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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
HELIA PLAYERMODEL Link
[Linked Image]
She looks like a dwarf, not a halfling.

Bhaalspawn slayer form! [Linked Image] Does this mean the protagonist from BG2 makes a return?

Well big papa Bhaal got resurrected so he might be up to his old tricks again.

I believe one of the dataminers said a shelfed originally is supposed to be a Bhaalspawn as well

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Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM

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Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM

I hope Silvanus tears that one in particular,... he has some attitude for a damn druid.
Tbh this option should be there for everyone. Not just a druid.


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Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
You know, I was worried about this kind of dialogue specifically. Even when you are a druid, maybe even especially because of it, these crazy xenophobes balk at you about their mission from the tree god to kick out the demonspawn. 🙄

Am I just not up to speed with FR druid lore? Is this supposed to be the correct characterisation of them as a class? Why does Halsin exist then?

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
You know, I was worried about this kind of dialogue specifically. Even when you are a druid, maybe even especially because of it, these crazy xenophobes balk at you about their mission from the tree god to kick out the demonspawn. 🙄

Am I just not up to speed with FR druid lore? Is this supposed to be the correct characterisation of them as a class? Why does Halsin exist then?


I know Silvanus is all about "wild nature" in his portfolio which covers quite a bit more than just plants and it's also why he as a god is quite a bit stronger than most. It includes wild magic that occurs naturally, for example, which is why Haslin is all over the place. Devils are naturally lawful most of the time but more importantly those tieflings in the grove do try to take everything with no concern for nature. They are a thieves guild in disguise. Their main goal was to steal the idol and fence it as well as spy. They are not good in the slightest. They have been gathering info and stealing anything valuable on the way to the city. They stay in baldurs gate because they are already in someones pocket. Think about it. Cazador is after vamp boy, nightsong activity, hag deals, Minratha betraying lloth, the absolute activity and secrets, etc. All can be sold including us being tadpole hosts. The idol business was just a bread crumb to lead you to hints about what they really represent.

Edit: looking back a little, Kahga was very right to be hostile towards them. If you as a player let her go to trial, assuming you talked sense into her, she will be on trial for betraying the grove to shadow druids and nothing else most likely. I don't even think she wanted to attack the kid. You can see it even hurt her if you fail the save lol. Anyway I don't think people realized that was not even the only attempt to steal the idol either. You even have the option to do it yourself if you talk to a specific ncp tiefling.

Last edited by Aishaddai; 17/11/20 03:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
I know Silvanus is all about "wild nature" in his portfolio which covers quite a bit more than just plants and it's also why he as a god is quite a bit stronger than most. It includes wild magic that occurs naturally, for example, which is why Haslin is all over the place. Devils are naturally lawful most of the time but more importantly those tieflings in the grove do try to take everything with no concern for nature. They are a thieves guild in disguise. Their main goal was to steal the idol and fence it as well as spy. They are not good in the slightest. They have been gathering info and stealing anything valuable on the way to the city. They stay in baldurs gate because they are already in someones pocket. Think about it. Cazador is after vamp boy, nightsong activity, hag deals, Minratha betraying lloth, the absolute activity and secrets, etc. All can be sold including us being tadpole hosts. The idol business was just a bread crumb to lead you to hints about what they really represent.
Ok Kagha.

Jokes aside though, I don't think the game conveys this very well. There are certainly hints hidden deep in the files (Zevlor has a line where he outright admits being a spy for the Absolute) but unless the Tiefling story 180's on us in Act II and beyond, you are 100% led to believe that they are pure good and the druids are nearly pure evil.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
I know Silvanus is all about "wild nature" in his portfolio which covers quite a bit more than just plants and it's also why he as a god is quite a bit stronger than most. It includes wild magic that occurs naturally, for example, which is why Haslin is all over the place. Devils are naturally lawful most of the time but more importantly those tieflings in the grove do try to take everything with no concern for nature. They are a thieves guild in disguise. Their main goal was to steal the idol and fence it as well as spy. They are not good in the slightest. They have been gathering info and stealing anything valuable on the way to the city. They stay in baldurs gate because they are already in someones pocket. Think about it. Cazador is after vamp boy, nightsong activity, hag deals, Minratha betraying lloth, the absolute activity and secrets, etc. All can be sold including us being tadpole hosts. The idol business was just a bread crumb to lead you to hints about what they really represent.
Ok Kagha.

Jokes aside though, I don't think the game conveys this very well. There are certainly hints hidden deep in the files (Zevlor has a line where he outright admits being a spy for the Absolute) but unless the Tiefling story 180's on us in Act II and beyond, you are 100% led to believe that they are pure good and the druids are nearly pure evil.


I just put an edit. If you want I can link a video of the tieflings letting it slip that they are theives guild. It's on youtube. Sorry man you bought the con.

Last edited by Aishaddai; 17/11/20 04:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
I just put an edit. If you want I can link a video of the tieflings letting it slip that they are theives guild. It's on youtube. Sorry man you bought the con.
That's just Mol. Not literally every single Tiefling is part of her thieves' guild to be. Mol is a child.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
I just put an edit. If you want I can link a video of the tieflings letting it slip that they are theives guild. It's on youtube. Sorry man you bought the con.
That's just Mol. Not literally every single Tiefling is part of her thieves' guild to be. Mol is a child.


No man it's a down play lol. The child wants to be the leader to show up adults in the guild. They never give straight answers because...Theives guild. Hell in 5e you can't speak about it outside without a rogue feature. No worries though just wait till release lol. I'm suprised that you hold so tightly to this "tieflings are good, druids are bad" thing depite evidence in the game and datamine. Even by alignments how you see them don't make sense depite wotc protest to alignments mind you. Not sure what you want so I can't help. Sorry.

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While "subvert expectations" can be annoying and overdone, the Tieflings would be an interesting case. Just when the Druids and even Shadowheart feel that helping them was a good idea a major part of them turn out to work for an evil entity.
The Zevlor line makes no sense. Minthara wouldn't need the player if Zevlor opens the Gate
Edit: Maybe it does make sense if he competes with her for the absolutes favour. I still think that their different approaches are unlikely to be both appreciated equally. Psionic leadership does not prevent divergent goals

Last edited by ArmouredHedgehog; 17/11/20 06:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
While "subvert expectations" can be annoying and overdone, the Tieflings would be an interesting case. Just when the Druids and even Shadowheart feel that helping them was a good idea a major part of them turn out to work for an evil entity.
The Zevlor line makes no sense. Minthara wouldn't need the player if Zevlor opens the Gate


The lines says that Zevlor wants to deliver the tielfings to Moonrise Towers in exchange of being made a True Soul. Minthara wants them dead.

Zevlor needs the goblins/Minthara removed to achieved his goal for the Absolute. Minthara doesn't want more competition.

There are some ambient dialogues in the temple that suggest the goblins/Minthara aren't in the best of terms with the leaders at Moonrise Towers too.

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Look, like ArmouredHedgehog says the "subverted expectations" trope is annoying and overdone. Aishaddai makes it seem like I (and everyone else I have talked to on this forum) is missing some glaringly obvious clues that Zevlor is evil and the Tieflings in general are a thieves' guild in disguise. I just don't buy that. It's much more likely their contact in Baldur's Gate is the thieves' guild and they have a deal with them to be accomodated there as some kind of "nescessary evil" trope. If Zevlor and the Tieflings are all evil then everyone is. And I mean everyone. Not to mention Zevlor throws Alfira, the soul coin lady and a bunch of other named Tiefling NPC's with story arcs to be resolved in Act 2 - 3 under the bus.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
While "subvert expectations" can be annoying and overdone, the Tieflings would be an interesting case. Just when the Druids and even Shadowheart feel that helping them was a good idea a major part of them turn out to work for an evil entity.
The Zevlor line makes no sense. Minthara wouldn't need the player if Zevlor opens the Gate


The lines says that Zevlor wants to deliver the tielfings to Moonrise Towers in exchange of being made a True Soul. Minthara wants them dead.

Zevlor needs the goblins/Minthara removed to achieved his goal for the Absolute. Minthara doesn't want more competition.

There are some ambient dialogues in the temple that suggest the goblins/Minthara aren't in the best of terms with the leaders at Moonrise Towers too.



Keep in mind though we dont know what from the datmines will make the cut to the final version

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Look, like ArmouredHedgehog says the "subverted expectations" trope is annoying and overdone. Aishaddai makes it seem like I (and everyone else I have talked to on this forum) is missing some glaringly obvious clues that Zevlor is evil and the Tieflings in general are a thieves' guild in disguise. I just don't buy that. It's much more likely their contact in Baldur's Gate is the thieves' guild and they have a deal with them to be accomodated there as some kind of "nescessary evil" trope. If Zevlor and the Tieflings are all evil then everyone is. And I mean everyone. Not to mention Zevlor throws Alfira, the soul coin lady and a bunch of other named Tiefling NPC's with story arcs to be resolved in Act 2 - 3 under the bus.


Slow down I said there is evidence that hints that they are all a part of the thieves guild. I made no mention of who is evil and who is not. Haslin is 100 percent in line with Silvanus almost down to a T really. Kahga was lawful neutral but slowly turned lawful evil by shadow druids, but you can slap her back to lawful neutral and she turns herself in to Silvanus. The tieflings are a mix between true neutral and chaotic neutral. None of them are chaotic good or especially lawful good. No one in the theives guild will drop everything and tell you straight up what they are. If they did they would be killed.

It makes sense that its a kid who let it slip rather than an adult. If anything the kid will put you in contact with higher members in the city but will get in trouble for it. Of course their is always the chance I'm wrong so grain of salt and all that. Goblins are chaotic evil so everything looks good compared to them.

I think that tiefling bards charm spell scrambled your brain lol. I joke though its fun to debate the future. Now I'm eager for the next update.

Edit: The datamine may prove me wrong after all. Oh well.

Last edited by Aishaddai; 17/11/20 06:50 PM.
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This is really topic for another thread and will probably need to continued elsewhere but FWIW I don't have a problem with Khaga and I really like the refugee / closed borders story of the grove. I'm hoping the Zevlor stuff is an abandoned story line.

I never commented on the Khaga thread because I have no problem with minor tweaks as long as the theme stays intact.

Again, I've not been following the conversation in the Khaga thread but to comment on D&D lore -- true neutral is one of the those alignments that causes people trouble because few read the fantasy novels that gave rise to it. True neutral for Gygax was a combination of Tanelorn from the Moorcock novels and the adventures of Fafhrd and Grey Mauser. Mauser was greedy, lazy, overly fond of drink and easily seduced by power. He took on adventures to get enough gold to get drunk or because his patron made him go adventuring. Classic 'neutral' grey character. The people of Tanelorn know that neither the lords of Law or Chaos should triumph and hope to keep outside their struggle. The best 5th edition source for 'neutral' comes from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foe where the mage stresses the need ensure that neither side wins the blood war and comments on events that could tip the balance one way or other. The (chaotic neutral) Mordenkainen binds demons and makes deals with devils but is mindful not to so in a way shifts the balance to one side or the other; if one side wins the blood war the multiverse itself will fall. Druids are that but with a layer or natural balance on top. If gnolls take over the sword coast this would upset the natural balance as an apex predator eliminates all forms of life. On the other hand if adventurers eliminate all gnolls and makes the roads safe for all then commerce flows, new settlements are built and nature gives way to the forces of civilization.

Now 3rd edition confused everyone by making neutral the default option for most people. The good folk of Faerun pray to Beshaba to avoid her evil eye and follow it up with prayer to Tymora bring them good luck. So neutral is -- confusingly -- all of the above.

Khaga is acting like a mother serpent -- protecting her brood and striking at anyone who threatens the safety of her charges. True neutral falls into neutral evil. No one really knows who is behind the Shadow Druids. The chances are that the shadow druids aren't actually praying to Silvanus but instead to Shar and/or Malar -- one of those gods is posing as Silvanus.

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Let's move the Kagha discussion to my other thread.

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Originally Posted by Chubblot


OMG. I cannot unsee this. Where is the brain bleach? Keep the cyanide close in case that doesn't work!

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Originally Posted by RPGCODEX
There's three more unused origins in the files, no idea if they'll end up used or not. I think they meant to remove all references to them in the EA build but missed a file.
referred to as
Origin_TheKid
Origin_RedWizard
Origin_Sylvira

Sylvira is a rather important character from descent into avernus btw

These are unrelated to Karlach, Minsc, or Helia(AKA Den leader) btw

oh and there's one referred to as ORIGIN8, but it could be any of the above
Does anyone have any info on this? "The Kid" seems to be the Bhaalspawn's child and Sylvira is probably Sylvira Savikas but I have no idea who the "Red Wizard" could be.

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Yeeees bhaalspawn is back bitches cool fuck Abdel

Last edited by Abits; 18/11/20 09:17 AM.

Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by RPGCODEX
There's three more unused origins in the files, no idea if they'll end up used or not. I think they meant to remove all references to them in the EA build but missed a file.
referred to as
Origin_TheKid
Origin_RedWizard
Origin_Sylvira

Sylvira is a rather important character from descent into avernus btw

These are unrelated to Karlach, Minsc, or Helia(AKA Den leader) btw

oh and there's one referred to as ORIGIN8, but it could be any of the above
Does anyone have any info on this? "The Kid" seems to be the Bhaalspawn's child and Sylvira is probably Sylvira Savikas but I have no idea who the "Red Wizard" could be.

Edwin?

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