did ... obviously she is Chaotic evil character ... Minthara saved you from her, and you did get the opourtunity to revenge.

I know i know, she saved you only to use you, and wanted kill you later aggain.
(And honestly even if you diceroll from all this to being friendly with her, there is litteraly no way to tell if she dont try it aggain. laugh )

But is that so big deal?
Astarion tryed to kill you just the same the second you met him.
Shadowheart threated you aswell, especialy if you are Githyanki.
Lae'zel comanded you and uses you to her own goals, just like Minthara.
Halsin is willing to help you, only after you do some killing for him ... no matter you just helped save his life. laugh
And Zevlor is still demanding another help, and another help, and another help. laugh

In conlusion, everyone just want something from you ... everyone is using you to their own goals, and everyone else is going through it. :P
I cant help the feeling that you guys are a little Drowophobic. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
I see no longterm benefits in allying with the bad guys.
I would be killing the only healer willing to help me freely and putting myself in danger. I would be joining the enemy's ranks as an imposter that could be discovered and killed at any moment.

That is the thing ... he is not willing to help you freely, nor you are getting in any bigger danger than you will in any other path. laugh
Its a war ... there is no black and white ... just two sides fighting each other, and you simly needs to pick one. wink

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Betray is betray. Why are you wasting our time making long posts and just fill them with redundant and unimportant information?

Only Sith sees in absolute ...
Why ... to make my point obviously, why everyone else ever did? laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
So you are agreeing that there Larian is not giving the players any reasonable argument to join the Absolute?

Not exactly ...

I say that Larian's work is give players opourtunity to make any decision they want ...
And its players work to find motivation for his character to choose it.

Its litteraly like playing tabletop DnD ... you can spend hours preparing major plot that will blow everyones mind ... then your players will stuck for ten sessions in a row in town talking to some irelevant minor character and helping him.
Its not DM's work to force players to do what he want them to do ... that leads to scripted world and predefined story, and often is clasified as boring ... its his job to be prepared for it, when players decided to follow the right route, and provide enough fun while they dont.
And its up to them to try find that right route ... that is what is fun in theese things. smile

So i gues no ... if i have to choose only one option, im not agreeing.
At least not at 100%.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
What is your native language? Because I think you are completely missing certain nuances that are being commented here that you are completely missing.
My point was the 75% to 25% are a symptom of a problem that the community update gave a bad interpretation of the data.

"75% picked the good path! You guys are so nice!" vs "75% picked the good path... why? Oh because Evil path sucks! Dont worry we will fix it."

Czech ... its even written in my nick. laugh
But no worries, i dint expect you to notice. smile Most people in the world outisde the Europe dont even know we exists ... i mean they did in the past, around 2000 we had quite good results in sport, there was some gold medals by that time and i gues we were known mainly trough hockey ... but since then its not that bright. laugh

Maybe i am ... aswell as i may not be to deliver all nuances i wanted to to you, since my english is all autodidacted. laugh

This certainly is one of ways to see it ...
But if you will give it the work, and search some statistics you will find you that most people in Videogames are following the good path.
Its never 50:50 ... usualy it moves between 60-70% for good choices. wink Some examples: here, here, here, here, and here. smile
So on the contrary, this statistic dont show us that evil path is anyhow bad ... it shows us that players are acting exactly as they usualy do, wich kidna prooves that its witen accurately. laugh

That is the problem with statistic i have my whole life (I was educated in this field) ...
People can interpet numbers differently without required context. wink

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Lol. Oh christ its frustrating to talk with you.
You are interpreting things so wrongly, making false equivalencies and assumptions that sometimes I wonder if we saw the same thing.

Did you ever heared adage "100 people, 100 tastes" ?
I just see things differently ... its not right or wrong, i never try to teach you how you are suppose to see anything, just making clear how i see them. wink

Interesting that i dont find the exatly same conversation frustrating at all ...
May it have something to do with the fact i dont try to convince you to anything? smile Think about it.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Ok. Fine. We are getting recruited through a sexy dream?
Well lets forget every single minion she could muster has a "KILL ON SIGHT" order on my butt. But yeah... those sexy dreams!

You need to read, or listen what she is telling you, not just stare at her boobs. laugh

Also you seem to forgeting that all those minions are independent characters, that was so far their whole life killing everythin "on sight" ... its not like in WoW where you help poor begger giving him a coin, and some NPC in other side of word stop being hostile towards you bcs it have the same faction and you just get that one point in reputation that makes them friendly. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Instead, they're all wanting to kill us

True, but that is not Absolute, that is her Cultists ...
While Absolute may be godes, or some entity that will try to become godess, and may want another followers, worshippers, etc.
Cultist are merely mortals, who want their power in this new system ... so they, on the contrary are affraid of competition, and therefore erase it as soon as possibl.

At least that is how i understand it.

What you are doing here is called a headcanon. You have crafted an entire new story in your head and you think that is what's going on. Truth is we don't know.

Well i would call it more like assumption, or speculation ... the effect is still the same, it just dont sounds so agressive.
True, we dont know, that is why we speculate ...

Originally Posted by Eddiar
The only thing we do know is that anyone working for the absolute is searching for us. And want to kill us.
This is not a coincidence.

And that is your specualtion ...
Not so different from mine, in matter of validity, since you also "dont know" ... you just presume different connections than me. smile

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Now whether this is true or not. It does not matter. I don't care for some last minute reveal to subvert my expectations.
I see what I see and I have NO incentive to join the bad guys in Act One.

Then just dont ... no harm made, everyone happy ...
I dont see any problem here. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And if I don't do it in Act One I doubt I can full explore Evil side in Act Two if it gets better because of all the future potential evil friends I could have brought along in Act 1.

Another speculation ...
For someone who criticize others for make them, you are making quite a lot. O_o

I for one speculate that if you dont join "Act 1 Evil side" whatever that is, you will certainly have different experience in Act 2 ... that much i believe we can agree on.
But i dont think that we can even talk about some "full explore" or "partial explore" ... world is changing based on your actions, so whatewer you do, you have potential to explore whole world, that was changed by your own decisions.
Nor we can talk here about some restrictions you created with choosing that or this ... that is just consequences.

So ... conclusion? You allways get "full explore" ... it just change every time you made different decision anywhere on your journey ...
Sure you will not get the same outcome if you (or your dicerolls will) choose different path, but that much i would asume.
That is mark of quality, not and error.

The same as if you take "good path" ... what is "good path" anyway ...
Its sidint with Druids, and drive Tieflings out?
Or is it siding with Tieflings and exterminate Druids when you fail your persuation diceroll?
Or is it dont care about their dispute, and just go save Halsin and kill goblins?

Every permutation brings different outcome for Act 2 ...
I just cant see how this can be seen as bad thing.
If you just choose not to explore one permutation, you will not see it ... that much is certainly true, but that is just matter of causality.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And before you suggest I use this new information and replay the campaign as evil... I say NO.

I would never suggest that ... it's in direct conflict with everything I've been defending so far. :-/
And the fact that you asume that i would ... makes me quite certain that you didnt understand single word i have told you so far. frown
My english must be even worse then i think. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
The game should already give me the proper presentation so that I could make an INFORMED decision.

Partialy disagree ...
This is entirely and certainly true in some cases ... as are spells, talents, skill points, proficiencies, etc. ...
But never story!

In story your character have some information that was provided to him ... and based on that he either choose, or have to find out other (perception checks, reaing the red maked journals, or scrolls on table, etc. etc.) ofc. asuming he didnt allready, then he have everything that was provided to him, and he need to choose ...
No character ever in any good written story will give you "proper presentation to make informed decision" ... ever!
On the contrary, in best stories your decision are made at halftruths, and unspoken details that you either find out (aka. speculate ... rightly ofc.) in time, or just will show themselves later ... usualy to screw you up.
And that is the fun in it ...

I cant imagine how do you want to create "proper presentation to make informed decision" in Minthara case, please create me and example from this case so i understand you better ... bcs "Hey you, join me in raid for Druid groove ... i will not help you in any way, nor give you anything as reward except my body, nor will even thank you for your work ... oh and next morning i will cut your head off ... so what do you say, do we have deal?" seem just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance.

Well ... so far all we know is that Halsin can point you the direction where from is that "strange dark magic" that alternet tadpole ...
Meaning he will just show you the way to the Absolute, simmilar (if not just the same) as Minthara.


Again with the meta knowledge speculation.

That post was not speculation based on meta knowledge ... it was comparison of results on the end of two stories ...
Meaning in the time where both your good, and bad characters allready known the outcome since they did it. smile

Maybe it was not clear enough, that much i admit.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
It is incredibly frustrating reading such incredibly long posts when half of it is your own imagination and it never occurred in the game that we are providing feedback on.

I hope I wasn't too tough on you but its late and I am tired after reading through this mess.

You tell me ... you react only to my posts, and possibly in your language ... i react to 3-5 another people ... it is certainly exhausting. laugh laugh laugh
And yes, you are ... a bit ... sometimes ... but no hard feelings from me. smile
Its just a debate, if i dont want to be included in it, i would not. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Ok that all got a little long, but on one of my points the whole Absolute tell you in your dreams... Not using the Tadpole enough.
Again, the game screams at you from moment one Tadpole bad, Ceramorphosis bad, don't use it.

It's only after Halsin reveals that there is a power supressing the effects that I realised maybe I needn't worry quite so much. So yes, I likely rushed the main quest, and yes I blocked out the dreams as much as I could, because when Devils and and Gods offer up murky promises, I trust none of them. So I disagree with you that it's all obvious. Maybe I don't chat to my companions enough on the subject or or or, but frankly if I am in camp, they should talk to me, or it should be discussed a s a grou woth conflicting ideas bouncing back and forth. IT's too clunky and whilst the druid option isn't ideal, especially after Nettie, it still ususally ends up being the more obvious choice. I waltzed into the Goblin camp and even if you persuade your way in, I didn't want to be branded by the Goblin wench so bang, fight 1. If Minthara is looking for us, I would expect the Goblin leadership to be more forward about making sure we see her, hear her side and then yeah, sex vs murderhobo is up to me. Decisions!

Maybe my mind was already too made up, I dunno, playing "evil" doesn't come naturally to me anyway, but like I said, if I edge towards neutral there should be more murky decisions to be made that blur the lines. I'll have another playthrough soon, but I do maintain that if you want more people to be enticed about the so called "evil" route, you need to get the message over to the players more readily to embrace the modified tadpole or get them in front of the Absolute sooner. If it's via the dream then that dream needs to sell me that it isn't the Tadpole speaking a lot better than it currently does, whether via the person in the dream, or my companions doubting.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah I mean, after getting to the Drow she doesn’t exactly try to charm you with some big, oh it’s you... she just commands me around, so with a sigh I butcher her and the goblin leadership.

I mean call me shallow, but if she hinted out the blocks (or via narration that you sense an attraction) that sex was on the cards (even if it was to betray me later), then you know, I’m listening...

Come on dark side!! Where’s the cookies?!


This is very much pin-pointing it for me too. Seeing how I played a drow female I started off by attacking her for her insolence, and then attacked her twice more because of abandoning Lolth. After reloading for a third time I forced myself to play the submissive part in order to progress the "evil" storyline. Same process all over again during the party (at least 2-3 reloads).

I have the same general issue with Lae'zel. She has plenty of demands that I can't accomodate while also making decisions for the party. Thus she end up hating me on every playthrough for not showing weakness and acting all submissive around her. I would have to force myself out of character to make a romance/friendship work with her, form what I've seen so far.

On a side-note: I launched PoE2 for the first time yesterday and played through the short prologue.
I refused to do Berath's bidding, and confirmed my decision. I got a few lines of text and game over, credits rolling.
It had me laughing AND it was alright, because apparently I didn't have a choice in the matter. The case of BG3's evil route is most definitely a choice, so unless I'm forced to take that route I need some incentive to do so.

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RagnarokCzD

Although I'm genuinely interested in your point of view the way you answer is really confusing for me. Hence I'll write ING general what I think the problem with the evil path and hope you'll indulge me and provide comment.
The evil path is nothing. You go to the goblin camp (and with the way the game works usually you already have the quest to kill the goblins by that point after establishing them as threat and providing you with possible rewards), and it's actually a cool place with a lot of nice side activities and very short, unrelated and nice short stories (the goblin kids, the chicken chasing, Volo, the dick goblin who asks you to lick his boots). But there is nothing else. Each goblin "leader" has a totally different side quest for you, each of them feels as though it exists in a vacuum, and most of them don't really progress the main story. The only one that do is Minthara's quest, and it is literally "go kill the people in the grove because eeeevil". What is compelling about that? Why should even a super cartoonishly evil character would do it? Why create all those leaders if they have no part in the story?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Evil route in Baldur's Gate 3:
Do evil things for sake of evil.
Who is doing evil things that don't give him anything? Is there a reason for him to do evil things?

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Originally Posted by Riandor
I guess half the issue is the evil route isn’t obvious.

The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner. I mean yeah the Druid leadership sucked and I would have happily slaughtered them, but you’re informed Halsin is not such an arse and can likely cure you. Should have know better after the Nettie incident.

Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!


This is super on spot

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Ok that all got a little long, but on one of my points the whole Absolute tell you in your dreams... Not using the Tadpole enough.
Again, the game screams at you from moment one Tadpole bad, Ceramorphosis bad, don't use it.

I think the angle they want you to go for is a One Ring type of deal where everyone keeps telling you its power should not be used, but you let yourself get corrupted by it anyway.
Originally Posted by Abits
The evil path is nothing. You go to the goblin camp (and with the way the game works usually you already have the quest to kill the goblins by that point after establishing them as threat and providing you with possible rewards), and it's actually a cool place with a lot of nice side activities and very short, unrelated and nice short stories (the goblin kids, the chicken chasing, Volo, the dick goblin who asks you to lick his boots). But there is nothing else. Each goblin "leader" has a totally different side quest for you, each of them feels as though it exists in a vacuum, and most of them don't really progress the main story. The only one that do is Minthara's quest, and it is literally "go kill the people in the grove because eeeevil". What is compelling about that? Why should even a super cartoonishly evil character would do it? Why create all those leaders if they have no part in the story?

To top it all off, at the end all of these little side stories lead to a big 'ole nothing when the goblins betray you. There exists a very likely outcome that you come out of the "evil" path with less than when you washed up on the beach. The game points you in the direction of Halsin at every turn and the fake options like Ethel / Nettie / Gut only make this pointing more obvious. Minthara doesn't even have a cure for you, just a potential way to get to Moonrise. One that you could easily miss or decide not to use, and then what do you have.

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Abits

Yes, you get there either with quest to kill goblins, with promissed rewards wich you were warn about it "will not be much".
Or, you simply get there without the quest, since you dont need to care about Tieflings, nor Druids ... but even then you do allready know that they present potential threat for groove.

True ... there is not much in goblin camp ...
Unless you count temple inside, that will pretty much double it.
Still it may not seem like much, but since goblins just infest abandonned places, than build anything own ... it seem understandable to me.
On the other hand, in groove isnt so much more ... i mean there probably is more things, but not like double, or triple. :-/

Im not sure what do you mean with that vacuum ... like they all are selfish? Ofc they are, they are goblins. laugh

Well ... if main story is geting rid of tadpole, there really are just Minthara, and Gut ... aggain, simmilar to groove, where is only Halsin(potentialy) and Nettie.

IMHO Minthara is more like "go kill the people in the grove, because that is the only possible reason you are here" ... all she know about you is the fact that you are true soul, and one can understand that someone like her would presume that you two will not talk, if you were there to kill her ...
Also i was there so far talking to her only with Sazza ... Sazza is talking about posibility of attack, and you have no objection, so that is another reason to presume you are there to join the attack.

Why create leaders ... who do you mean?
Goblin leaders that Halsin want you to kill? Probably bcs quest "go and kill five completely random goblin" will be quite stupid. laugh
Or do you mean Zevlor, Halsin, and Kagha? ... I gues for same reason as Minthara, Dror Ragzlin, and Gut.
I gues if you dont specificly do what are you specificly told not to do ... at last one of leaders from each side should be alive, more like 2. And i gues every one of them will have some story in future, wich will depend on wich one of them survived.

And second question ... you ask why would any character join Minthara.
I hope reasons for mine chaotic evil Drow will surfice:
1) Its a Drow, i know that this race isnt known for some racial loayality, but still my character is closer to her, than some surfacedwellers.
2) Why not? My character dont care about litteraly anyone in that groove, and raid with goblin army sounds like fun.
3) Multiple persons from groove did repeatly insult my character for being a Drow ... it may not seem like much, but those simple reveges warms her cold heart.
4) Minthara is servant of the Absolute, wich as it seems control mine tadpole ... so my chances with someone who allready have control over my parasite seem biger, than with someone who may study some parasite for some limited time.
5) There is Cult that worships Absolute, wich potentialy promises power.
6) Absolute promises better life for Goblins, Hopgoblins, Ogres, Duegars, Drow, etc. ... ofc. my character probably see "better life" differently than that goblin, that tells her about it, but that is nothing she will care about.
7) Every treasure, every valuable, and every artefact i found in groove will be mine.
8) Bcs screw druids, that is why. :P laugh
9) And finaly and maybe most important ... its evil. >:]

Hope this form of answer will be more "readable" for you, dont get used to it ... i dont do that often, i writen it all as usualy, and then just deleted your quotes, i simply cant write anyhow else, since then i loose myself in it. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 28/10/20 06:54 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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My evil playthrough is happening with a Drow Warlock.

I was prepared to do evil things to get rid of the tadpole. I would've wiped out an entire good or neutral faction to get it done. They set up the perfect motivation to do evil things, and then.............. the game completely ignores this! So far anyway, but it's not looking very interesting.

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