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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
The player will still know the level and amount of hp when trying to attack. Why complicate the task?

Because it's a matter of presentation and of internal coherence. Not of "knowing" or not.

Why is a level 1 red dragon flying across the sky in Hell and why is a level 4 Red Dragon escorting the Gith patrol? What next? A level 8 Red Dragon in the next area and then a level 14 Dragon that you will actually have a chance to fight later on by the end of the game?
Is it really too much to ask for some internal consistency?

Is the point that are trying to make that everything we'll ever see will be constantly labeled in the same level range of the area we are exploring? Then what do we need these (misleading) levels for, exactly? To gratuitously break our immersion in the setting?

Last edited by Tuco; 29/10/20 04:00 AM.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
So the fight with Kaga will be impassable?

Kagha simply shouldn't be labeled an archdruid. "Acting archdruid" or "regent" at best.
Halsin as the "proper" archdruid of the area on the other hand surely shouldn't be a level 5.

Power tuning aside, in any case, the point is that the level shouldn't be a label clearly readable on characters (especially not monsters, that aren't supposed to have levels to begin with) but if we really HAVE to (because as the time goes it seems that Larian hates everything that's good design, somehow) at least that level should make sense in context.



The player will still know the level and amount of hp when trying to attack. Why complicate the task?

Not if you remove that information. That information is a relic of divinity mechanics, hence part of the problem. If they were being truly faithful to baldurs gate we would have no information on them beyond what gear we can see on their person, the hp percentage and their name.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
[quote=Bufotenina]

And no level 4 druid should ever be an "archdruid" by the very rules established by the setting and license the game is using. At best "Acting archdruid" would sell the idea better.


To be fair, archdruid is a title. Not a power level. Not every grove is going to have an 20th level druid amongst them to fill the role of Archdruid. That would be insane. Especially not such a small grove that is so far out of the way in the middle of a territory that seems to mostly deal with goblins. If the most powerful druid they have is only 4th level they aren't going to just not have an archdruid until someone levels up enough first.

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Tuco Offline OP
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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid

To be fair, archdruid is a title. Not a power level. Not every grove is going to have an 20th level druid amongst them to fill the role of Archdruid. That would be insane. Especially not such a small grove that is so far out of the way in the middle of a territory that seems to mostly deal with goblins. If the most powerful druid they have is only 4th level they aren't going to just not have an archdruid until someone levels up enough first.

Not sure if the fifth edition changed something, but in D&D it used to be that level 12 was the minimum requirement to even consider taking the role of ArchDruid.


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Originally Posted by Tuco

Not sure if the fifth edition changed something, but in D&D it used to be that level 12 was the minimum requirement to even consider taking the role of ArchDruid.


Which edition did this rule come from? It sounds like something from 2e or older.

I can't find anything about a level requirement to be considered an archdruid online.

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I dont like this detailed information being always shown without being dependent on my characters at all. Its a meta feature put there to make things easier for general mass audience convenience.
Since it was the same in DoS games and they didnt want to remove it there i doubt its going to happen and there is always enough players complaining against removing it, crying about it.

But - it could be disabled on some sort of "hard core" difficulty level, it could be an option in game options.

Even better if it was tied to character skills like Arcane knowledge and Nature lore. Discovering actual lore info in the game itself, either through discovering books and through dialogue, or by fighting a specific creature which if successful would reveal such specific info about that class of creatures. Right now our Nature skill does already serve a similar purpose in some few rare moments, such as Kuo Toa encounter, but to make it fully implemented in that way would require some deeper work by the devs.
And im pretty sure they wont do that.

As an alternative, simply removing that meta info for a specific difficulty level would be relatively easy to implement. And special early encounters should definitely not be scaled down at all.

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The shown level is probably some remnant of the Divinity engine. It doesn't correlate with monster stats from what I've seen. But seeing every goblin be level 2 or 3 undermines character progression.

The power level of creatures absolutely must make sense in the context of Forgotten Realms. No up or downscaling anything. Archdruids need to be very powerful. If you want players to be able to murder them they need to fight dirty of face them in a weakened state.

BG3 needs similar bestiary that Pillars of Eternity, Solasta and many other RPGs have. Learn more details about creatures by trial and error, with Investigation skill or from reading books. It is now the expectation and BG3 has the biggest budget so missing this feature would look rather strange. PC's having omnipotent knowledge makes the world feel less real and threatening.

And... having seen the enemy stats, most seem to have a rather even spread of mid-rangey attributes at worst, like Wis 12 on some random ogre or humanoid. Would be nice to find some low stats like Wis 6 or 8 to exploit sometimes and slam down a Hold Person that actually works.

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Its not a matter of a game engine. Its an intentional design decision.

During DoS development Larian devs seemed to fail for a specific type of players that are best described as crying and throwing hissy fits quite often and those decisions are the result of it. Its a whole industry problem.
Although it doesnt have anything to do with how successful any game turns out to be.

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The Party we need when attacking the Kagha now: Laezel, Shadow Heart, Astarion, MC
The Party we need after the update:
[Linked Image]

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You arnt even supposed to target the dragon....

And cant fight it without massive cheese

Kagha isn't a true arch druid, she just usurped Halsin's title, even Halsin clearly is only archdruid in title only.

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Originally Posted by Surface R
Its not a matter of a game engine. Its an intentional design decision.

During DoS development Larian devs seemed to fail for a specific type of players that are best described as crying and throwing hissy fits quite often and those decisions are the result of it. Its a whole industry problem.
Although it doesnt have anything to do with how successful any game turns out to be.



Oh great, that means we are getting Real Time with Pause, and more or less just a graphical resin of BG1and2 by the end of Early Access.

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
You arnt even supposed to target the dragon....

Who gives a shit? That's not the point.
The point is that we already have two red dragons in the game so far respectively flagged as a level 1 and level 4 one. And we'll possibly have more at different level tiers across the game if someone doesn't stress to Larian that it feels... inappropriate.

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Kagha isn't a true arch druid, she just usurped Halsin's title, even Halsin clearly is only archdruid in title only.

"Clearly" because it's a convenient excuse, but making excuses doesn't help anyone to make the game better.
Will this end up like DOS 2, with level tags "railroading" players across the entire game? We'll see even rabbits and mice become "level 12" by the late game?

It's honestly weird that people defend this crap as some sort of unavoidable necessity of videogames, when no D&D-based game never felt the need for this type of immersion-breaking visual cue before.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
You arnt even supposed to target the dragon....

Who gives a shit? That's not the point.
The point is that we already have two red dragons in the game so far respectively flagged as a level 1 and level 4 one. And we'll possibly have more at different level tiers across the game if someone doesn't stress to Larian that it feels... inappropriate.

Quote
Kagha isn't a true arch druid, she just usurped Halsin's title, even Halsin clearly is only archdruid in title only.

"Clearly" because it's a convenient excuse, but making excuses doesn't help anyone to make the game better.
Will this end up like DOS 2, with level tags "railroading" players across the entire game? We'll see even rabbits and mice become "level 12" by the late game?

It's honestly weird that people defend this crap as some sort of unavoidable necessity of videogames, when no D&D-based game never felt the need for this type of immersion-breaking visual cue before.


Dude... you arnt even supposed to target them, there levels dont even matter...

Halsin was captured by a band of, granted absolute buffed, goblins hes not a fully fledged arch druid not even close.

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Dude... you arnt even supposed to target them, there levels dont even matter...

Except it does, PRECISELY because it's there.
If "level tags" for Larian are a fanciful misleading addition for the sake of it, it makes their existence even more inappropriate in terms of vibe, presentation and immersion.


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Halsin was captured by a band of, granted absolute buffed, goblins hes not a fully fledged arch druid not even close.

But the game doesn't tell us that Halsin is stronger but crippled by the context.
It tells us he's a level five and if anything when he joins us his fighting capabilities are even subpar for the the expectations this would set.
Hell, the poor Christ can literally die after you freed him and he's "going back to the grove" because he turns into a mouse with 1 HP or so, walks on a fire surface and *PUFF*: here's a druid corpse and a failed quest.

Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 08:01 AM.

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I understand why they did this and I'm not a fan of this either. I would say having an option to hide those levels would be good indeed.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Dude... you arnt even supposed to target them, there levels dont even matter...

Except it does, PRECISELY because it's there.
If "level tags" for Larian are a fanciful misleading addition for the sake of it, it makes their existence even more inappropriate in terms of vibe, presentation and immersion.


Quote
Halsin was captured by a band of, granted absolute buffed, goblins hes not a fully fledged arch druid not even close.

But the game doesn't tell us that Halsin is stronger but crippled by the context.
It tells us he's a level five and if anything when he joins us his fighting capabilities are even subpar for the the expectations this would set.
Hell, the poor Christ can literally die after you freed him and he's "going back to the grove" because he turns into a mouse with 1 HP or so, walks on a fire surface and *PUFF*: here's a druid corpse and a failed quest.


But again you arnt even supposed to see those level tages, you only do if you cheese it. and if were talking about immersion levels should be hidden entirely.

He wouldn't have been captured in the first place if he was stronger. Hes clearly not a powerful apex druid, especially considering how messed up the grove is. We can see from he notes he called for help but no one came, and he lie to Kagha about the tadpoles because he was afraid of the reaction, he and that entire druid circle are weak, its why the grove is soo messed up when we get there.

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I have the impression that the levels aren't doing anything at the moment. They might as well be removed.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 30/10/20 08:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

But again you arnt even supposed to see those level tages, you only do if you cheese


Oh, sure, at least if we count "clicking on it and seeing what the GAME UI CLEARLY TELLS YOU" as "cheese".
I feel like you are being petulant for the sake of it and purposefully ignoring what the problem is, frankly.
You also seem to assume we can happily ignore this because it's not a problem that will repeat itself over and over across the entire game (if not addressed immediately) which is highly unlikely.

If it's there at the beginning chances are it will be everywhere else in the game. Unless they acknowledge it now.
You know, that old argument about how problems become more costly to fix the longer you ignore them.

Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 08:40 AM.

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This issue alone really makes me question whether they ever even played dnd. Dragons are end game encounters not trash mobs

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Originally Posted by wpmaura
This issue alone really makes me question whether they ever even played dnd. Dragons are end game encounters not trash mobs


Have you ever played DnD? Dragons Endgame encounters?! Don't make me laugh.

Ancient Dragons are around CR20. Even that isn't endgame content alone. (Well maybe in BG3 if they have a level cap at around 10)

Adult Dragons are around CR15. This is something I'd pit against a party of around level 6-10.

Young Dragons are around CR10, and perfect bosses for parties of level 3-5.

Wyrmlings are around CR5 and not uncommon to encounter at lvl 1 or 2. (Even in official DnD Modules)



So no, Dragons aren't supposed to be a rare thing you only fight at the end of the game. The game is called Dungeons and DRAGONS, you are meant to encounter dragons.

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