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#718337 27/10/20 04:20 AM
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I was reading the Oct. 16 Gamasutra interview with Nick Pechenin a design lead at Larian, where he seemed to say that if a significant portion of players were save scumming they might make it easier to do so, or even fudge rolls in their favor.

As an inveterate scummer myself I would just like to say that save scumming isn't always about getting the 'best' result, it's about getting every result. Especially in the Early Access where I'm trying to tease apart everything they've given us, i've done plenty of reloads in order to see what a failed roll looks like.

Considering I hope to be playing through BG:3 multiple times after it's released, please don't change one of the more compelling aspects of the story telling, the impartial, uncaring, and mathematically remote arbiter of fate: the d20

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I think that may just be handled by the difficulty selected in game like it was in BG1&2 as well as D:OS2. Basically making DC thresholds lower or something.

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making it 'easier' wont prevent savescumming unless you make it so easy you can get your desired outcome every time.
The way to reduce savescumming is not to make an easier game its to make a game where its harder to savescum.

One way to do this is a save mode where there is only one save and the game saves to it constantly after any action. Games with this can still be savescummed with backup save swapping or, depending on how they save, alt-f4ing and reloading. But these things take time and are an inconvenience to the player, and thus any time a player may want to save scum they must measure if its worth it or not to go through that hassle, thus reducing the practice.

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What one person does in their game does not hurt anyone else, unless they dumb it down even more to prevent savescumming. Perhaps there should be an easy mode for those types so they don't have to do it so much, then a regular mode, then one with only autosave which prevents the behaviour altogether. Or just ignore this savescumming entirely and not change anything, some will do it and some will not.

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Originally Posted by Katj
making it 'easier' wont prevent savescumming unless you make it so easy you can get your desired outcome every time.
The way to reduce savescumming is not to make an easier game its to make a game where its harder to savescum.

One way to do this is a save mode where there is only one save and the game saves to it constantly after any action. Games with this can still be savescummed with backup save swapping or, depending on how they save, alt-f4ing and reloading. But these things take time and are an inconvenience to the player, and thus any time a player may want to save scum they must measure if its worth it or not to go through that hassle, thus reducing the practice.

Wait; i think you're missing the point. Who wants to prevent save scumming? If you don't want to do it then don't do it. For example; How does my save scumming impact your game play or enjoyment of the game?

if the option is too much for you then good news; Larian is likely to add something like this based on previous titles:
[Linked Image]

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Punishing players by not letting them save the game is just that, punishing. Not everyone wants an Ironman and the old games were practically designed with Quick save in mind. It should be handled in a difficulty setting. There's no reason I can see to try to eliminate savescumming for those that like to play that way.

Camping is similar, If they really want players not to rest so much, they should add more quests that say "you have until sunrise" or just include more areas where its not safe to rest.

Similarly If they want to cut down on reloads they should allow players to cancel or backtrack a convo, especially one with serious branching, or provide more obvious save points before critical convo junctures. At least in story mode. Choose your own adventure books would have been pretty lame if you couldn't "reload" from the last page you were reading, after getting killed by ninjas or whatever following a bum path in the page turner.

Right now the saved games in the cloud feel pretty disorganized. I'd almost pine for a single saved game, but I'm sure I'd regret it after failing an intimidation roll or whatever and getting into an impossible fight immediately lol

I'm like the OP, generally more interested in seeing the options rather than just getting a best result. Used to saving constantly and if a combat doesn't need to be reloaded at least twice it probably wasn't very entertaining hehe

Last edited by Black_Elk; 27/10/20 09:12 AM.
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the only reason i don't play honor mode is because how many times in the past we had a corrupt save or i had some one in my group mess up an aoe

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Are people that infantile that they cannot resist the urge to reload, and that infantile to even care that others do that???
Whats next?
The game punishes you for stopping playing?
Prevents you to start a new game?
Insults you and lies in your Twitter account?

I cant believe we have come to that point that total strangers actually complain on the way you play your own games, and demand gameplay changes for that.
I can now confirm this. Gaming in the 90s WAS THE BEST.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 27/10/20 09:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by Popsculpture

If you don't want to do it then don't do it.]

All is interconnected, if you are allowed to do it, even if i didnt do it, it would effect the game i have to play through the different general feedback character that players doing leave and how that guides future game. You aught to just forget about the idea of single player games, they dont exist so long as they are still being updated.

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honor mode

hardcore modes are not the same thing as regular monosave. monosave forces you to live with your decisions and the outcomes of things apart from complete failure, where it lets you load back to where before you wiped out to continue the game. It prevents you from simply rerolling and getting optimal results, but it acts as a normal game where if you die you try again.

Last edited by Katj; 27/10/20 10:44 AM.
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I mean this is not affecting majority and most people wont do it. But it does not change the fact that this dialog rolling thing is broken. With maxed character charisma(18 for some, 15 - 16 for others) and proficiencies, rolls you do still have a decent chance to not roll even 3 or 4. That's ridiculous. Failure is an option, but sometimes it makes no sense at all. Or like with moving blockage in burning building. If you are strong enough you have a chance to move it. Seriously? If you have max strength(17-18) you still need to roll 10 and let me tell you that fails quite often. So your dumb but strong guy cant move some stuff away because of roll, but moving 40 kg barrel nearby is no sweat.

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Originally Posted by Popsculpture

Wait; i think you're missing the point. Who wants to prevent save scumming? If you don't want to do it then don't do it. For example; How does my save scumming impact your game play or enjoyment of the game?

if the option is too much for you then good news; Larian is likely to add something like this based on previous titles:
[Linked Image]


What is this smart AI in Tactician mode? That sounds good.

Originally Posted by Katj

All is interconnected, if you are allowed to do it, even if i didnt do it, it would effect the game i have to play through the different general feedback character that players doing leave and how that guides future game. You aught to just forget about the idea of single player games, they dont exist so long as they are still being updated.


Please tell me this is sarcasm. If they dumb this game down any more because people can't handle failing a roll then the human race is more doomed than it already is. Too many games have been ruined because the wuss locusts have descended on them and torn out anything interesting.

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Originally Posted by Popsculpture
If you don't want to do it then don't do it.


With this argument you can give a characters unlimited movement and attacks per turn and say if it's too strong for your liking just don't use it. I can indeed be self-disciplined but I want to play against the game and not against myself most of the time. But everything can be handled quite easily through more game modes and difficulties so I hope we will see options for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Udon
I mean this is not affecting majority and most people wont do it. But it does not change the fact that this dialog rolling thing is broken. With maxed character charisma(18 for some, 15 - 16 for others) and proficiencies, rolls you do still have a decent chance to not roll even 3 or 4. That's ridiculous. Failure is an option, but sometimes it makes no sense at all. Or like with moving blockage in burning building. If you are strong enough you have a chance to move it. Seriously? If you have max strength(17-18) you still need to roll 10 and let me tell you that fails quite often. So your dumb but strong guy cant move some stuff away because of roll, but moving 40 kg barrel nearby is no sweat.

In DnD rules there is something like checks without rolls. Rule of thumb is a d20 roll happens everytime when you need to know the outcome while being in time pressure, distracted or in stresfull situations (checks in dialogues are often like that). If you have time, you can just choose to take 10 as your roll. This is useful for many routine tasks with low or moderate DC. You could even take 20 as a roll if you have plenty of time and there is no negative outcome for failing. In other words, you eventually will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times.
So If you have few seconds for saving a men in house on fire, the roll does make sense. And even as a STR character you can fail, which also make a sense. But if you have time for a check, the game should just take 10 or 20.

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The one save only ironman tactical mode will be in. I am pretty sure of that.

But it's good we can save scum in EA for testing purposes. If not, it would mean we would have the start a new campaign each time we want to try different dialogue outcomes. It would be such a pain honestly.

Last edited by Nyanko; 27/10/20 11:41 AM.
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Please no dice fudging because people wants to manipulate outcomes instead of dealing with what they got.

Let them reload their saves all their want.

Except for combat on the easy difficulty, fudge all you want there.

Last edited by azarhal; 27/10/20 11:44 AM.
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The fix for save scumming is add an always win toggle. That’s the game I always wanted to play! Keep on rocking, Larian!!!!!

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I remember there was button to Roll Again after failed roll in few dialogues. I think this could work on Story mode. I would let e.g. three re-rolls and I believe most of the story-players will live with the final outcome of this.

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I found out two surprising things about save scumming very early in the game (others probably found it before me, so if this isn't news to anyone, my apologies).

If you save scum the first roll in the game (the investigation check for the tadpoles pool in the nautiloid room in which you spawn), after loading the pool will almost immediately explode, and you have to be extremely quick to interact with it before that.

If you reload the game in the second room in the nautiloid (the one where you can meet "Us") a healing potion appears on the floor, which wasn't there before the reload.

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Please no dice fudging because people wants to manipulate outcomes instead of dealing with what they got.

Let them reload their saves all their want.

Except for combat on the easy difficulty, fudge all you want there.


Even as an avid save scummer myself I strongly agree with this. Don't dumb the game down because my perfectionist self cannot shrug and carry on with the consequences.
That's my problem and my problem alone. Yeah I'm trying to reduce it (also failing most of the time).

But also please don't stick your noses in when, why and how many times I reload MY saves.

Live and let live I say.

Also no I don't want to play on "easy" or "story" or whatever mode that would also affect combat difficulty as the two are completely unrelated.

Last edited by Azarielle; 27/10/20 01:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Are people that infantile that they cannot resist the urge to reload, and that infantile to even care that others do that???
Whats next?
The game punishes you for stopping playing?
Prevents you to start a new game?
Insults you and lies in your Twitter account?

I cant believe we have come to that point that total strangers actually complain on the way you play your own games, and demand gameplay changes for that.
I can now confirm this. Gaming in the 90s WAS THE BEST.

I hate when games start lying about me on my Twitter account...

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