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Well in EA I am currently save scumming to try to break the game/see what my options were/fights were hard until you figured them out.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I was reading the Oct. 16 Gamasutra interview with Nick Pechenin a design lead at Larian, where he seemed to say that if a significant portion of players were save scumming they might make it easier to do so, or even fudge rolls in their favor.

As an inveterate scummer myself I would just like to say that save scumming isn't always about getting the 'best' result, it's about getting every result. Especially in the Early Access where I'm trying to tease apart everything they've given us, i've done plenty of reloads in order to see what a failed roll looks like.

Considering I hope to be playing through BG:3 multiple times after it's released, please don't change one of the more compelling aspects of the story telling, the impartial, uncaring, and mathematically remote arbiter of fate: the d20

Hold up.
*licks lips*
You're telling me...
*rubs hands together excitedly*
The Larian officially endorses save scumming

Lmao. What a company.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sozz
I was reading the Oct. 16 Gamasutra interview with Nick Pechenin a design lead at Larian, where he seemed to say that if a significant portion of players were save scumming they might make it easier to do so, or even fudge rolls in their favor.

As an inveterate scummer myself I would just like to say that save scumming isn't always about getting the 'best' result, it's about getting every result. Especially in the Early Access where I'm trying to tease apart everything they've given us, i've done plenty of reloads in order to see what a failed roll looks like.

Considering I hope to be playing through BG:3 multiple times after it's released, please don't change one of the more compelling aspects of the story telling, the impartial, uncaring, and mathematically remote arbiter of fate: the d20

Hold up.
*licks lips*
You're telling me...
*rubs hands together excitedly*
The Larian officially endorses save scumming

Lmao. What a company.

This is hilarious. You are, of course, aware that "Save Early, Save Often, Save Before, and Save After" has been a thing since, wait for it, the original Baldur's Gate? It might have even been a loading screen tip. The horror of a game developer wanting players to enjoy their games, am I right? It's like they honestly believe that if players are having fun playing their game, they might tell their friends about it, and then their friends might buy it too. What a preposterous notion, right?

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The thing I am confused about.. is why any of you care the way others play the game. I for one don't use barrelmancy but those who do... its the way they want to play.

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
....There's no reason I can see to try to eliminate savescumming for those that like to play that way.

Camping is similar, If they really want players not to rest so much, they should add more quests that say "you have until sunrise" or just include more areas where its not safe to rest. ...

I'm like the OP, generally more interested in seeing the options rather than just getting a best result. Used to saving constantly and if a combat doesn't need to be reloaded at least twice it probably wasn't very entertaining hehe


I especially agree with your point on camping, currently the pacing in the game hinges on something very idiosyncratic to people's play style. My first run in the EA I treated the ticking clock of ceremorphosis seriously and didn't do a long rest for as long as possible, which really screwed with more than a few of the camp triggers.

Originally Posted by Mezbarrena
Well in EA I am currently save scumming to try to break the game/see what my options were/fights were hard until you figured them out.


That's very much been my philosophy with the EA, trying weird or counter-intuitive things to see how well the world reacts to it. Which of course means playing through scenarios multiple ways.


I have something of a protocol when it comes to playing RPGs like this,
Phase I: clean playthrough, don't fudge (many) rolls, play like your character isn't a timelord. .

Phase II: having played through the game a few times that way, now try to break the game, hack the game to see how it reacts to scenarios that wouldn't be possible, like killing the devils in the tutorial, or solving quests with foreknowledge of what will occur, like I did when I entered the Hag's lair through the back door.

by the time Phase II is completed the modding community is usually in gear which is what Phase III is.

I like these games because they work on all these levels and with enough time you can really suck the marrow from them, which sometimes involves a little hacking, that's just me.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sozz
I was reading the Oct. 16 Gamasutra interview with Nick Pechenin a design lead at Larian, where he seemed to say that if a significant portion of players were save scumming they might make it easier to do so, or even fudge rolls in their favor.

As an inveterate scummer myself I would just like to say that save scumming isn't always about getting the 'best' result, it's about getting every result. Especially in the Early Access where I'm trying to tease apart everything they've given us, i've done plenty of reloads in order to see what a failed roll looks like.

Considering I hope to be playing through BG:3 multiple times after it's released, please don't change one of the more compelling aspects of the story telling, the impartial, uncaring, and mathematically remote arbiter of fate: the d20

Hold up.
*licks lips*
You're telling me...
*rubs hands together excitedly*
The Larian officially endorses save scumming

Lmao. What a company.

This is hilarious. You are, of course, aware that "Save Early, Save Often, Save Before, and Save After" has been a thing since, wait for it, the original Baldur's Gate? It might have even been a loading screen tip. The horror of a game developer wanting players to enjoy their games, am I right? It's like they honestly believe that if players are having fun playing their game, they might tell their friends about it, and then their friends might buy it too. What a preposterous notion, right?

Lmao of course captain savescum will defend this. Still waiting for the homework on plot points vs plot line and why characterization is not a negligible feature of any story btw. I'm going to have to see that homework before I entertain you on anything else FYI otherwise you're just going to run away the minute the sources and facts rear their ugly heads.

I couldn't care less what you do with your game. This is, however, a narrative heavy RPG game and the developer endorsing something like save scumming let's me know just how important the narrative through line and immersion are from their perspective. You can see this sentiment mirrored every other time we've discussed savescumming where I tell people who cares, honor mode is a thing for Larian. There is a big difference between a child saying "I should have candy whenever I want" and their parents saying "They should have candy whenever they want".


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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I know that I might be a bit extreme here but I'd say: live with the consequences of the choices you've made.
Lots of people in this forum talk about how this game is nice because of how similar it is to DnD. Let me ask you, does your dungeon master make you reroll dices or magically roll back in time so that you can choose differently? Higly doubt that...in my opinion it''s as bad as cheating.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sozz
I was reading the Oct. 16 Gamasutra interview with Nick Pechenin a design lead at Larian, where he seemed to say that if a significant portion of players were save scumming they might make it easier to do so, or even fudge rolls in their favor.

As an inveterate scummer myself I would just like to say that save scumming isn't always about getting the 'best' result, it's about getting every result. Especially in the Early Access where I'm trying to tease apart everything they've given us, i've done plenty of reloads in order to see what a failed roll looks like.

Considering I hope to be playing through BG:3 multiple times after it's released, please don't change one of the more compelling aspects of the story telling, the impartial, uncaring, and mathematically remote arbiter of fate: the d20

Hold up.
*licks lips*
You're telling me...
*rubs hands together excitedly*
The Larian officially endorses save scumming

Lmao. What a company.

This is hilarious. You are, of course, aware that "Save Early, Save Often, Save Before, and Save After" has been a thing since, wait for it, the original Baldur's Gate? It might have even been a loading screen tip. The horror of a game developer wanting players to enjoy their games, am I right? It's like they honestly believe that if players are having fun playing their game, they might tell their friends about it, and then their friends might buy it too. What a preposterous notion, right?

Lmao of course captain savescum will defend this. Still waiting for the homework on plot points vs plot line and why characterization is not a negligible feature of any story btw. I'm going to have to see that homework before I entertain you on anything else FYI otherwise you're just going to run away the minute the sources and facts rear their ugly heads.

I couldn't care less what you do with your game. This is, however, a narrative heavy RPG game and the developer endorsing something like save scumming let's me know just how important the narrative through line and immersion are from their perspective. You can see this sentiment mirrored every other time we've discussed savescumming where I tell people who cares, honor mode is a thing for Larian. There is a big difference between a child saying "I should have candy whenever I want" and their parents saying "They should have candy whenever they want".



Except we're mostly adults (some of us even parents) here and we can indeed have the candy whenever the f**** we want.
I don't know about you, but I just don't have enough time on my hands to wait till 34th playthrough to discover WTF happens, if you successfully persuade Kagha.
And I see enough tragedy IRL to not have to accept kids dying in my free time as well TYVM.

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@Azarielle
And how would that diet impact your health? Surely you must really care for your health and wellbeing if you eat candy 5-6 times a day right.
As for having time I mean I could help you with scheduling and time management and explain the scientific proven benefits of long term vs short term dopamine release and so on but that's up to you. If you are so starved for time perhaps you shouldn't be investing your free time in video games?
I also don't know about the kids dying thing. I'm talking about save scumming and what a developer endorsing something like save scumming tells about their design philosophy.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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you guys can fight all you want but please don't torture metaphors in my thread.

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@Sozz
But we like torturing metaphors and Larian wants to give us what we want :O


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Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Azarielle
And how would that diet impact your health? Surely you must really care for your health and wellbeing if you eat candy 5-6 times a day right.
As for having time I mean I could help you with scheduling and time management and explain the scientific proven benefits of long term vs short term dopamine release and so on but that's up to you. If you are so starved for time perhaps you shouldn't be investing your free time in video games?
I also don't know about the kids dying thing. I'm talking about save scumming and what a developer endorsing something like save scumming tells about their design philosophy.


Hey you sound almost pleasant in this one - that's a first!
I'd actually be very interested in having a personalized schedule of juggling a demanding job, 2 small children, scientific research, all the usual house chores and gaming (yes right now due to some special circumstances I've got more free time than I've had in a decade).
With the little free time I do have, I believe I'm entitled to play games however I see fit save scumming or not. Kids dying obviously refers to Arabella - that outcome for me is quite difficult to accept due to being a mother and having to deal with dishing out bad news to strangers on daily basis. And if you're now gonna suggest I play farming simulators instead I might resort to bad words and name calling just so you know.

As roberthebard said there was a loading screen in BG2 that practically established save scumming, along with the legendary "While your character doesn't have to eat, remember that you do, we don't want to lose any dedicated players".

I think the majority of people here agreed that we do not want (our) save scumming habits to influence dice rolls in any way (who knows maybe when I'm retired I'll want to do an "honor" mode playthrough), on the other side my reloading habits do not affect your immersion and whatnot in any way - can we just leave it at that?

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Save-scumming in my case is because I don't completely trust technology for the most part. It's nice and I definitely want it and more of it because it makes life easier, but when it fails, it can be annoying. And if I have a crash in the middle of a boss fight, I'd rather start up from the round before the crash instead of do the whole thing over again.

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Originally Posted by LazyFerret
I know that I might be a bit extreme here but I'd say: live with the consequences of the choices you've made.
Lots of people in this forum talk about how this game is nice because of how similar it is to DnD. Let me ask you, does your dungeon master make you reroll dices or magically roll back in time so that you can choose differently? Higly doubt that...in my opinion it''s as bad as cheating.


Going by some players D&D experience written around the forum to explain why X or Y should be done differently in the game, it looks like many GMs let their players do whatever they want.


But that doesn't really have anything to do with savecumming. And I personally don't mind if others cheat in their singleplayer/lan-coop version of the game. I just don't want the developers to start fudging the dices because some people can't live without every actions saying success.

Last edited by azarhal; 27/10/20 06:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by LazyFerret
I know that I might be a bit extreme here but I'd say: live with the consequences of the choices you've made.
Lots of people in this forum talk about how this game is nice because of how similar it is to DnD. Let me ask you, does your dungeon master make you reroll dices or magically roll back in time so that you can choose differently? Higly doubt that...in my opinion it''s as bad as cheating.


Going by some players D&D experience written around the forum to explain why X or Y should be done differently in the game, it looks like many GMs let their players do whatever they want.


But that doesn't really have anything to do with savecumming. And I personally don't mind if others cheat in their singleplayer/lan-coop version of the game. I just don't want the developers to start fudging the dices because some people can't live without every actions saying success.


Save-scumming is a personal decision whether you do it to guard against tech-failure or because you really have intense disagreement with the design of an encounter, it doesn't matter.

But I really don't want the digital die rolls to be fudged.

I mean, it's silly to compare this to a D&D tabletop campaign anyway. Some of us might do Ironman where if we hit a TPK we start over from the beginning of the campaign with a new character. But that's not how things work in a TTRPG. We'd just stop that campaign, likely, maybe we'd make all new characters but they'd have entirely different backstories and enter the world as the previous dead party left it. And I seriously doubt anybody is going to just never play the game again because they died once in one run through.

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People can do whatever they want when they play. If Larian wants to make save scumming less of a thing, they should improve the dialogue, specifically making it less of a zero sum game.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Yeah, save scumming is a personal choice. Don't think Larian should make difficulty changes soley to counter save scumming. Even though I scum a bit, I'd be down for an iron man mode, even more so if there's a way for you to reload your last save after a wipe. Just enough autosaving your one save to prevent scumming the dialogue.

Now I could see them making changes to encouters if they see a lot of wipes and scums in the same area. I'll reload if I know I'm going to lose, so sometimes a scum might be an indicator of a wipe and maybe this area was harder than the devs intended.

Another thing could be dealing with Arabella. Maybe they'll rethink a DC20 check on that or add in more options, medicine check to save her, animal handling the snake, etc. I know I did a lot of scumming there.

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Originally Posted by Udon
I mean this is not affecting majority and most people wont do it. But it does not change the fact that this dialog rolling thing is broken. With maxed character charisma(18 for some, 15 - 16 for others) and proficiencies, rolls you do still have a decent chance to not roll even 3 or 4. That's ridiculous. Failure is an option, but sometimes it makes no sense at all. Or like with moving blockage in burning building. If you are strong enough you have a chance to move it. Seriously? If you have max strength(17-18) you still need to roll 10 and let me tell you that fails quite often. So your dumb but strong guy cant move some stuff away because of roll, but moving 40 kg barrel nearby is no sweat.


However even if you fail the roll . . . you can still attack and destroy the beam the guy is pinned under and free him that way . . . Larian has done a great job of providing out of the box solutions. And if he still dies . . . well then its a tragic side event that adds weight to the story!

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Originally Posted by HustleCat
Another thing could be dealing with Arabella. Maybe they'll rethink a DC20 check on that or add in more options, medicine check to save her, animal handling the snake, etc. I know I did a lot of scumming there.


Honestly its a better story if Arabella dies . . . it provides much more drama, gives you a real reason to hate Kagha (and possibly assassinate her), and adds an interesting moral dilemma later in the story.
The 'everything works out' options are often not the most impactful from a story perspective.

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Originally Posted by trengilly
Originally Posted by Udon
I mean this is not affecting majority and most people wont do it. But it does not change the fact that this dialog rolling thing is broken. With maxed character charisma(18 for some, 15 - 16 for others) and proficiencies, rolls you do still have a decent chance to not roll even 3 or 4. That's ridiculous. Failure is an option, but sometimes it makes no sense at all. Or like with moving blockage in burning building. If you are strong enough you have a chance to move it. Seriously? If you have max strength(17-18) you still need to roll 10 and let me tell you that fails quite often. So your dumb but strong guy cant move some stuff away because of roll, but moving 40 kg barrel nearby is no sweat.


However even if you fail the roll . . . you can still attack and destroy the beam the guy is pinned under and free him that way . . . Larian has done a great job of providing out of the box solutions. And if he still dies . . . well then its a tragic side event that adds weight to the story!


Attacking the beam right away is faster. I haven't bothered with doing the DC since I discovered that. Well when I want to save the guy.

What I really want to be able to do is go in that room and not burn to death in like 5 seconds. There are books/notes to read there!

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