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The Absolute cult are a group of puppets that may also be a Mind Flayer sleeper cell where at the time and place of their choosing they'll hit a button and turn them all into Mind Flayers, as seen with the button on the ship. Nothing about that is a positive, our knowing simply gives us a chance to escape it. Again this is the core issue with working with the cult, they're deluded puppets with nothing of value to offer other than their deaths. Wiping them out isn't even good it's just the rational choice, they're screwed so you might as well put them down and prevent future issues.

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Who is looking forward to the next panel from hell? Personally, I'm hoping that Larian has read and understood our criticism. The goblin path needs a lot of work. There is no good incentive and no good rewards. Even the hag is able to give the player 1 attribute point. The absolute should be able to do the same, and even more.

The good path has Halsin, and the Tieflings as NPC's to carry the story and maybe appear later on?

The evil path has a Drow girl that tries to kill you on the next day. And nothing else. I was expecting my camp to fill up with slaves and servants in the evil playthrough, as opposed to a good character who would gather friends and supporters. Just like it happens in Star Wars Knights of the old Republic.

Keep hoping that Larian doesn't turn the evil playthrough into "murder everyone because of greed and because you can" playthrough. What we have currently is very dissapointing. The evil playthrough needs to reward the player with interesting characters and reveal interesting information about our companions, just like a good playthrough would. Gale doesn't talk a lot if you choose to side with the goblins, but apparently if you save the tieflings, he's revealing a lot more about himself.

There needs to be content for both sides, without favouring one above the other. The current companions are supposed to be "evil" yet the only one that really enjoys the goblin path is Astarion. Even Shadowheart just gets drunk at the party and doesn't open up herself.

Last edited by feedback_wizard; 15/02/21 04:07 PM.
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This is just a guess, but it looks like the main reward for the Evil Murder Hobo playthrough is that you get to engage in combat much more often and that you have bigger and (more interesting? again, I'm guessing) battles. For instance: Tieflings vs. Druids, you vs. the winner of the grove, or Goblins vs. whomever is in the grove, then, if you are still feeling a bit bloodthirsty, you vs. goblins.

Which is an excellent gameplay reward that also ties in with the Baldur's Gate lore about gods of murder and bloodshed AND with the Illithid tadpole's tendencies to eat each other up before they ascend to your eye.

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I give up. -_-
Just hope they dont.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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My thoughts of it Definetly not something you would expect able to do but I was not able to Finnish it due The alternative Road to moonrise Tower was blocked so could not see how far to The bottomless pit of The abyss can you take the story. Good that story in both sides of The Road thou, but it makes you think there's just so many characters each side of voin that wish that there would Be somekind middle ground veteen hero and Villain.

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The current evil playthrough could be classified as a chaotic evil, simply because there is little of choice besides slaughtering everyone. You cannot infulence what will happen to the tieflings, you cannot cause an internal war in goblin camp, there are not enough quests there. You can't influence how siege is being played out either.
For example a neutral evil, lawful evil, true neutral characters could still side with the Absolute only because they could see this as a chance for cure (I will not give spoilers why, unless asked to do so), but they absolutely wouldn't just decide to slay everyone in the grove. After all if they pretend to be a "good guy", who during the siege comes and actually lets them go out safely, (because either we persuaded Minthara, killed/bribed goblins to stay away they can get some Benefit from this later in Baldurs Gate 3 -> such as improved reputation etc. That doesn't mean that druids would be spared though.

The lack of choice is what boggles me the most, because for the good side we've the entire Kagha quest, interaction with the Parents, quest with Harpies, you can even kill the druids but when you save the grove Halsin says that it's okay. So there is other way to finish the whole plotline on the "good" side than on the "evil" one. That is a problem. The lack of choice.

How could this be solved? I have explored the options in another topic.
Quote
Problem:Not enough options are present
Solution:
a)Another quest from Minthara before attacking should be present. The questline ends too quickly compared to the "good" side.
b)There aren't enough possible outcomes for tieflings. Solutions mentioned in this thread include:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark
- Sacrifice them for the Absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers
- Give them to goblins
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.
c)We should be able to weaken the druid grove by playing on the conflict between Druid Kagha and Zevlor. A way to make them fight between each other should exist, like showing the tieflings that Kagha works for Shadow druids, which would result in her + few of druids (not all) fighting against Zevlor, us and tieflings + druids loyal to Halsin.
d)Zevlor, Kagha, Halsin should be possible to capture.

Quote
If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Exact same problem happens with Halsin, when he attacks us. We can cause infinite amount of fights with him being 1 hp at the start.
Could be easily solved by a dialog happening between him and us, with a possibility to not kill him and via persuasion still gain the help (although the degree should be lesser, compared to the "good side"). He should be possible to capture here as well, if fight happens.

Quote
Problem: Currently, the siege on both sides isn't the most interesting combat in the game, because:
a) It's long due to big amount of combatants
b) We can't influence it much
c) Little outcomes exist except wiping out the enemies

Solution:
- Possibility of convincing the leader of Goblins to use the secret tunnel, resulting in different scenario of attack. Cutscene should appear at the start, with PC deciding which side to take. The attackers should divide into 2 groups, one coming from the tunnels and one from the side of the gate.
- Leader of the opposing force dying/being knocked out/incapitated should affect their soldiers negatively.
- Killing enough enemies should not only affect the combat effectivness of the particular side, but also if enough combatants die, the rest should flee.
- During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.


Quote
Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

Quote
4)Goblin Camp and evil path
Problem: It's very hard to get inside without being a drow or helping Sazza.
Solution:
Siding with goblins during the first grove fight should let us obtain Symbol of the Absolute, carried by all of the cultists, essentially acting as a proof that we are one of them. Same symbol should be possible to loot from one of Goblins, obtained via persuasion/intimidation from the guards at first gate, or we could just force the guards to give it to us via strength, simliar to how we convince the Novice Crusher to listen to us.
This would solve the need for multiple DC due to numerous guards asking for our identity.

Quote
Problem: Game puts a pressure on us, to side with tieflings, or straight tells us "how bad we are now", like what happens with Volo in the camp during the celebration, or the fact that we are handed down the broken lute belonging to Alfira previously. This results in deterring effect towards undecided players.

Quote
Problem: The evil questline is too short and we are told too little about it, until the very end.
Solution: Adding a bit of mind-reading checks here and there, adding a few quests in the Goblin Camp area, with some being restricted only to evil path.
This is especially visible when looking at how often we are told, almost straight from the start, how powerful Halsin is, who is he, what abilities he has etc. The lack of simliar narration for the "bad guys" is a little disappointing.

Quote
5) Important characters (Kagha, Zevlor, Halsin, Dror, Priestess Gut, Minthara) should feature additional possibilites, such as:
a) resurrecting, either as an ally (if for example Halsin dies during the escape fight), or just so that we can capture them afterwards
b) capture for interrogation and in case of Minthara and Halsin, convincing them to join our side (not instantly obviously)
Our interactions with prisoners should be varied, in terms of how well we treat them. Especially the 2 most important npcs in act 1, who show a good potential for next acts - Minthara and Halsin.
A good treatment (such as being given a bedroll inside the prison cage, normal food instead of bread and water, etc.) could give an opportunity to recruit them later as a companions (and if player wishes to) even romance. It would be interesting too, seeing how we can either redeem/drag them towards the darkness.

Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2


There are numerous problems with basically every part when it comes to the evil side. It certainly has to be improved, so that it's not really 1 option that is possible to be done there.
If I want to roleplay an selfish character who sides with Absolute only for the power/possible way to cure, but doesn't want to cause unneeded harm? Can't be done.
Capturing prisoners for information or to possibly drag them towards darkness? Can't be done.

Last edited by TheOnlyRealTav; 03/03/21 07:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
For example a neutral evil, lawful evil, true neutral characters could still side with the Absolute only because they could see this as a chance for cure (I will not give spoilers why, unless asked to do so), but they absolutely wouldn't just decide to slay everyone in the grove.
Last time i tryed (patch 2) there was option to "miss the raid" ...
It was simple, you send Minthara with her Goblins to attack and then simply long rest few times not caring about it ... then once you wake up, your questlog update to "the groowe was destroyed before you could do anything about it" or something like that.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
For example a neutral evil, lawful evil, true neutral characters could still side with the Absolute only because they could see this as a chance for cure (I will not give spoilers why, unless asked to do so), but they absolutely wouldn't just decide to slay everyone in the grove.
Last time i tryed (patch 2) there was option to "miss the raid" ...
It was simple, you send Minthara with her Goblins to attack and then simply long rest few times not caring about it ... then once you wake up, your questlog update to "the groowe was destroyed before you could do anything about it" or something like that.
Thanks for letting me know, I actually could try to test it right now in the Patch 4, as I have plenty of saves. When I'm done I will upload some screenshots and post them here, to check the results.
But, still if we want to side with Absolute for power/possible cure and do not slaughter everyone, that's still not possible to do frown .

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For all the hate directed at the evil path, the good path is just as meaningless. After you "save the grove" and Halsin joins your camp, you can go right back to the grove, murder everyone and take the idol for Gale. In EA, there is absolutely no way to see how your choices matter further down the line when you enter Baldur's gate. So it is kind of impossible to accurately judge how deep EITHER path is. The evil path is not a murder hobo path, it is a cult path. So the question is, how will that effect the story when you reach Baldur's gate?

Not to mention, the murder path does not murder the children tieflings, so there is a chance that they will reach Baldur's Gate and totally out you as evil. There are so many variations at this point, that trying to judge the value of either path, is moot.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
For all the hate directed at the evil path, the good path is just as meaningless. After you "save the grove" and Halsin joins your camp, you can go right back to the grove, murder everyone and take the idol for Gale. In EA, there is absolutely no way to see how your choices matter further down the line when you enter Baldur's gate. So it is kind of impossible to accurately judge how deep EITHER path is. The evil path is not a murder hobo path, it is a cult path. So the question is, how will that effect the story when you reach Baldur's gate?

Not to mention, the murder path does not murder the children tieflings, so there is a chance that they will reach Baldur's Gate and totally out you as evil. There are so many variations at this point, that trying to judge the value of either path, is moot.
This isn't a defense of the evil path.

It is a condemnation of the writing for the entire game.

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Originally Posted by divideby8
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
For all the hate directed at the evil path, the good path is just as meaningless. After you "save the grove" and Halsin joins your camp, you can go right back to the grove, murder everyone and take the idol for Gale. In EA, there is absolutely no way to see how your choices matter further down the line when you enter Baldur's gate. So it is kind of impossible to accurately judge how deep EITHER path is. The evil path is not a murder hobo path, it is a cult path. So the question is, how will that effect the story when you reach Baldur's gate?

Not to mention, the murder path does not murder the children tieflings, so there is a chance that they will reach Baldur's Gate and totally out you as evil. There are so many variations at this point, that trying to judge the value of either path, is moot.
This isn't a defense of the evil path.

It is a condemnation of the writing for the entire game.

I mean that is your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Not to mention, the murder path does not murder the children tieflings
I believe you can find their corpses in "Dragon cave" ...
Or at least that is how it was last time i played evil route (patch 3)


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Not to mention, the murder path does not murder the children tieflings
I believe you can find their corpses in "Dragon cave" ...
Or at least that is how it was last time i played evil route (patch 3)

Actually, though I haven't tested it yet I think it might depend. If you just attack, you may be able to kill the children. But if you go in, and speak to a specific female tiefling, she states that we got time to seal them away. So if you then go to the gate, and go traitor I think under that circumstance the kids might live. It would be cool if that were true, it would give 2 different options. I am going to try it on my next evil run through. There is a few ways you can do it. I did the same thing in SWTOR, just because your evil does not mean you have to choose every dark choice. I found that pretty dull. I much more enjoyed making my character a little more nuanced, same with the good characters I would play.

But like I said, I think it is far far to early to judge what the evil path is in regards to quality, because we have yet to see the long term repercussions of it. We haven't even seen what the result is at Moonrise tower.

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I didnt tryed so far to warn them ...
I know i was curious about those childern, so i visited Dragon Cave ... and there was couple goblins in pool of blood. :-/


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I didnt tryed so far to warn them ...
I know i was curious about those childern, so i visited Dragon Cave ... and there was couple goblins in pool of blood. :-/

Those tiefling children can be nasty. Talk about a child from Hell...It was probably Mol that killed them, she is a viscous little sprite.

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I really hope they will change evil path. At the beginning it looks good but result is unsatisfying. Minthara should be in our camp like Halsin and there should be more plot not just cuting content and companions (one that leaves after battle)

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Funny, i really hope they dont ...
And if you wish to know why, there is 18 pages of it. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Spoilers obviously but I really wanted to give it a try but it is such a chore to go through.

Literally nothing incentivizes me to do evil things... well besides doing evil just for being evil. If anything I am penalized for going down that path even though I should probably be incentivized more to be evil rather than good.
So if I am good I know that all the tieflings I help will be found in Baldur's Gate so my good actions will have longterm benefit.
Apparently if I help Mol I would also have the new thieves' guild as allies? Just so many characters and potential plotlines for Act 2 and 3 that I anticipate in seeing them resolved in the next acts.

There is also the underdark issue where the refugee fungal king wants me to betray my current employer for "rewards"... buddy I am already getting rewards, why should I clear a WHOLE city of friendlies? There are also many unrelated NPCs that will give me quests and show me interesting interactions that I would probably have to kill too. Why? Why should I do that?

It just seems to me the only people that would go down the Evil path are those that are somewhat masochistic and also psychotic. Only the insane would do bad things because it makes them feel good.
Larian needs to incentivize me to be evil.

Here are some potential ideas.
1) Give me Sazza as a companion... well more like a subservient underling. I am a True Soul afterall.
2) Give me Minthara as a companion, maybe I can bend her to my allegiance rather than the Absolute's down the road.
3) Give me a Goblin Horn to summon a goblin raiding party to aid me in difficult fights.
4) Give me thralls and minions of true soul. Like the two siblings I meet on the road, they could be interesting characters to learn more about. And who knows maybe to torment or reward as I see fit.
5) Give me the option of not killing the refugees and druids in a massive massacre. Weren't there talk of slave traders in Goblin Fortress? Give me choices! Maybe certain characters can be spared and sold, Why should I kill Mol and her buddies when I can just spare them and have them work for me!

There are a lot of options.
Maybe the evil playthrough can impact my camp look as well. It would become more savage looking, maybe I can hire Drow and Ogre merceneries. Have evil pillage and conquest questlines... something!
Honestly burning the orphanage just because it makes me so edgy is not that attractive of a choice.

Anyway that's my 2cents. I did not find the evil play through interesting at all.

Doing evil "things" in general is the easier solution. A alignment system would help clear this up so people would actually see what they do is X alignment. I'll do two examples, the first is the confrontation at the ruin entrance. You hear people talking loudly at the entrance, they look like a band of thugs and actually are their to plunder the ruins for richs. Do you leave them be and find another route? Confronting them, you can out right kill them, lie / minipulate, try and convince them, or fail your rolls and go into battle. If you go into battle do you out right kill them or do non-lethal damage and knock them out? I would guess the people that failed the rolls probably 90% of them out right killed them. What alignment would you consider this. I'd say its a evil act, cause you just murdered a bunch of humans cause it was easier than knocking them out.

Example two: there is a goblin in a cage and a Teifling has a bow pointed at her, most of you should know this scenario. Even if it is a goblin do you try and save the creatures life or let her die.

These are alignment based choices, there is no "evil route", there are good, neutral, lawful, chaotic, and evil choices.

I was going to post the alignment section of d&d 5e freebe pdf but that small paragraph doesn't explain anything.

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Spoilers obviously but I really wanted to give it a try but it is such a chore to go through.

Literally nothing incentivizes me to do evil things... well besides doing evil just for being evil. If anything I am penalized for going down that path even though I should probably be incentivized more to be evil rather than good.
So if I am good I know that all the tieflings I help will be found in Baldur's Gate so my good actions will have longterm benefit.
Apparently if I help Mol I would also have the new thieves' guild as allies? Just so many characters and potential plotlines for Act 2 and 3 that I anticipate in seeing them resolved in the next acts.

There is also the underdark issue where the refugee fungal king wants me to betray my current employer for "rewards"... buddy I am already getting rewards, why should I clear a WHOLE city of friendlies? There are also many unrelated NPCs that will give me quests and show me interesting interactions that I would probably have to kill too. Why? Why should I do that?

It just seems to me the only people that would go down the Evil path are those that are somewhat masochistic and also psychotic. Only the insane would do bad things because it makes them feel good.
Larian needs to incentivize me to be evil.

Here are some potential ideas.
1) Give me Sazza as a companion... well more like a subservient underling. I am a True Soul afterall.
2) Give me Minthara as a companion, maybe I can bend her to my allegiance rather than the Absolute's down the road.
3) Give me a Goblin Horn to summon a goblin raiding party to aid me in difficult fights.
4) Give me thralls and minions of true soul. Like the two siblings I meet on the road, they could be interesting characters to learn more about. And who knows maybe to torment or reward as I see fit.
5) Give me the option of not killing the refugees and druids in a massive massacre. Weren't there talk of slave traders in Goblin Fortress? Give me choices! Maybe certain characters can be spared and sold, Why should I kill Mol and her buddies when I can just spare them and have them work for me!

There are a lot of options.
Maybe the evil playthrough can impact my camp look as well. It would become more savage looking, maybe I can hire Drow and Ogre merceneries. Have evil pillage and conquest questlines... something!
Honestly burning the orphanage just because it makes me so edgy is not that attractive of a choice.

Anyway that's my 2cents. I did not find the evil play through interesting at all.

Doing evil "things" in general is the easier solution. A alignment system would help clear this up so people would actually see what they do is X alignment. I'll do two examples, the first is the confrontation at the ruin entrance. You hear people talking loudly at the entrance, they look like a band of thugs and actually are their to plunder the ruins for richs. Do you leave them be and find another route? Confronting them, you can out right kill them, lie / minipulate, try and convince them, or fail your rolls and go into battle. If you go into battle do you out right kill them or do non-lethal damage and knock them out? I would guess the people that failed the rolls probably 90% of them out right killed them. What alignment would you consider this. I'd say its a evil act, cause you just murdered a bunch of humans cause it was easier than knocking them out.

Example two: there is a goblin in a cage and a Teifling has a bow pointed at her, most of you should know this scenario. Even if it is a goblin do you try and save the creatures life or let her die.

These are alignment based choices, there is no "evil route", there are good, neutral, lawful, chaotic, and evil choices.

I was going to post the alignment section of d&d 5e freebe pdf but that small paragraph doesn't explain anything.

Chaotic evil is an example of it actually often being harder. If a PC wants to play like a "murder-hobo" I wouldn't say that it's easier, when entire world is an enemy. Also having reliable allies, access to merchants, etc; none of this can happen if PC is playing like a "murder-hobo" and just slaughters everyone. Also you lose access to information from NPCs if all that you do is just attacking them outright as soon as you see them (although it's fixed to a certain degree thanks to Speak with Dead spell).

Also being very selfish (and that is described as evil thing pretty often in D&D, even if you cause no harm to others) can cause lots of problems, simply because it can make people turn against you.
Or Imagine an evil, 2000 IQ wizard who is ruling an evil kingdom and manipulates the people living there into believing that he is actually good. I wouldn't describe this as a "easy solution" either.

I wouldn't say that it's "easy choices" in general. It's mega dependant on situation. Good that entire alignment system is being slowly made less and less important with each edition, because all that it does is making very limited character creation choices and makes the entire narration too simple.
More and more morally grey characters appear in new games because they are the most interesting ones. (and they resemble real life personalities the most)

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Originally Posted by Salto89
I really hope they will change evil path. At the beginning it looks good but result is unsatisfying. Minthara should be in our camp like Halsin and there should be more plot not just cuting content and companions (one that leaves after battle)
Instead of changing it, they can simply add new options and everyone will be satisfied.
Want to play it in the old chaotic evil style? No problem!
Or lawful evil-style? Yep that can be done too.
For the evil playthrough, adding things like described here, would be enough:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2

Go to the post in middle of the topic, which contains the summary of all things there.
We shouldn't be forced to play only in a chaotic-evil way.

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