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Originally Posted by middle tab
I'm sorry, but my dear. no need to be like Astarion in the latest update. no need to be absolutely repulsive selfish frown and demand to remove from the game everything that does not suit you. I agree with the advantage of stabbing in the back. It's almost like in real life. What's wrong with damage from a height? In life, this also gives an advantage. It sounds kind of weird. I do this and I don't like it in my game. So it needs to be removed. But you also can't do that in your game. I almost never throw enemies. I just don't like it. The same goes for Jump behind the enemy's back. I have done this in my game 1 or 2 times. Although many people like it. Why other players who like to kill goblins from the rafters (from a height) should abandon their play style? Or I do not understand something I apologize again.
it's almost like you had no actual understanding of the topic you are attempting to discuss.


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It is simple. If there is a mechanic in the game that allows the player OR THE COMPUTER to simply apply one strategy to completely destroy the other, that is no fun. If I have to ALWAYS take high ground to win every fight or the computer will, that's not fun. Nor is that "realistic". Just because someone has a higher elevation, it doesn't mean they can hit twice as good with a bow as someone on a lower level. A person who can't shoot a bow well won't suddenly become a sniper king just because they are on a hill.

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Originally Posted by middle tab
It's almost like in real life. What's wrong with damage from a height? In life, this also gives an advantage. It sounds kind of weird.

Why do people always come up with "it's realistic that height gives you advantage"?

This discussion happened so many times, and I absolutely despise this argument.

Can we please stick to say advantage in the usual sense and call the DnD 5e rule mechanic 'Advantage' something like DnD Advantage? It's less confusing.

And again i want to point out:
Imagine you and I stand 10m apart and aim at euch other with a bow. With both are equally skilled. So we both have the same chance to hit, let's say 75%.

Now I get on a table, and I am 1m elevated above the ground. Nothing else has changed.
Now suddenly I have a hit chance of 93.8% (DnD Advantage --> high ground) and you have a hit chance of 56.4% (DnD Disadvantage --> low ground).

Is that realistic? Because that's exactly what's in the game right now.

And, what adds, is that the one on high ground ALSO has the advantage (not DnD Advantage) of being on high ground and melee fighters will not reach you so easily.

It's just ower-powered, unrealistic and - most importantly - unavoidable, because we have a lot of verticality in the game (which is a good thing).

So it's just a very bad homebrew and it - imho - should go.

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Well said.

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thanks everyone for the explanation. however, I did not mean the height advantage. "Table" or "stone". Roof, rafters, rock - that's what "serious" height I'm talking about. I would like to keep this advantage, but the idea of ​​obstacles and penalties is a good idea. I love to play rooftop sniper. but it also seems strange to me that the enemy does not try to leave the open space. when he doesn't understand where they are shooting from

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Originally Posted by middle tab
thanks everyone for the explanation. however, I did not mean the height advantage. "Table" or "stone". Roof, rafters, rock - that's what "serious" height I'm talking about. I would like to keep this advantage, but the idea of ​​obstacles and penalties is a good idea. I love to play rooftop sniper. but it also seems strange to me that the enemy does not try to leave the open space. when he doesn't understand where they are shooting from
Keep in mind even if High Ground doesn't apply Advantage to the attack, being out of sight still does. The player can use the hide command and get Sneak Attack with Astarion (From the rafters, etc.)

If High Ground (2d20) Advantage is removed from the game, the player now has a meaningful choice on how to use their bonus action. While currently in game, there is less strategizing once you see you have Advantage from High Ground in the HUD.

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I feel the height differences affecting ranged attacks needs some major reworking. I get it that height can affect range of missiles (arrows, bolts, darts, thrown objects, etc.. ) and potentially affect damage on a very minor ammount (because of gravity slowing or speeding up said projectile), but that should not affect accuracy of missiles. Anyone that has shot a real bow, or slingshot with any degree of skill would know this. Yes you have to make trajectory adjustments, just as you would for ANY shot, but if you are "proficient" in the weapon you are using you would know how to adjust for that. I just don't understand the reasoning behind such extreme positive and negative adjustments for accuracy (chance to hit) in this game caused by elevation differences.

And Spells seriously should not be affected by height differences at all if they are LOS (line of sight spells). If you see them, you should be able to hit them without penalty. Magic resistance yes, but not elevation adjustments.

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Yup!

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There's a thread about this in MegaThreads, feel free to post your thoughts and opinions in the MegaThread.

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Can anyone tell me, where did Larian's bad idea of giving advantage/disadvantage based on the height of the characters came from?

The fact that you are on high ground is an advantage in itself:

- You can get out of your enemy's line of sight whenever you want.
- Your enemy will take a while to get to you.
- Your enemy has difficulty throwing objects where you are.
- Your enemy has no vision of what's behind you.
- You can push him if he gets close and he'll take a lot of damage and he'll have to climb again.
- Until now, there is no way for him to pull you.

Last edited by linkezio; 27/07/21 07:49 AM. Reason: modify the video
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I appreciate your zeal in reporting all this bullshit, linkezio.
You are fighting the good fight.

Incidentally, you are also much preaching to the choir here, since we had dozens of discussions on these arguments and there are "megathreads" going on for months about this stuff in the appropriate section.
You should check it a bit before we start going in circles again.

Last edited by Tuco; 27/07/21 07:26 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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and what would be the appropriate session?
Originally Posted by Tuco
I appreciate your zeal in reporting all this bullshit, linkezio.
You are fighting the good fight.

Incidentally, you are also much preaching to the choir here, since we had dozens of discussions on these arguments and there are "megathreads" going on for months about this stuff in the appropriate section.
You should check it a bit before we start going in circles again.

and what would be the appropriate section?

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Originally Posted by linkezio
Can anyone tell me, where did Larian's bad idea of giving advantage/disadvantage based on the height of the characters came from?
To further emphasize on one of their brand features, further promoting it. It started with the DOS games, when no other game of the genre (maybe Wasteland? I'm not sure) involves verticality as a combat factor. "Hey this is something we came up with that is super cool and you should really use it. It's ok if you don't want to use it but you'll probably get wrecked by enemies who use it, so yeah you'd better use it".

Originally Posted by linkezio
and what would be the appropriate session?
It's ok to start new old discussions, at least when you yourself have never started one. Mods will merge them if they see fit but It helps reminding everyone of the presence of an issue. There are times when "going in circles" is what it takes for changes to happen.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 27/07/21 07:50 AM.

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The aptly named "Mega-threads and guides".
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=90&page=1

More specifically, when it comes to this topic in particular, this one:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719930#Post719930

Which is a merging of the DOZENS of times we already had this discussion in a single Frankenstein thread.

That said, I'm not against hammering the point over and over, it's useful for the new users who aren't familiar with the old topics.
Just be aware that you aren't really saying anything new or controversial here.

Last edited by Tuco; 27/07/21 07:51 AM.

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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
To further emphasize on one of their brand features, further promoting it. It started with the DOS games, when no other game of the genre (maybe Wasteland? I'm not sure) involves verticality as a combat factor. "Hey this is something we came up with that is super cool and you should really use it. It's ok if you don't want to use it but you'll probably get wrecked by enemies who use it, so yeah you'd better use it".

I'm not saying that Larian can't do that, but as a player I find these mechanics pretty bad and pointless, just that. In my opinion, the reasons I mentioned in the thread are good enough for you to stay in high ground, but beyond that, there's the advantage/disadvantage issue, that completely spoils the balance in my opinion.

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With removal of disengage from jump, nerf to high ground is another needed advantage. While combat has been much much better with patch5, high ground is still the answer to all problems. Concept it self is good, but advantage is just too powerful.

Removal backstab advantage made melee combat more interesting, and same will happen to range combat. I would advocate to try even just extended range, and see if it still makes high ground desirable. Maybe add small bonus after that (+2 to hit).

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Removal backstab advantage made melee combat more interesting, and same will happen to range combat. I would advocate to try even just extended range, and see if it still makes high ground desirable. Maybe add small bonus after that (+2 to hit).

It's amusing to me that when you suggest the +1/+2 to hit as a replacement for advantage some people's rebuttal is "B-but +X bonuses are not how 5th edition works" . Well, neither is advantage for height.
Or again "If you start to add +1 or +2 for things it gets too complicate to keep count". Well, thank god is a computer game and you don't have to do it yourself?

Last edited by Tuco; 27/07/21 08:15 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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It's really obvious how much high ground dominates combat. I don't understand why they have released the EA like that in the first place and refused to tweak it for 5 big patches.

The Zhent Hideout is probably the most glaring example. Push the boss lady and her sidekick down and kill everything with ranged weapons without ever getting hit. You're in their base and there's a lot of Zhents there. It's supposed to be dangerous.

The huge advantage/disadvantage swing is the biggest offender but also being able to use Thunderwave or Pushing Attack AND Shove on the SAME turn... what were they thinking? And are still thinking?

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Positioning around height is definitely tactically interesting and its something that's hard to get working outside of the format Larian are working with so I can understand high ground being pushed. You really want the bonus to be something the player finds it difficult to ignore, especially in the early game.

I still think Advantage/Disadvantage is too much though. It wrecks the internal balancing by making anything that works on a ranged attack roll overwhelmingly better than other attacks and going from all your attacks have advantage and all attacks against you have disadvantage to the reverse is far too huge a difference. I like the idea but I think balancing it is going to be tough.

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I dunno "where" they take it ...
But im kinda glad they did, since it adds another aspect you need to take in concideration, in both your own, and your enemies positioning ...

But i would certainly not mind at all, if "advantage" as it is, was replaced either by quite realistic polonging the shooting range ... or by so often mentioned hard bonus +1/+2 to hit chance ... or both. :P laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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