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Only thing about the evil route I disliked was having to wait for the AI to have the goblins take their turns on the tiefs in the cave...which took ages-would have liked an auto-tactic mode to throw on for that while I watched something in another tab, it was kinda tedious.

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Thinking about it, is there any way to actually portray a path that involves having a parasite in your brain as a sane path, evil or otherwise? I feel like unless they have it come out that the Absolute is either a new deity or an established one playing a game that they really can't make that path all that appealing. The Mind Flayers aren't exactly an inclusive people so it's unlikely that keeping the tadpole would ever work out well for you. People make pacts with demons and ancient ones sure but typically those people have an overriding lust for power, are insane/damaged; or believe that they're smart and/or cunning enough to break the deal, keep the power and not get obliterated in the process. The tadpole doesn't offer that kind of an opportunity since once its gone so are the powers and said powers are tied to the Mind Flayers which would be a constant issue. Topping it off the tadpoles powers are just more or less hive mind connections. While an evil path doesn't have to have immediate gains, there needs to be some solid promise of future power and with the cult all you really get promised is a knife to the back or turning into a Mind Flayer at some inevitable point.

Regarding the ai being slow during big fights, that can be really annoying. It was funny watching Kagha shockwave her own druids repeatedly during that battle though, and they were healing her.

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The dead illithid in the goblin castle says its a circle of elder illithid in a circle in absolute unity, absolute power. Theres a few other clues, namely the worms in everyones brains, but its either a great smoke and mirrors or its a group of illithid working, potentially without an elder brain, but using what is most likely a netherse artifact (hag when she tries to get rid of your worm says its wrapped in netherese magic and its far beyond her power - and her power is great) to shield the slugs until the mass invasion (shown by dead illithid with infinite nautilus popping out of deep space for an attack).


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Right, wasn't 100% on remembering that part. It would have to be some well done smoke and mirrors at this point involving a god or something manipulating the Mind Flayers for their own goals though I can't see it being the case. More than likely this means the main story path is getting rid of the parasite and potentially stopping an apocalyptic invasion. If that's the case maybe they're aiming for evil and good choices to be less linear paths and more divided into the individual quests? Taking that into account I imagine there was never an idea for characters to stick with the cult and their intention was more use it to figure out what is going on and how to get rid of the tadpole. Which is certainly the darker path, killing the teiflings and druids to accomplish it, but its definitely an out of the way choice with little incentive or reasoning. I could also speculate a whole bunch of ideas on where the story goes and what could be the "evil" path but from what we've been given so far, and as has been covered, you're really not incentivized to follow it. Hell, everything you learn through the story is that it's not good for your health, don't use the tadpole and get that sucker out quickly, stasis or no stasis. Safer to work with any amenable people to get rid of the tadpole and more than likely stop any Mind Flayer plot.

On the whole If their evil path is just a whole lot of slaughter the innocence for the lols I imagine I wont be choosing it, though I have done a run through of it. That's something I'd do in Fable because I was bored or wanted to purchase some more houses. Another part to think about is the fact that so far most of the evil characters are enslaved by the tadpoles and don't even know it which makes it more a priority to either kill them or get the tadpole out of their heads rather than aiding them in accomplishing the Absolutes plans. The more I think about this the wilder, and not in a good way, the evil path becomes.

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Yeah I had a thread called minthara and the nature of evil that went over this and someone used the word "psychotic" for evil path. Pretty spot on.

Random note on the plot too is of you read the notes on the table where you first met kagha and read the harper notes from the sea cove below astarion meeting spot, you combine the absolute illithid ring with a rogue selunite sect that has apparently been involved and helping the shadow druids sicken the land. The good druids tried to cleanse the trees and the darkness leaps back at them when it's attacked.

The moonrise towers seem to have an absolute crap storm around them. You, knowing none of this, want to get to a huge city and get cured. The only thing is after doing tons of good stuff you'd get enough info to know that moonrise probably has more answers than BG.

if you did evil stuff, you wouldn't know, and would want to go to bg. Now that you are good, and know the details, you could decide to swap sides and use the power - but think of how strong the allure of evil & absolute would have to be. Plus you're sticking it in a hornets nest by being down with illithid, shadow druid, and rogue selune. I get the feeling the dark justiciars of the underdark aren't not related to this.

Why, God why, would even an evil person who lived this stuff, rationally make the choice that this is your best bet to survive in the long term

Wrote that on my phone, probably tons of errors


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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No not at all op but then i never do enjoy anything evil.. To be fair this isn't evil imo its just rude and antagonistic.. Evil people can be just as pleasant as good people before you get to know them..

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Originally Posted by DanteYoda
No not at all op but then i never do enjoy anything evil.. To be fair this isn't evil imo its just rude and antagonistic.. Evil people can be just as pleasant as good people before you get to know them..



Some of the choices are definitely evil, I'd say that raiding the Grove is.
But yeah a lot of people are calling characters like Lae'Zel evil and I wouldn't really say that.
She's just a jerk xD...

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Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by DanteYoda
No not at all op but then i never do enjoy anything evil.. To be fair this isn't evil imo its just rude and antagonistic.. Evil people can be just as pleasant as good people before you get to know them..



Some of the choices are definitely evil, I'd say that raiding the Grove is.
But yeah a lot of people are calling characters like Lae'Zel evil and I wouldn't really say that.
She's just a jerk xD...

I feel they all are jerks tbh.. the companions, the tiefs, the druids, the goblins, the animals you speak to.. pretty much every single person you meet is an ahole right from the start.. except maybe the hag.. It just becomes an echo chamber of hate and i as a customer tune out.. Then the game loses me.

Pretty much i meet a new character, "spouts hate at me".. ok not interested in interacting with you anymore.. and this for me continues the whole game so far. Even damn squirrels were hateful.

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Originally Posted by DanteYoda
Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by DanteYoda
No not at all op but then i never do enjoy anything evil.. To be fair this isn't evil imo its just rude and antagonistic.. Evil people can be just as pleasant as good people before you get to know them..



Some of the choices are definitely evil, I'd say that raiding the Grove is.
But yeah a lot of people are calling characters like Lae'Zel evil and I wouldn't really say that.
She's just a jerk xD...

I feel they all are jerks tbh.. the companions, the tiefs, the druids, the goblins, the animals you speak to.. pretty much every single person you meet is an ahole right from the start.. except maybe the hag.. It just becomes an echo chamber of hate and i as a customer tune out.. Then the game loses me.

Pretty much i meet a new character, "spouts hate at me".. ok not interested in interacting with you anymore.. and this for me continues the whole game so far. Even damn squirrels were hateful.


Gale, Zevlor and Wyll aren't.
I forgot the name of the black Druid in the Grove who has an argument with Kagha but he was cool too and I found the Tieflings to be too.
I didn't find Shadowheart to be hateful towards me either, only when I pushed too much and tried to dig in her past.

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My problem with the evil option in most games is that it usually requires you to be a mindless sociopath.

Like in The Old Republic, I watched Jesse Cox play a Sith Inquistor who was a Darksider..........the character just came across as a Psychopath who did evil for the lulz.
Whereas if you rolled a Lightside Sith, the story was actually pretty damn interesting (That's what I did, characters both Imperial and Republic were so confused by the character, it was a riot and if you play that game and haven't rolled a Light Side Imperial, you're missing out.).
Admittedly Darksiders on the Rebublic (And to a degree, the non Force Using Imperials.) were a bit more interesting, but my point is that Playing a Darksider was just playing a Psychopath who did what they did for the lulz instead of for any practical or pragmatic reason.

I find it difficult to roll such a character, because I then go "Wait, why would you do that, there is no benefit to doing that." in more than one instance.

Jesse Cox even went in at least one instance in said Playthrough "Wait, That seems like a dumb thing to do, I know I'm playing Dark Side, but come on.".

So what I'm saying is, make Evil Choices that aren't pants on head stupid/For the Lulz Evil.

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Originally Posted by DanteYoda
the tiefs

What thiefs?
(I almost cant believe that there is still something im missing. O_o)

Originally Posted by Kou The Mad
My problem with the evil option in most games is that it usually requires you to be a mindless sociopath.

Nope ... they dont. laugh
But people usualy do ... bcs they dont see over "darkside metter".

Usualy you see people work like this: "Oh this is Darkside choice, i play Darkside character, therefore i should choose this."
You wouldn't believe how often, when a developer adds dark and light side indicators to a text, people don't even read the options, and just go with indicator.
(Personaly i would love to add few traps in conversations ... Darkside option: Commite a suicide. ... Just for the fun of those who dont read. laugh )

Its totaly usual style of play, and totally possible style of play ...
But no, its not right, and once aggain no, you totally should not do that ...
When you wish to play psychopat character who is cruel and dont miss any chance to harm someone ... you have that option ...
When you wish to play cold and calculative bastard, who allways do what most benefits him ... you have that option ...
When you wish to play neutral bastard, who just dont care about anyone and anything and dont wanna be involved in anything ... well, this one is the real problem, but sometimes you can too laugh
And when you wish to play goldstar who will help anyone anywhere and anytime no matter the cost ... you have that option ...

And you are suppose to read those options and choose wich one suits your character the best ... and that is right way to roleplay. :3

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 29/10/20 09:02 AM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by DanteYoda
the tiefs

What thiefs?
(I almost cant believe that there is still something im missing. O_o)


He means tief-lings. The plural of thief is thieves.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Kou The Mad
My problem with the evil option in most games is that it usually requires you to be a mindless sociopath.

Nope ... they dont. laugh
But people usualy do ... bcs they dont see over "darkside metter".

Usualy you see people work like this: "Oh this is Darkside choice, i play Darkside character, therefore i should choose this."
You wouldn't believe how often, when a developer adds dark and light side indicators to a text, people don't even read the options, and just go with indicator.
(Personaly i would love to add few traps in conversations ... Darkside option: Commite a suicide. ... Just for the fun of those who dont read. laugh )

Its totaly usual style of play, and totally possible style of play ...
But no, its not right, and once aggain no, you totally should not do that ...
When you wish to play psychopat character who is cruel and dont miss any chance to harm someone ... you have that option ...
When you wish to play cold and calculative bastard, who allways do what most benefits him ... you have that option ...
When you wish to play neutral bastard, who just dont care about anyone and anything and dont wanna be involved in anything ... well, this one is the real problem, but sometimes you can too laugh
And when you wish to play goldstar who will help anyone anywhere and anytime no matter the cost ... you have that option ...

And you are suppose to read those options and choose wich one suits your character the best ... and that is right way to roleplay. :3


You don't seem to get the difference between roleplaying in your head and roleplaying in the game. These other paths you describe may be ways for you as a person to see your character but the reality of the game is that there are two paths, no more or less. You help the Tieflings and are good or you murder them all and get betrayed / punished because you are bad. Larian themselves even put it that way in their last update. The only other "option" is a failsafe for when absolutely everyone is dead and I'm not sure if that even exists.

Unless the "evil" path is rewarding and more nuanced that 75% to 25% statistic is not going to change. It's also not divided further because, again, there are no other paths.

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Is a character acting entirely in a self-serving manner really "good" just because the best course of action for them happened to save lives?

Allow me to rephrase: Are you really *not* evil because you're only helping someone to get yourself cured?

I think the issue a lot of you are having is that you're conflating evil with "join the goblins and the Absolute." Sadly, Larian perpetuates this misunderstanding by describing helping the tieflings as good and helping the goblins as evil. An evil character could quite realistically (as many have said) be convinced to help the "good guys" to get themselves cured.

Or perhaps the issue is that joining the Absolute more or less requires the sort of psychopathy of chaotic evil, when most people appear to be approaching this with a more lawful or neutral evil mindset. You guys are being self serving, and are willing to do evil acts to further yourself, but you're not recklessly destructive, seeking to do evil for no other reason than to do evil.

Mind you, this is still a problem that should be addressed, in my opinion. Joining the Absolute is not currently an appealing option in the slightest, and I think if not for Larian telling us they wanted people to play as evil this go around, fewer people would have done so naturally.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
You don't seem to get the difference between roleplaying in your head and roleplaying in the game.

There isnt suppose to be any difference ... except the fact that in your head you can answer whatever you wish ... the the game, you need to choose between options that developers give you.
So you roleplay in your head thinking "what would Ragnarok do in this situation" ... and then, when that become clear, you can see the options, and ask in your head another question "wich one of those options is close to that what i was thinking".

Any else attitude, is certainly possible and valit ... just not exactly right. laugh
Then you need to ask some questions like "why would my character choose this" ... and my answer is: Exactly. wink

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
the reality of the game is that there are two paths, no more or less.

Sadly nope ... there are at least two outcomes that to be sure, but there is certainly much more paths ...
Lets move to another quote:

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
You help the Tieflings and are good or you murder them all and get betrayed / punished because you are bad. Larian themselves even put it that way in their last update. The only other "option" is a failsafe for when absolutely everyone is dead and I'm not sure if that even exists.

If you are right ... you will have no problem to answer me this few questions:

1) I decided to persuade Druids to stop ritual ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
2) I decided to side with Goblins and i killed Halsin, but at gate i reconcider and betrayed them ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
3) I decided to steal the holy idol to give it to Tieflings, so they can sold it and pay ressurection for Arabela ... Druids killed Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
4) I decided to persuade Tieflings to escape ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i didnt help Tieflings, yet i killed Goblins and saved Halsin ... am i good or evil?
5) I decided to not get involved between Druids, Tieflings and Goblins ... i killed Githyanki, stole their artefact and go search for Creche (not implemented yet i know) ... am i good or evil?

Since you tell me that there are only two paths, i bet you will have no problem to decide those situations. smile
Ofc. you can simply admit that there is more. wink

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Unless the "evil" path is rewarding and more nuanced that 75% to 25% statistic is not going to change. It's also not divided further because, again, there are no other paths.

I will not repeat myself, but for now i will quote myself. laugh
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
But if you will give it the work, and search some statistics you will find you that most people in Videogames are following the good path.
Its never 50:50 ... usualy it moves between 60-70% for good choices. wink Some examples: here, here, here, here, and here. smile
So on the contrary, this statistic dont show us that evil path is anyhow bad ... it shows us that players are acting exactly as they usualy do, wich kidna prooves that its witen accurately. laugh

That is the problem with statistic i have my whole life (I was educated in this field) ...
People can interpet numbers differently without required context. wink


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
You help the Tieflings and are good or you murder them all and get betrayed / punished because you are bad. Larian themselves even put it that way in their last update. The only other "option" is a failsafe for when absolutely everyone is dead and I'm not sure if that even exists.

If you are right ... you will have no problem to answer me this few questions:

1) I decided to persuade Druids to stop ritual ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
2) I decided to side with Goblins and i killed Halsin, but at gate i reconcider and betrayed them ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
3) I decided to steal the holy idol to give it to Tieflings, so they can sold it and pay ressurection for Arabela ... Druids killed Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
4) I decided to persuade Tieflings to escape ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i didnt help Tieflings, yet i killed Goblins and saved Halsin ... am i good or evil?
5) I decided to not get involved between Druids, Tieflings and Goblins ... i killed Githyanki, stole their artefact and go search for Creche (not implemented yet i know) ... am i good or evil?

Since you tell me that there are only two paths, i bet you will have no problem to decide those situations. smile
Ofc. you can simply admit that there is more. wink



1) Good
2) Good
3) Failsafe / Evil (you say nothing about the goblins)
4) Failsafe
5) Unimplemented neutral path

This is a video game with quantitative data so Larian cannot take these nuances you make up in your head into account. They say good / evil is 75% / 25% because they checked all gamestates and noticed an X amount of "the tiefling party happened" and "the goblin party happened" states. All of this other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant window dressing, and a third path where the party goes "well, we fucked up, all of our leads are dead" does not exist as far as I know.

So again; you can make up as many of these nuances and permutations as you like. I play a pragmatic evil character that saw Halsin as my best bet as a cure and thought the Absolute was probably a sham, so I helped the Tieflings. This makes be good because "the tiefling party happened" checkbox is marked in my playthrough. Whatever else I tell myself or even what I do besides the Tiefling / Goblin choice does not matter.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
You help the Tieflings and are good or you murder them all and get betrayed / punished because you are bad. Larian themselves even put it that way in their last update. The only other "option" is a failsafe for when absolutely everyone is dead and I'm not sure if that even exists.

If you are right ... you will have no problem to answer me this few questions:

1) I decided to persuade Druids to stop ritual ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
2) I decided to side with Goblins and i killed Halsin, but at gate i reconcider and betrayed them ... therefore i helped Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
3) I decided to steal the holy idol to give it to Tieflings, so they can sold it and pay ressurection for Arabela ... Druids killed Tieflings ... am i good or evil?
4) I decided to persuade Tieflings to escape ... my diceroll failed, and i killed them all ... therefore i didnt help Tieflings, yet i killed Goblins and saved Halsin ... am i good or evil?
5) I decided to not get involved between Druids, Tieflings and Goblins ... i killed Githyanki, stole their artefact and go search for Creche (not implemented yet i know) ... am i good or evil?

Since you tell me that there are only two paths, i bet you will have no problem to decide those situations. smile
Ofc. you can simply admit that there is more. wink



1) Good
2) Good
3) Failsafe / Evil (you say nothing about the goblins)
4) Failsafe
5) Unimplemented neutral path

This is a video game with quantitative data so Larian cannot take these nuances you make up in your head into account. They say good / evil is 75% / 25% because they checked all gamestates and noticed an X amount of "the tiefling party happened" and "the goblin party happened" states. All of this other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant window dressing, and a third path where the party goes "well, we fucked up, all of our leads are dead" does not exist as far as I know.

So again; you can make up as many of these nuances and permutations as you like. I play a pragmatic evil character that saw Halsin as my best bet as a cure and thought the Absolute was probably a sham, so I helped the Tieflings. This makes be good because "the tiefling party happened" checkbox is marked in my playthrough. Whatever else I tell myself or even what I do besides the Tiefling / Goblin choice does not matter.



Oooof 1 being good is chaotic Good at best. Yikes, I mean statistically the game might see it as part of the good solution, but you get my point.

Last edited by Riandor; 29/10/20 11:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Riandor
Oooof 1 being good is chaotic Good at best. Yikes, I mean statistically the game might see it as part of the good solution, but you get my point.

Of course, I'm not blind to the nuance of it. But statistics are.

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No, the evil route is pretty trash.
There should be a lot more incentive to being evil than being good. The rewards should be better and the path should be easier. It should be hard to do the right thing.
Currently the only reward for going the evil route is targeting the pre-teens who apparently go mental by seeing their character have sex with a drow and need to go share it on reddit.

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I honestly give up ... you are not even trying. -_-


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I honestly give up ... you are not even trying. -_-


I mean...
Its not a debate thread.

Its a feedback thread.

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