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Originally Posted by CMF
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by CMF
Why can't it be not a pure 5e game and still be another cool Larian game but also epic journey like BG.

The journey is not the mechanics, the journey is the story and trials and tribulations to overcome and feel accomplished at the end.

This statement just shows an internal bias to find reason to not like bg3.


You just forget that everything is a whole.
The mecanics and the gameplay are the journey AND the story.



(Figured I should continue conversation here instead of editing my post after you replied to it for coherency sake as it is out of sequence)

The reason this game is called Baulder's Gate is the lore and location.

D&D player handbooks don't write the books and game stories, they create an interface for the players to interact with a world.

BG1&2 were not even 5e, so because this game isn't 5e is the invalidating feature to make it and BG game then inherently 1&2 were not BG games with that logic.

You could argue that the writing style is different and by that you feel a variance in story telling that makes it unfamiliar to you and offsetting. Like a different author picking up a book after the original stopped a series.

It could be some of the best writing ever, but because it is different that often puts fans off. Like changing an actor mid way in a movie or tv series, or as I said adapting a new writer to tell a story.

That does not make the story better or worse, but the allegiance and bonds that the previous fans had is not the same so they feel betrayed, which I think is what is impacting so many of you. Nostalgia and unfamiliarity in storytelling.

If you guys can get past that, then you may enjoy this, but no one is making you and that is your prerogative and own opinion. Just hope people understand that these are down to subjective opinions and not hardline rules that clearly make something good or bad. Because those are your standards, not a universal standard.


At the end of the day they can't because they come with the conceit that 5e is the panacea to all problems without ever examining the problems to begin with.

None of them are actually capable of going through the rigors of examining the problems Larian may or may not face and their answers devolve into "Well, that's their problem" to which it can be flipped around and rightly so.

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Originally Posted by Traycor


BG1 & BG2 used the current 2e rules at the time. That's why people want BG3 to use the current 5e rules. It also helps that 5e is way more popular by orders of magnitude than all previous editions combined.

As for your tonal comparisons, think of it like a comic book. If you pick up an issue of Batman, you expect it to look, feel, and read like a Batman book no matter who wrote it and who the artist is. The franchise has a set tone. It's not unreasonable for people who have been playing BG games for 20 years (and to a lesser extent NWN for 3e) to expect a consistency in the tone and presentation of the brand.



Good comparison with the Batman comics, there have been many adaptations of Batman and visual or tonal changes made to his character and world. Some were original hated by the fan base, while at the same time creating a new fanbase.

Also I think that saying people have been playing BG for 20 years is an over statement. How many times in the last 20 years have you played BG, how many times has it become relevant again to new players. It has been around for 20 years but not necessarily continuously played/replayed. I have many games that I cherish from 20+ years ago, like Ultima 7 Serpent's Isle. I have played and beat that game one time in my life but it was so impactful I still remember the story and it filters my opinion about games and story to this day.

Do I think games should use the same graphical style, user interface, non-rotating isometric view, real time combat and user input typing to chat to NPCs to this day? No, we have evolved gaming interfaces and created new ways of telling a story in the video game medium.

Back to 2e rules, it has been stated many times, but even BG1&2 deviated from the 2e rules to make a better translation into a video game.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
I just can't fathom what spooked them.

Yeah, me neither.

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Originally Posted by CMF
Originally Posted by Traycor


BG1 & BG2 used the current 2e rules at the time. That's why people want BG3 to use the current 5e rules. It also helps that 5e is way more popular by orders of magnitude than all previous editions combined.

As for your tonal comparisons, think of it like a comic book. If you pick up an issue of Batman, you expect it to look, feel, and read like a Batman book no matter who wrote it and who the artist is. The franchise has a set tone. It's not unreasonable for people who have been playing BG games for 20 years (and to a lesser extent NWN for 3e) to expect a consistency in the tone and presentation of the brand.



Good comparison with the Batman comics, there have been many adaptations of Batman and visual or tonal changes made to his character and world. Some were original hated by the fan base, while at the same time creating a new fanbase.

Also I think that saying people have been playing BG for 20 years is an over statement. How many times in the last 20 years have you played BG, how many times has it become relevant again to new players. It has been around for 20 years but not necessarily continuously played/replayed. I have many games that I cherish from 20+ years ago, like Ultima 7 Serpent's Isle. I have played and beat that game one time in my life but it was so impactful I still remember the story and it filters my opinion about games and story to this day.

Do I think games should use the same graphical style, user interface, non-rotating isometric view, real time combat and user input typing to chat to NPCs to this day? No, we have evolved gaming interfaces and created new ways of telling a story in the video game medium.

Back to 2e rules, it has been stated many times, but even BG1&2 deviated from the 2e rules to make a better translation into a video game.


The 20 years is pretty accurate. BG1 & BG2 have enjoyed continuous mod support even to this day because of their popularity. Many fans replay them from time to time over the years. NWN was the obvious successor, so it carried the torch for several years after with lots of DLC and expansions. Then Beamdog picked the original Baldur's Gate series back up years ago with the Enhanced Editions, releasing new characters, new missions, and new updates. Only about 3 years back that new expansion Dragonspear for BG1 was released as a bridge between BG1 & BG2. Plus you've had Enhanced NWN released with new updates just recently.

2e rules were altered, but not nearly to the extent that 5e has been here. If you knew 2e rules, you knew how BG worked. Same for NWN. If you knew 3e, you understood NWN with the changes being minimal and mostly to fix annoying things that were very broken or flat didn't work in a video game. Here, 5e has been fundamentally altered, including changing many things that were popular.

Last edited by Traycor; 28/10/20 04:49 AM.
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For sake of looking it up the most reliable information comes from Steam user counts.
issues with this are:
1) It only goes back to 2013
2) Players owned this external of Steam either from original box or sources like GoG or others
3) This only shows peak users online at the same time, not actual player base

Currently Baldur's Gate 2 has:
473 playing
907 in the last 24-hour peak
2,644 all-time peak

This shows a moderate player base of 300-700 over the years since 2013 up to today.

With your response about mod support, that just makes me ask a question. What in the game is modified? PHB rules?

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Originally Posted by CMF
For sake of looking it up the most reliable information comes from Steam user counts.
issues with this are:
1) It only goes back to 2013
2) Players owned this external of Steam either from original box or sources like GoG or others
3) This only shows peak users online at the same time, not actual player base

Currently Baldur's Gate 2 has:
473 playing
907 in the last 24-hour peak
2,644 all-time peak

This shows a moderate player base of 300-700 over the years since 2013 up to today.

With your response about mod support, that just makes me ask a question. What in the game is modified? PHB rules?


Can't speak to the Steam numbers, but lots of different editions of the game have been released over the years and on lots of platforms. It's obvious that both WotC and Larian both considered BG3 the holy grail, so it's not like BG is some obscure, unpopular series. Otherwise they would have given it a new name. Early sales (whether in games, movies, or books) are often reflective of brand recognition, and Larian got a lot more early sales than they expected. Baldur's Gate is a very recognizable brand in the RPG community.

As for the mods, nearly everything imaginable. Whole new NPC companions with quests, voice sets, romances, etc... LOTS of those. New zones, whole new storylines. Some of the mods rework the rules or add new classes. Many change game balance or add new equipment. The old games have lots of enthusiasm so the modders are always coming up with ways to add new things or improve the games. Look up the Gibberlings 3 site for an example of the many mods.

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I did not player BG1&2. I did play the goldbox games for Dragonlance series and I played NWN1 a lot, but did not get very far in NWN2. I have not played a lot of D&D in my childhood but did play a few times in recent years (but those sessions only lasted one or two nights, so not a serious group). I have kept loose touch with understanding of the rulesets because I actually owned a DM handbook, PHB, and monster manual when I was 16 but I didn't understand that the game was more than just a board game and needed other people to play, I just knew I liked the AD&D games so much I was interested in the art and books. I later returned those books because I realized how pointless it was to have those and no one to play with, so that has been my D&D experience.

I am familiar with the mechanics from THACO to just regular AC. Advantage/Disadvantage is new to me in 5e though, but I adapted easy enough.

So point back to why I went on a history trip. I have been a huge fan of D&D games for years, but I enjoy them for the setting and storytelling, not because of the dice and the rules. The various worlds that have been created by the fans and the official releases for D&D range from space and future magic/science tech and all the way back to swords and sorcery and even some HP Lovecraftian insanities. I don't like all those worlds but the "rules" are fairly consistent between them based on the different generations of the D&D editions.

I then put forward again. The game is interesting to me because of the story and world lore. The interface and mechanics make it a fun game to play. If the mechanics were unfun, that would turn me off from seeing the rest of the story. For some here, they don't think surface damage is fun, or having too many actions per a turn is fun. Others find too many restrictions and strict adherence of a table top interaction to be unfun.

Does being unfun to some players make this "not" a Baldur's Gate game? No it can be a Baldur's Gate game because of the story. Those users simply do not enjoy the interface enough to see the rest of the story. If this turned into a point and click adventure like Maniac Mansion or Monkey Island but in the world of Baldur's Gate, it would still be a BG game, I just wouldn't' want to play that interface is all because it isn't engaging to me today.

How can some users say they enjoyed the Divinity Original Sin games but as soon as it is labeled with Baldur's Gate it is not fun suddenly? You either like the mechanics in DoS or you don't, that mechanic works the same regardless of the name applied to it.

With the changes to the previous BG games via mod support, the game changed, the rules changed, new classes/races are added, yet the game is still BG even if those were not originally in those rulebooks, things can change and adapt. Speaking of mods, apparently there is already mod support for BG3 and even one of the forum moderates stated they liked a more hardcore rule with short/long rest so they use a mod when they play to add more restrictions. This leaves room for Larian to make the core game and interface and the community to tailor it to their liking. As long as the engine and core mechanics are functioning the supporting data can be adjusted to each players interests.

Is this ideal? Maybe? Some say that makes lazy designers, but this also keeps breathing life into games that should have died years ago (I'm looking at you Skyrim! Why do people like you so much??!).

----edit---
ok I rambled. I guess what I am trying to say TLDR: This can be a BG game but if you don't like the mechanics, it shouldn't be pseudo insulted and call it DoS 3 as if that makes it a lesser product. It is still BG, you just might not like how it plays and that's fair.

Last edited by CMF; 28/10/20 05:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by CMF
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by CMF
Why can't it be not a pure 5e game and still be another cool Larian game but also epic journey like BG.

The journey is not the mechanics, the journey is the story and trials and tribulations to overcome and feel accomplished at the end.
This statement just shows an internal bias to find reason to not like bg3.


You just forget that everything is a whole.
The mecanics and the gameplay are the journey AND the story.


(Figured I should continue conversation here instead of editing my post after you replied to it for coherency sake as it is out of sequence)

The reason this game is called Baulder's Gate is the lore and location.
D&D player handbooks don't write the books and game stories, they create an interface for the players to interact with a world.

BG1&2 were not even 5e, so because this game isn't 5e is the invalidating feature to make it and BG game then inherently 1&2 were not BG games with that logic.
You could argue that the writing style is different and by that you feel a variance in story telling that makes it unfamiliar to you and offsetting. Like a different author picking up a book after the original stopped a series.
It could be some of the best writing ever, but because it is different that often puts fans off. Like changing an actor mid way in a movie or tv series, or as I said adapting a new writer to tell a story.

That does not make the story better or worse, but the allegiance and bonds that the previous fans had is not the same so they feel betrayed, which I think is what is impacting so many of you. Nostalgia and unfamiliarity in storytelling.

If you guys can get past that, then you may enjoy this, but no one is making you and that is your prerogative and own opinion. Just hope people understand that these are down to subjective opinions and not hardline rules that clearly make something good or bad. Because those are your standards, not a universal standard.


I think you don't understand what I mean.
I'm not talking about the story of BG3 itself because we only have (a part of?) act 1 and because this is an EA. I had issues with the story but I'm confident about it.

I'm talking about Larian's mechanics and designed that don't fit into a serious story at all. I don't care about the new author and I'm fine with a new story whatever it is better or worse.

But no one would write a story in which everything is always on fire as soon as there is a combat, in which you can eat during combats, in which you can dip your weapons in fire, in which explosives barrels are everywhere.
These are only a few exemples of totally optionnal Larian's mechanics that are : 1) not accurate to D&D and it's balance and 2) disrespectfull to the lore because that's NOT how things works in that world.

And that's only a few exemples about combats. Let's talk a bit about exploration now...

Fast travel is actually designed as it is in every random game.
The map design is totally inconsistent (i.e "We can't find the grove, we're searching everywhere and my scouts never came back"... heh, just cross the stream and turn left, this is 500m away your main base).
The bestiary is totally wtf with fire arrows and poison and 150m jumps and 3 attacks/turns and you can go in the underdark as a random level 3 from the surface.

That's still not how it works in D&D and in the FR, which of course are not the same but that match really well together.

That said, I know we're in a video game and of course, things have to suit a video game.
But still for the exemples : fast travel could be designed to be a "travel", not a vulgar TP, the maps could be designed to be consistent in relation to the story, going to the underdark is cool, but not necessary as soon in the game,...
The surfaces are awesome, I think everyone agree about that... but as it is, it's absolutely inconsistent in regard to a story and to D&D.

That's the kind of things I was talking about saying that "everything is a whole".

Many just want an accurate D&D5 game, while I waited for a consistent game as were BG1/2. Other just want a TB game while others waited for a 3D isometric old style game...

I'm not saying everyone has the same opinion... but I agree that BG3 looks far more like a DoS3 that any D&D video game experience I had for many reasons...
The main reason is that D&D and the FR aren't the main material of the game... They're tools.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 28/10/20 05:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Arjuna
It is Very simple: so far, there is NOTHING about this game that is "Baldur's Gate". If the title of the game was, say... "Darkstorm" (instead of "Baldur's Gate 3"), NO ONE would make ANY connection to BG1 or BG2, whatsoever. Fallout 3 had more of a Fallout 1 and 2 feel than this does to Baldur's Gate and that was a COMPLETE paradigm shift in video game style from its prequels. This game is spammy, wantonly ignores a Stunning amount of D&D "rules", throws in effects and "barrel nonsense" like an eight year old swinging at a pinata and is massively linear, limiting player choice from the very beginning of character creation to the end of the Alpha. The OP is SPOT ON and, due to space/time limitations on his post, didn't list Dozens to Hundreds More examples of, "Man... guys... what the hell...?". Getting misnamed name "Tav" is just One, Excellent, example and there are Dozens more - So Far (we haven't even seen what else is cooking for later "chapters"). And, they Can Stop It - right now, in Alpha, they have a chance to stop this focus on cleverness and "BOOM WOWIE ZOWIE!" effects (does dash Really need some MAGICAL MYSTICAL POWERFUL I'M DOING SOMETHING, MOMMY, COME SEE!!! visual "artistry"?) and make it the tactical, realistic D&D experience that both follows and enhances its Baldur's Gate predecessors in a way that the Larian engine Clearly is capable of being. Stop being clever and be GOOD instead. You can either be Michael Jordan or you can be some clever street dribble master that never gets off his neighborhood court - not both.


You have created many topics with not constructive abuse against Baldurs Gate 3, two of them are already closed, so Minthara will answer you instead of me


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Fire surfaces do not change a story, the story existed regardless on if I can throw fire on the ground or not.

The world not being massive enough in a video game to represent real distances is not something new and through careful generation of "scripted spaces" you can make a small place "feel" big (actually sat in on a class about this talking about how Vegas uses long winding paths and limited sight lines to make tourists stay longer and lose track of time as they guide them through gambling lobbies before they can get to food or hotel rooms in order to control behavior of the people and manipulate them).

Fast travel is a quality of life addition that many games use now because rewalking through dead space that has already been explored becomes tedious to the average gamer (some people like that, but good game design recycles as little content as possible in order to keep the player engaged. If content is recycled it has to be done with a purpose, otherwise you are synthetically lengthening the player experience and possibly causing tedium).

Jumping, throwing and carrying heavy objects are "fun" mechanics introduced to make the world more interactable so it feels less static. Depending on your strict aderance to "reality" and "video game" you may be able to have a suspension of belief and just enjoy it, or you can be the guy in the movie theater going "THAT ISN"T REAL! No way do cars work that way, or guns can't shoot that much, or you can't get down a stairwell before a bomb goes off that fast!"

Basically, because video gaming in general has introduced too many new mechanics, it is adverse to your concept of how a game should be played.

It's like kids playing tag, but now they are playing with light sensor guns and it is called lazer tag, but you are just sitting there thinking "that isn't tag, real tag you have to run up and touch the person, you can't just tag them out from a distance like that, it isn't fun and it isn't fair".

I have actually seen feedback on here asking for the old user interface back because they thought it was easier to read and they liked the aesthetic. I feel like interfaces from back in the day were so bulky and hard to use, but some people learn to like a thing and they want to stick to it no matter what.

Random real life story. I had to hunt down computer equipment that was sent for destruction so that it could be removed from an inventory. Doing so, I had to go to an old government employee who had been in the military for 20+ years and then continued to work as a civilian for another 20+ years. This man had a whole room of filing cabinets dating back 10 years of all the inventory items that were sent for destruction. I asked if he had these logged on a softcopy database or spreadsheet or something that can be easily searched through.

He said that he didn't believe in computers because the data could be lost and the best way to keep files is with folders and drawers....so there I was, opening dusty old manila folders and reading hand written inventory stubs for a few weeks looking for this lost computer.

Is his way better? NO! But it was better for him, because he was too unfamiliar with technology that it would take too long for him to use any other system. He couldn't adapt to the current standards.

Last edited by CMF; 28/10/20 05:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by CMF
Fire surfaces do not change a story, the story existed regardless on if I can throw fire on the ground or not.

The world not being massive enough in a video game to represent real distances is not something new and through careful generation of "scripted spaces" you can make a small place "feel" big (actually sat in on a class about this talking about how Vegas uses long winding paths and limited sight lines to make tourists stay longer and lose track of time as they guide them through gambling lobbies before they can get to food or hotel rooms in order to control behavior of the people and manipulate them).

Fast travel is a quality of life addition that many games use now because rewalking through dead space that has already been explored becomes tedious to the average gamer (some people like that, but good game design recycles as little content as possible in order to keep the player engaged. If content is recycled it has to be done with a purpose, otherwise you are synthetically lengthening the player experience and possibly causing tedium).

Jumping, throwing and carrying heavy objects are "fun" mechanics introduced to make the world more interactable so it feels less static. Depending on your strict aderance to "reality" and "video game" you may be able to have a suspension of belief and just enjoy it, or you can be the guy in the movie theater going "THAT ISN"T REAL! No way do cars work that way, or guns can't shoot that much, or you can't get down a stairwell before a bomb goes off that fast!"

Basically, because video gaming in general has introduced too many new mechanics, it is adverse to your concept of how a game should be played.

It's like kids playing tag, but now they are playing with light sensor guns and it is called lazer tag, but you are just sitting there thinking "that isn't tag, real tag you have to run up and touch the person, you can't just tag them out from a distance like that, it isn't fun and it isn't fair".


Actually fire surfaces change the story if you consider the story as an entire experience, just as I explained.
Combats are a part of your journey and stick to the rules would lead to more consistent combat wink

World being inconsistent because it's impossible to have "real distance" => don't make me laugh... BG1 did it pretty wel 20 years ago
Fast travel, laughing again... => BG1 did it pretty well 20 years ago. Creating something more 2020 doesn't mean ridiculous TP.

Jumping, throwing and carrying are fun, I agree. But it actually breaks their gameplay and combats looks visualy and tactically ridiculous.

I guess you're trying to push it to the "nostalgia" thing because your imagination about what it could looks like is pretty limited.

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Originally Posted by Traycor
The 20 years is pretty accurate. BG1 & BG2 have enjoyed continuous mod support even to this day because of their popularity. Many fans replay them from time to time over the years. NWN was the obvious successor, so it carried the torch for several years after with lots of DLC and expansions. Then Beamdog picked the original Baldur's Gate series back up years ago with the Enhanced Editions, releasing new characters, new missions, and new updates. Only about 3 years back that new expansion Dragonspear for BG1 was released as a bridge between BG1 & BG2. Plus you've had Enhanced NWN released with new updates just recently.

2e rules were altered, but not nearly to the extent that 5e has been here. If you knew 2e rules, you knew how BG worked. Same for NWN. If you knew 3e, you understood NWN with the changes being minimal and mostly to fix annoying things that were very broken or flat didn't work in a video game. Here, 5e has been fundamentally altered, including changing many things that were popular.


QFT.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
I also feel like if someone wants to spend an hour dragging barrels around to make a massive explosion and kill something they probably shouldn't have they should be allowed to do that. This is a very pen and paper thing to do. The only thing I'd change is maybe let NPCs notice you're stacking barrels around them and react to that in some way. Or have someone get mad at you for running off with a barrel full of booze. I know I'd be pretty miffed if I saw someone do that!

Or they could address the fact that 1 cubic meter of water weights a ton (not hyperbole, I mean a literal TON) and that not even an ogre would be able to launch full barrels approaching that volume around up to meters away as if they were stones, let alone humans and co.

When "sticking to a degree of realism and common sense" and "fixing a potential exploit" can be solved in one shot. A proper matter of killing two birds with a stone.


Do you really want to bring up realism in the game?
In the same game where you can carry 10 plate armor and 20 swords in your pocket?

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
I also feel like if someone wants to spend an hour dragging barrels around to make a massive explosion and kill something they probably shouldn't have they should be allowed to do that. This is a very pen and paper thing to do. The only thing I'd change is maybe let NPCs notice you're stacking barrels around them and react to that in some way. Or have someone get mad at you for running off with a barrel full of booze. I know I'd be pretty miffed if I saw someone do that!

Or they could address the fact that 1 cubic meter of water weights a ton (not hyperbole, I mean a literal TON) and that not even an ogre would be able to launch full barrels approaching that volume around up to meters away as if they were stones, let alone humans and co.

When "sticking to a degree of realism and common sense" and "fixing a potential exploit" can be solved in one shot. A proper matter of killing two birds with a stone.


Do you really want to bring up realism in the game?
In the same game where you can carry 10 plate armor and 20 swords in your pocket?




Realism like liquid physic simulator? Maybe not.

Some common sense? YES

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Great summary!
Originally Posted by cannonball

4. Dialogue

I do not like one patern in BG3, in short; Persuasion solves all. If you see Percuasion option in dialogue take it, period, it's best, always...it just makes dialogues so primitive. And for your main char is mandatory to have this(charisma\persuasion), most crpg suffer from this problem actually.

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[quote=cannonballThere is some barrier that exists here, with certain race/ class combos where the ability score CANNOT be increased, even if there are enough points available for the allocation. I have been blocked at 15, 16, and 17 for various race/ class combos, even wen I have lowered EVERY other ability score to 8. I have 20 points available, then I should be able to take a score to 18. The blockage here makes no sense, and it means I play characters that have 4 14s and they are all copies of each other. I can’t make a big dumb meat shield warrior with 8 int, wis, and cha. In Pen and Paper, having 3 8’s would be a bad idea, but I should still be able to do it.
[/quote]

As a veteran player you don't know the Points Buy rules? You know these are exactly like they are in 5e right? 15 is the max you can get with points buy. This is a feature not a bug. With Points buy you can get three stats to 15, and 3 at 8, which is quite normal for MAD builds.

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Originally Posted by Traycor


The 20 years is pretty accurate. BG1 & BG2 have enjoyed continuous mod support even to this day because of their popularity. Many fans replay them from time to time over the years. NWN was the obvious successor, so it carried the torch for several years after with lots of DLC and expansions. Then Beamdog picked the original Baldur's Gate series back up years ago with the Enhanced Editions, releasing new characters, new missions, and new updates. Only about 3 years back that new expansion Dragonspear for BG1 was released as a bridge between BG1 & BG2. Plus you've had Enhanced NWN released with new updates just recently.

2e rules were altered, but not nearly to the extent that 5e has been here. If you knew 2e rules, you knew how BG worked. Same for NWN. If you knew 3e, you understood NWN with the changes being minimal and mostly to fix annoying things that were very broken or flat didn't work in a video game. Here, 5e has been fundamentally altered, including changing many things that were popular.



+1000.

In BG 3, knowing the mechanics of DoS is more important than knowing the mechanics of 5e. Literally. Maybe learning which numbers to tweak around (and what Adv/Dis is) but that's it. Nothing else. Knowing the rules of DoS (height is everything, barrelmancy, abuse surfaces) results in an easier game than knowing the rules of 5e.

BG 1/BG 2 altered the rules of 2e when they had to because they needed to translate the human decision making process (a human DM) into something a computer can comprehend. For example, the Wish spell is impossible for a computer to adjudicate as well as a human DM. So, BG 2 instead rewrote the rules and made a new version of it....but still kept the spirit of the spell (be careful what you wish for if you aren't wise enough to word it properly).

BG 1&2 made changes where it was necessary because you're replacing a human DM with a computer. Larian is making changes because they want to crowbar DoS into D&D.

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Hi CMF

Originally Posted by CMF
Fast travel is a quality of life addition that many games use now because rewalking through dead space that has already been explored becomes tedious to the average gamer (some people like that, but good game design recycles as little content as possible in order to keep the player engaged. If content is recycled it has to be done with a purpose, otherwise you are synthetically lengthening the player experience and possibly causing tedium).


In fact, a lot games don't used it or used it in a better way. I'm not, personnaly, disturbed by the fast travel even if I totally agree with the artificial aspect it have in the games. I mean, with this much TP everywhere I can't imagine why goblins didn't used them.
So yeah, it's just an easy and light-minded way to fast the travel of the gamer.


Originally Posted by CMF
Jumping, throwing and carrying heavy objects are "fun" mechanics introduced to make the world more interactable so it feels less static. Depending on your strict aderance to "reality" and "video game" you may be able to have a suspension of belief and just enjoy it, or you can be the guy in the movie theater going "THAT ISN"T REAL! No way do cars work that way, or guns can't shoot that much, or you can't get down a stairwell before a bomb goes off that fast!"


you would be right if it was for a complete new game but, and the more I think the more it occurs to me, it's the biggest mistake of Larian. They are not doign a whole new game. They are doing BG3, the fourth game of the series BG (not including ID) and they brag about it.
So it's only natural to have some expectations.
You said throwing and carrying heavy objects are "fun" and that's the problem. This "fun" you're talking about is a "fun" tagged "DOS fun", it's not "BG fun" and when I'm saying it this is not subjectivity, this is true.
BG3 is way more realistic and way less cartoon than DOS.
So when I play DOS I accept and I can even find "fun" the barrel's stuff. But, and I would really like to people to hear that, this is not DOS.
OK it's BG 3 and it can evolve, I hope so by the way ! But evolve doesn't mean direspect the essence of the game.
So yeah, if I go to the movie theater to watch... let's say "the silmarillion", yeah, HELL YEAH, I would be the guy who said "gosh, orcs didn't have any barrels and elves didn't used AK47 !"
And I would be right.


Originally Posted by CMF
Basically, because video gaming in general has introduced too many new mechanics, it is adverse to your concept of how a game should be played.

We all agree with this statement. But, again, lot of peoples tend to forget this is BG3, not a generic game taking place in Faerun. This is a game following two legendary games. Of course, we all wish it to be better than his predecessor as we (the BG-fan) all wish it'll respect his "tradition" (lineage ?).



Originally Posted by CMF
It's like kids playing tag, but now they are playing with light sensor guns and it is called lazer tag, but you are just sitting there thinking "that isn't tag, real tag you have to run up and touch the person, you can't just tag them out from a distance like that, it isn't fun and it isn't fair".

Actually I really love this example, cause it's a perfect example of what BG3 should be but not of what he is.
Let's redo it.
So we have a game "tag".
Respectfull Innovation "hey guys let's make it laser tag!" "hou yeah innovation!"
Larians innovation "hey guys let's move and shot each in turn!" "ho ye... WHAT ?"
That's a relevant example. And we can continue.
"but guys "each our turn" is great, we did it with chess it's so cool and strategic!" "ok guys... but.... it's not chess you know..." "yeah yeah sure but..." "no. Stop. It-is-not-chess." "...Right. Sry..." One year later..; "hey guys ! Why don't we played soccer but each in turn ?! it's so fun and strategic !" "Larian... leave please. go back to chess. "
I find it pretty relevant xD


Originally Posted by CMF
I have actually seen feedback on here asking for the old user interface back because they thought it was easier to read and they liked the aesthetic. I feel like interfaces from back in the day were so bulky and hard to use, but some people learn to like a thing and they want to stick to it no matter what.

I didn't officialy complain about the interface but To be honest it's not the most pleasant inventory I had to used but meh, there is other major issues for me.


Originally Posted by CMF
Random real life story. I had to hunt down computer equipment that was sent for destruction so that it could be removed from an inventory. Doing so, I had to go to an old government employee who had been in the military for 20+ years and then continued to work as a civilian for another 20+ years. This man had a whole room of filing cabinets dating back 10 years of all the inventory items that were sent for destruction. I asked if he had these logged on a softcopy database or spreadsheet or something that can be easily searched through.

He said that he didn't believe in computers because the data could be lost and the best way to keep files is with folders and drawers....so there I was, opening dusty old manila folders and reading hand written inventory stubs for a few weeks looking for this lost computer.

Is his way better? NO! But it was better for him, because he was too unfamiliar with technology that it would take too long for him to use any other system. He couldn't adapt to the current standards.

Ok... Listen... it's not cool to reduce people who disagree to a bunch of old fart unable to accept evolution. I hope you will have get that after reading my comment.
Cause seriously, I played a LOT of games, TB as RT games and I enjoyed a LOT of them.
As I tried to explain to you, here it's different from a whole new game.
It's BG "3" so it's normal to have expectations.

Maybe BG3 will be good, super good, massive success but if it doesn't answer the expectations we can be waiting from a "game+1", so it would have miss the point and even mislead a lot of gamers, no matter how good the game is.
They would have take advantage of the name without having be up to it.

Last edited by Zefhyr; 28/10/20 09:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by CMF


It's like kids playing tag, but now they are playing with light sensor guns and it is called lazer tag, but you are just sitting there thinking "that isn't tag, real tag you have to run up and touch the person, you can't just tag them out from a distance like that, it isn't fun and it isn't fair".


No.

What this is like is the following:

1. It's like playing tag since you were a kid, and every so often the rules are tweaked. You've played the latest rules of tag so you know what to expect.

2. Then, someone starts advertising that they're going to put together a game of tag using the latest rules.

3. They brag about how its going to be based on the older tag you played growing up, but using the new rules you're familiar with.

4. Finally, when you arrive for the big event, you find out that because the organizer thought lazer tag is more fun, that's what you'll be playing instead.

Is lazer tag fun? Yes. Would I still be pretty pissed if I paid to play tag and instead it was lazer tag just because someone thought regular tag wasn't fun enough? Also yes.

At this point the actual proper comparison is saying you're going to play football but instead you show up and its baseball, but I had to work with what you gave me.

The only reason this game is being made at all is because a community of people have supported a game and D&D for the last 20+ years. Literally that's the only reason, otherwise Larian would just be making DoS 3. So yeah, when you advertise that you're making BG 3 and using 5e rules, people expect it to be actual tag.

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