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Originally Posted by Abits

Abou DAi - it's super boring imo and even if you can stomach the story, there is both much and nothing to do other than that. You can go to many places and do many things, but it's just busy work with nothing particularly interesting happening.


I read an interesting critique of the game, which pointed out that the offscreen adventures your advisors have sound infinitely more fun than you traipsing around the forest collecting mosaic pieces and wine bottles. Which is - you know - a weird thing for the inquisitor to be doing.

I'm not sure how much of this has to do with Bioware chasing Bethesda's boring-ass single-player MMO format, and how much is just low-quality padding due to lack of time, since actual quality content would require more hours of work. Even Dragon Age: Origins had a bunch of stupid bulletin-board style MMO quests.

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Originally Posted by Telephasic
Originally Posted by Abits

Abou DAi - it's super boring imo and even if you can stomach the story, there is both much and nothing to do other than that. You can go to many places and do many things, but it's just busy work with nothing particularly interesting happening.


I read an interesting critique of the game, which pointed out that the offscreen adventures your advisors have sound infinitely more fun than you traipsing around the forest collecting mosaic pieces and wine bottles. Which is - you know - a weird thing for the inquisitor to be doing.

I'm not sure how much of this has to do with Bioware chasing Bethesda's boring-ass single-player MMO format, and how much is just low-quality padding due to lack of time, since actual quality content would require more hours of work. Even Dragon Age: Origins had a bunch of stupid bulletin-board style MMO quests.

I'm pretty sure everything about it is Bioware chasing Bethesda, they just did a poor job at that, and should have stuck to their strengths. I would have been much more happy with a smaller game with more to do.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
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Originally Posted by robertthebard

...and this is the problem with this kind of conversation, the highly subjective nature of what makes a game "good".


My personal arguments were never about any game being good/bad. There are games that I consider to be RPGs proper that I'd happily call pretty bad -- I likewise never called the Witcher a bad game. That said, I can definitely make a connection between "Nu"-Bioware (post their D&Dish games) and The Witcher though. Everything that came before, it's difficult. There's a German Channel on the Tube called DevPlay where the (in)famous argument was made by one German games developer that: "The RPG is dead -- there are only action-adventures anymore." Every time I fire up a game like The Witcher (3), I have to think of that quote.

As said, don't want to get into a debate about genre definitions though, that's futile. smile To me it's just that BG and Witcher 3 are worlds apart, right form their core vision of what they were trying to accomplish. This is nothing bad, as diversity is a good thing. However, if it is widely considered that they belong to the same genre, they couldn't be much more different games. And this goes all across the board, in terms of their storytelling technique, presentation, systems, gameplay, generally mechanics, pacing, the entire package.

Not that any of that matters. laugh


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Originally Posted by Sven_
Originally Posted by robertthebard

...and this is the problem with this kind of conversation, the highly subjective nature of what makes a game "good".


My personal arguments were never about any game being good/bad. There are games that I consider to be RPGs proper that I'd happily call pretty bad -- I likewise never called the Witcher a bad game. That said, I can definitely make a connection between "Nu"-Bioware (post their D&Dish games) and The Witcher though. Everything that came before, it's difficult. There's a German Channel on the Tube called DevPlay where the (in)famous argument was made by one German games developer that: "The RPG is dead -- there are only action-adventures anymore." Every time I fire up a game like The Witcher (3), I have to think of that quote.

As said, don't want to get into a debate about genre definitions though, that's futile. smile To me it's just that BG and Witcher 3 are worlds apart, right form their core vision of what they were trying to accomplish. This is nothing bad, as diversity is a good thing. However, if it is widely considered that they belong to the same genre, they couldn't be much more different games. And this goes all across the board, in terms of their storytelling technique, presentation, systems, gameplay, generally mechanics, pacing, the entire package.

Not that any of that matters. laugh


I have to disagre. The fact that a German gamer guy said it doesn't make it true. You can call it action RPG and pretend it's completely different but I don't buy it. And even if you define RPG as narrowly as RPG with a RTwP or turn base, it's in the title. You have many games that are "real rpg" even today. And just for curiousity, where would you put Kotor and dragon age? Why they are less RPG? I hope it's not because they are not dnd based, since many of the games in the title are not dnd based as well.


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Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No


+1


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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I would like to share my own experience after reading all of you.

Pathfinder kingmaker is, for now, the game the closest to the BG-feel and here is why for me.

First I would like to talk about the level-up aspect of the game.
I remember the first time I play, it was so hard at the beginning. But at the same time I was really charmed by all the possibility I have to develop my team.
Each level let you free to choose where you go and after few games I became familiar with the gameplay and so I could tried many funny things.
And each charm had his charm, his particularity. So this is one of the reason which make me play again and again.

What make me leave the game first was the realm management. I was SO happy to have a realm to manage ! This is why I couldn't get how, despite of all my efforts and vigilance, I ended up ruined, game over. So harsh. It's, maybe one of the biggest fail for me. All the game I played after I put the realm difficulty at the lowest and I found it still not dat easy...

The combat are the second point which give me this BG-feel. I played RTwP (cause obviously I like it) and it was just like BG. The fight begin, everybody move and shot and fight and I pause, think, give orders and let's go (before I pause one sec later xD).
This point, I insist is crucial for a game who would be a successor (or wathever the name you want to use. Someone said me BG3 was not a successor but a sequel. I don't really get the point but maybe it's the langage barrier). I really appreciate, from BG1 to pathfinder, the flow you can have with RTwP. It feels so more real (can't get the people who said turn-based is more real. :-/)
So I enjoyed the fights in pathfinder cause there was intense, hard, with lot of spells and move from all the party.

The story. Honestly, I think I'm in a way really demanding about this point however I'm ever surprised by how people easily trash-talked about the story of the games.
People should remember that it's hard and harder to create original synopsis and it's not really a problem. I mean, a lot of really great stories have a pretty basic synopsis. What matters is how the story is narrated.
So, I appreciate pathfinder, appreciate the treason, when we had to choose between two companion quests. I appreciate the narrative, the bitch who played with me, etc etc.
Sure, there is ever a moment when you think "I would have had the opportunity to do it" but we have to be humble and a little cooperative sometimes.
By the way, I ever loved the story of BG1, loved the one of PoE 2, really loved the one of the Witcher 3... Well.. Wait... I'm looking for a story I didn't appreciate.
I know ! Assassin's creed story are the worst ! I love the games but can't stand the narrative which is dramatic fro my point of view.
About BG3, I'll wait to see. As I already said, the story looks classic at first but we could be surprised so I'll be patient and won't judge on EA a "looks-like-pretty-classic-story". MAybe it'll be awesome, maybe it'll be "meh". Wait and see !

In pathfinder I really appreciate the companions ! there was interesting, some archetype and some others who was not. They had good side quests and even some amazing surprise (Ho Tristan why... :'( ). Even the romance was good, they came step by step and we could feel the companions know what they want.
And yeah it's a direct critics against BG3. The romance so far are really deceiving. I give a staff to Gale so two days later he wanna blow mine ? Seriously ? I let Astarion suck my neck so two days later he wanna... well you get it. This is not romance, this is strange nymphomania.
Well.. Maybe it's cause of the tadpole !!! What a twistplot.

In Pathfinder, I love the freedom we had to explore. It's ever a little confusing but this is a big part of the pleasure.
This is something BG3 doesn't give me but it's still EA, so maybe with more content we will be able to travel wherever we want ? I hope so. For now, it's a little to directive.

To conclude, for me, the BG-spirit is a good balance between :
- character with lot of classes and level-up possibilities
- freedom to explore
- flowless fights (not fast and furious, but at least not slow and tedious)
- strong main story, well-narrated
- memorable companions

Maybe I forgot something, but at the moment this is the 4 major elements I'm looking for.





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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No


+1

😭


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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All I know is kingmaker is the best CRPG I've ever played and I'm about 10x more excited for WOTR than BG3 full release.

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Originally Posted by Telephasic
Originally Posted by Abits

Abou DAi - it's super boring imo and even if you can stomach the story, there is both much and nothing to do other than that. You can go to many places and do many things, but it's just busy work with nothing particularly interesting happening.


I read an interesting critique of the game, which pointed out that the offscreen adventures your advisors have sound infinitely more fun than you traipsing around the forest collecting mosaic pieces and wine bottles. Which is - you know - a weird thing for the inquisitor to be doing.

I'm not sure how much of this has to do with Bioware chasing Bethesda's boring-ass single-player MMO format, and how much is just low-quality padding due to lack of time, since actual quality content would require more hours of work. Even Dragon Age: Origins had a bunch of stupid bulletin-board style MMO quests.

Yes I agree with this, but I'd also add that by the time Bioware made DA:I they had been working on six games in the same family-line: BG1, BG2, NwN1, DA:O, DA2, and DA:I. I think they were burned out and their creative juices had run dry by then. They needed to go do some other things, make some other types of games -- even if only RPGs in a different type of setting than high fantasy. So to answer @Abits' question, I do have some hope that the huge turnover of personnel at Bioware in recent months has been good for them. They badly needed new blood. Let's keep in mind that when they made BG1 they were still very much a nobody, a studio most gamers had never heard of. So it is very possible their next game can be akin to starting fresh. Since I love the DA franchise, its lore and its setting, I am keeping my hopes alive.

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I'll buy Dragon Age: Dread Wolf Rising if it ever shows up. But that's probably their last shot as a studio within EA. If it has the same response as Andromeda and Anthem, EA is going to disband the studio totally.

Man though, it's taking them some time. DA:I came out in 2014! I mean, Dragon Age II had too quick of a development cycle (like a year and a half) - which is part of why it was a failure. But they turned around DA:I after only about 3.5 years. It's closing in on twice as long now, and we've only seen a handful of very crude renderings. Of course, part of that is because the original game development was halted to help move along Andromeda/Anthem, and EA at one point canceled entirely because the game had no live-service component. Last I've heard it's going to be live-service now, which will probably kill the franchise for good.

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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No


+1

😭


There is no way EA will let Bioware go back to its roots. Instead it will further push the "shooter with sex scenes" gameplay the later Mass Effect titles had.

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Originally Posted by Telephasic
I'll buy Dragon Age: Dread Wolf Rising if it ever shows up. But that's probably their last shot as a studio within EA. If it has the same response as Andromeda and Anthem, EA is going to disband the studio totally.

Man though, it's taking them some time. DA:I came out in 2014! I mean, Dragon Age II had two quick of a development cycle (like a year and a half) - which is part of why it was a failure. But they turned around DA:I after only about 3.5 years. It's closing in on twice as long now, and we've only seen a handful of very crude renderings. Of course, part of that is because the original game development was halted to help move along Andromeda/Anthem, and EA at one point canceled entirely because the game had no live-service component. Last I've heard it's going to be live-service now, which will probably kill the franchise for good.

Based on how da2 came out maybe they should take their time. I don't care if I have to wait another 3 years if it means getting some semblance of Bioware back


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Telephasic
I'll buy Dragon Age: Dread Wolf Rising if it ever shows up. But that's probably their last shot as a studio within EA. If it has the same response as Andromeda and Anthem, EA is going to disband the studio totally.

Man though, it's taking them some time. DA:I came out in 2014! I mean, Dragon Age II had two quick of a development cycle (like a year and a half) - which is part of why it was a failure. But they turned around DA:I after only about 3.5 years. It's closing in on twice as long now, and we've only seen a handful of very crude renderings. Of course, part of that is because the original game development was halted to help move along Andromeda/Anthem, and EA at one point canceled entirely because the game had no live-service component. Last I've heard it's going to be live-service now, which will probably kill the franchise for good.

Based on how da2 came out maybe they should take their time. I don't care if I have to wait another 3 years if it means getting some semblance of Bioware back


Again, EA now only wants to do "live service" games. This means some combination of microtransactions, lootboxes, releasing a buggy, unfinished game at launch which will be finished a year later with DLC, etc. There will be some component beyond forking out the $50-$60 at launch, that's for sure.

While this model is compatible with some styles of RPG, I do not think it's compatible with the sort of story-heavy RPGs that Bioware cut its teeth on.

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Originally Posted by Telephasic
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Telephasic
I'll buy Dragon Age: Dread Wolf Rising if it ever shows up. But that's probably their last shot as a studio within EA. If it has the same response as Andromeda and Anthem, EA is going to disband the studio totally.

Man though, it's taking them some time. DA:I came out in 2014! I mean, Dragon Age II had two quick of a development cycle (like a year and a half) - which is part of why it was a failure. But they turned around DA:I after only about 3.5 years. It's closing in on twice as long now, and we've only seen a handful of very crude renderings. Of course, part of that is because the original game development was halted to help move along Andromeda/Anthem, and EA at one point canceled entirely because the game had no live-service component. Last I've heard it's going to be live-service now, which will probably kill the franchise for good.

Based on how da2 came out maybe they should take their time. I don't care if I have to wait another 3 years if it means getting some semblance of Bioware back


Again, EA now only wants to do "live service" games. This means some combination of microtransactions, lootboxes, releasing a buggy, unfinished game at launch which will be finished a year later with DLC, etc. There will be some component beyond forking out the $50-$60 at launch, that's for sure.

While this model is compatible with some styles of RPG, I do not think it's compatible with the sort of story-heavy RPGs that Bioware cut its teeth on.

People likes to blame EA for Bioware's fall, and pretty sure they had a big part in it, but Bioware also have responsibility to get their shit together. And I say this with a lot of pain because I'll always love Bioware even if they won't release any more games.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Zefhyr

Pathfinder
I remember the first time I play, it was so hard at the beginning. But at the same time I was really charmed by all the possibility I have to develop my team.


I think that is a good point. Its in line with the "how are these people level 1" thread. In PoE and Pathfinder people came from classic backgrounds - acolyte, soldier, etc...and it felt like you were all embarking on crazy stuff and would be getting better as a team and would be dialing it in to the way the party played. Right now, and it might just be the narrative, it feels like everyone is just picking their path even though you are obviously doing it.

Originally Posted by Zefhyr

What make me leave the game first was the realm management. I was SO happy to have a realm to manage ! This is why I couldn't get how, despite of all my efforts and vigilance, I ended up ruined, game over.


Yeah, it was something I was all about. Giving people (like camps!) they can manage makes them happy. A realm, fuck yeah. However, even on auto, it was distractingly shitty and the amount of time Id have to spend to learn what to do was prohibitively fun. A good takeaway is that people LIKE management. Football and Soccer Manager games exist, its a thin with people.


Originally Posted by Zefhyr

RTwP


Too close to call for me, ive played plenty of both and I dont know if this game would reap any benefits from it. They arent flat sewer systems like in BG or clearing a fist floor of a house. Its a multi-level fracas that might just be more of Pause with Real Time.

Originally Posted by Zefhyr

The story. I appreciate pathfinder, appreciate the treason, when we had to choose between two companion quests. I appreciate the narrative, the bitch who played with me, etc etc.
Sure, there is ever a moment when you think "I would have had the opportunity to do it" but we have to be humble and a little cooperative sometimes.

In pathfinder I really appreciate the companions ! there was interesting, some archetype and some others who was not. They had good side quests and even some amazing surprise (Ho Tristan why... :'( ). Even the romance was good, they came step by step and we could feel the companions know what they want.


Its hard to tell because I remember the companions stories as a total narrative as Ive beaten it so many times. Im having a hard time remembering how long it took to actually know Eder or Aloth. But, you hit on something that made me think: The companions had all made decisions and some of those decisions haunted them. In this, everyone was persecuted in someway and have a "no regrets" mentality. its hard ot debate philosophy with someone who doesn't think theyve ever done anything wrong. The only moral ambiguity is how the moral relativism of your choices / agreements agrees or disagrees with other companions. There are no tales of caution from any of them, they simply think you should have done something different. Theyve never done something wrong and learned from it.

Originally Posted by Zefhyr

In Pathfinder, I love the freedom we had to explore. It's ever a little confusing but this is a big part of the pleasure.
This is something BG3 doesn't give me but it's still EA, so maybe with more content we will be able to travel wherever we want ? I hope so. For now, it's a little to directive.


This is hard too because its a heck of a hook but the effect of it is that you have no agency. Exploring and dicking around is a specifically BAD idea and they tell you so in no uncertain terms. TICK TOCK GET TO THE HEALER RUN RUN RUN GO GO. The world isn't big enough in EA to get the choice of "wow. where to go next?". That bein said the ticking-clock narrative is somethin ive run in D&D games before and have since removed to a slow, background heart beat. Players dont like it because it makes them feel rushed and not in control.


Great write-up, very thoughtful!


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Telephasic
I'll buy Dragon Age: Dread Wolf Rising if it ever shows up. But that's probably their last shot as a studio within EA. If it has the same response as Andromeda and Anthem, EA is going to disband the studio totally.

Man though, it's taking them some time. DA:I came out in 2014! I mean, Dragon Age II had two quick of a development cycle (like a year and a half) - which is part of why it was a failure. But they turned around DA:I after only about 3.5 years. It's closing in on twice as long now, and we've only seen a handful of very crude renderings. Of course, part of that is because the original game development was halted to help move along Andromeda/Anthem, and EA at one point canceled entirely because the game had no live-service component. Last I've heard it's going to be live-service now, which will probably kill the franchise for good.

Yes I agree they have this one shot to regain their standing as a story-driven RPG studio. But I think they know this as well, and so they will take their time to get DA4 right.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/27/21404442/dragon-age-4-behind-the-scenes-bts-bioware

Fwiw, I think the "live services" bit is a little overblown: https://www.videogameschronicle.com...uction-behind-the-scenes-video-confirms/
In early 2018, it was reported that BioWare had rebooted Dragon Age 4 and that its replacement would be a “live service” game.

Studio GM Casey Hudson responded to the report on Twitter: “Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on,” he wrote.

“Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about ‘live’ it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.”

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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No


+1


I lose faith in BioWare after they release DAI.

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Originally Posted by dunehunter
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Abits
Do you guys still think there is hope for Bioware to come back?

No


+1


I lose faith in BioWare after they release DAI.

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Originally Posted by Zefhyr

Pathfinder kingmaker is, for now, the game the closest to the BG-feel and here is why for me.


I agree wholeheartedly. Pathfinder Kingmaker was excellent.

I think BG3 could be even better though. It is nowhere near as good yet, but it certainly has potential. I confess to being disappointed by the EA, mainly because it shows to me that Larian really doesn't have the vision to pull it off. But maybe the will do a good job and a robust modding community could fill in the gaps.

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