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I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.


Several of the items were condensed for brevity, such as the Hotbar UI. In particular I was trying to reference how it both appears similar stylistically and functionally. For example, the automatically placing of potions, scrolls, items, abilities resulting in a cluttered mess that doesn't keep its arrangement, as well as the automatic removal of 'abilities' that are no longer available (such as the Recast Hex/Hunter's Mark) that then get filled in by picking something up, making for a tedious process each time you use those 'temporary' skills. Should I provide more detail on some of them?

Other items like #1 were straight up lifted based on seeing the same comment repeated on this forum or the Discord server. I suppose someone could do a full color palette analysis, but admittedly it was ultimately a subjective call on my part. The plural of anecdote is not data, but until someone can do a more objective analysis I do agree that the color palette is more similar to the DoS series (bright, exaggerated lighting, overly vivid colors) than anything else, much less the Baldur's Gate series (duller, subdued lighting). Undoubtedly some of that is due to the progression of time and expectations of visual fidelity, but the comparison remains (compare BG 3 to something like the PKM/Wasteland 3 color palettes to show what the feel could be even on a modern engine).

Fair point on the hotbar. Probably should rephrase to “hotbar functionality” though.

Please don’t feel like you need to defend all the points you listed (you’ll have no time for anything else if you do). I know you are simply listing arguments made by others.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol

Fair point on the hotbar. Probably should rephrase to “hotbar functionality” though.

Please don’t feel like you need to defend all the points you listed (you’ll have no time for anything else if you do). I know you are simply listing arguments made by others.


No worries, it was a great suggestion so I tweaked #48 a bit to clarify. Still trying to keep it 'broad' until asked to clarify, otherwise it becomes less of a list and more of a novel. And honestly just a bit apprehensive of doing something more comprehensive until Larian shows how much they care if the game feels like DoS rather than BG :-/

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.


I feel like you might have a misconception of my intention.

This isn't a list of things that are 'only' from DoS. They are factors that make the game 'feel' like DoS, rather than a Baldur's Gate. Apologies if that was a confusion.

#3. BG 1 started you off in Candlekeep, a well known location and nary a shipwreck or prison in site. BG 2 *did* start you off in a prison, of sorts, but you didn't wake up on a beach, you weren't throw overboard. You started in a literally massive city. Compare the start of BG 3 to BG1/2, and then comparing BG 3 to the start of DoS 1/2.

BG 1/2 - You start as a prisoner in BG 2.....

DoS 1/2 - All of the things I listed.

That's why it's on the list.

#4. BG 1/2 had very few 'useless' items. There were some for flavor, but otherwise that was it. The world was filled with non-relevant items, but they were background art, non-interactable. The fleshed out the world without being cumbersome. DoS 1/2 on the other hand, chocked full of them to the point where it is literally a meme. Are some MMOs filled with useless items? Yes, but people don't seem to be comparing BG 3 to any MMOs out there, they are comparing it almost exclusively to the BG series and DoS.

#5. Nope, in fact you may noticed I listed the overabundance of certain magic items as a similarity with DoS rather than BG 1/2. Might want to read the full list. This is in reference to the absurd number of containers that contain....nothing. Not useless items as in #4, literally nothing. BG series *kind* of had that *occasionally* with the bookshelves, but more often than not those bookshelves at least had thick lore books to read in them (albeit most just copies).

#6 This one may have suffered due to my efforts at condensing list/just taking from other posters. If it continues to be viewed unfavorably happy to remove.

#7. Nope, please see -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719930. It follows neither the rules of 5e nor is it good for game balance, but more importantly the perspective of "King of the Hill" style gameplay being a clear import from DoS is pretty common in the forums and Discord server.

#8. Yes, sort of. But as you may or may not know, BG 1 & 2 didn't use 5e rules. It used 2e rules. It also didn't operate as Advantage for every single class but more as a class feature for certain Rogues. Compare that to DoS where any character could access it with minimal effort.

#10. Please see response to #3.

#14. Please see my introduction to this post, I don't care if other games have done it. BG did not do it and DoS absolutely did it. To the point where they literally reused the same DoS resources including the sound effects and certain icons in BG 3.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.


I feel like you might have a misconception of my intention.

This isn't a list of things that are 'only' from DoS. They are factors that make the game 'feel' like DoS, rather than a Baldur's Gate. Apologies if that was a confusion.

#3. BG 1 started you off in Candlekeep, a well known location and nary a shipwreck or prison in site. BG 2 *did* start you off in a prison, of sorts, but you didn't wake up on a beach, you weren't throw overboard. You started in a literally massive city. Compare the start of BG 3 to BG1/2, and then comparing BG 3 to the start of DoS 1/2.

BG 1/2 - You start as a prisoner in BG 2.....

DoS 1/2 - All of the things I listed.

That's why it's on the list.

#4. BG 1/2 had very few 'useless' items. There were some for flavor, but otherwise that was it. The world was filled with non-relevant items, but they were background art, non-interactable. The fleshed out the world without being cumbersome. DoS 1/2 on the other hand, chocked full of them to the point where it is literally a meme. Are some MMOs filled with useless items? Yes, but people don't seem to be comparing BG 3 to any MMOs out there, they are comparing it almost exclusively to the BG series and DoS.

#5. Nope, in fact you may noticed I listed the overabundance of certain magic items as a similarity with DoS rather than BG 1/2. Might want to read the full list. This is in reference to the absurd number of containers that contain....nothing. Not useless items as in #4, literally nothing. BG series *kind* of had that *occasionally* with the bookshelves, but more often than not those bookshelves at least had thick lore books to read in them (albeit most just copies).

#6 This one may have suffered due to my efforts at condensing list/just taking from other posters. If it continues to be viewed unfavorably happy to remove.

#7. Nope, please see -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719930. It follows neither the rules of 5e nor is it good for game balance, but more importantly the perspective of "King of the Hill" style gameplay being a clear import from DoS is pretty common in the forums and Discord server.

#8. Yes, sort of. But as you may or may not know, BG 1 & 2 didn't use 5e rules. It used 2e rules. It also didn't operate as Advantage for every single class but more as a class feature for certain Rogues. Compare that to DoS where any character could access it with minimal effort.

#10. Please see response to #3.

#14. Please see my introduction to this post, I don't care if other games have done it. BG did not do it and DoS absolutely did it. To the point where they literally reused the same DoS resources including the sound effects and certain icons in BG 3.




No worries mate, I was just pointing out that if someone had never played DOS 2, they may have a completely different take, because some of the tropey stuff is tropey for a reason.

In regard to 5: The question stands. There were lootable items in BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD 2, NWN, NWN 2 and on and on, that were there for the express purpose of being sold to a vendor. Useless for anything else.

7. Yeah, so is "it's exactly the same as Divinity". I have the experience from just this morning because my catalog of games I can play offline is small, to say "Nope, it's not exactly the same". I also have some real world experience to know that shooting from high ground does give one an advantage. I may have even addressed that in that thread, but perhaps not. However, even with archery, if you're shooting deer, you can get a clearer shot from a blind in a tree than trying to shoot through underbrush to hit it. Nothing to do with range, or damage rolls, just a purely factual representation of what it's actually like.

Regarding 8, see where I agreed with you about the rogues. Yes, I did know, I have a lot of experience with both BG and BG 2.

10: Yeah, as I said, it's a trope for a reason. Pointing at all the tropes to say "see, DOS 3" doesn't carry a lot of weight, especially if they were tropes before DOS 2 ever came out.

Wasn't 14 about food? Did you know you could be a master chef in Aion, about 10 years before Divinity? This is what I'm talking about. Someone reading this that's never played DOS 2 is going to be more like "what are they going on about, that was in Oblivion, or Aion, or (insert other games they may have played that had cooking)".

Last edited by robertthebard; 28/10/20 08:31 PM.
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+1 to 90% of these!

The other 10% is QoL changes, or speeding up development/integration of features by using existing stuff from DOS (trading/bartering etc.)

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
*snip*


No worries mate, I was just pointing out that if someone had never played DOS 2, they may have a completely different take, because some of the tropey stuff is tropey for a reason.

In regard to 5: The question stands. There were lootable items in BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD 2, NWN, NWN 2 and on and on, that were there for the express purpose of being sold to a vendor. Useless for anything else.

7. Yeah, so is "it's exactly the same as Divinity". I have the experience from just this morning because my catalog of games I can play offline is small, to say "Nope, it's not exactly the same". I also have some real world experience to know that shooting from high ground does give one an advantage. I may have even addressed that in that thread, but perhaps not. However, even with archery, if you're shooting deer, you can get a clearer shot from a blind in a tree than trying to shoot through underbrush to hit it. Nothing to do with range, or damage rolls, just a purely factual representation of what it's actually like.

Regarding 8, see where I agreed with you about the rogues. Yes, I did know, I have a lot of experience with both BG and BG 2.

10: Yeah, as I said, it's a trope for a reason. Pointing at all the tropes to say "see, DOS 3" doesn't carry a lot of weight, especially if they were tropes before DOS 2 ever came out.

Wasn't 14 about food? Did you know you could be a master chef in Aion, about 10 years before Divinity? This is what I'm talking about. Someone reading this that's never played DOS 2 is going to be more like "what are they going on about, that was in Oblivion, or Aion, or (insert other games they may have played that had cooking)".


#5 yup, the infamous Vendor Trash (tm). But this isn't vendor trash. The VT in the listed games had actually worthwhile gold value, especially relative to their weight. We didn't get inventories full of 1gp bones, skulls, ropes, tongs, sheers, etc. That's why I didn't say vendor trash, but specifically the useless items that don't even serve the purpose of generating gold.

#7 If you read the link I wrote, I am actually *heavily* advocating for BG 3 to represent digitally what you described. Which is the Cover mechanics, a base rule of 5e. Height should potentially allow you to shoot over Cover, thus providing (in general) a +2 to the attack roll. That's not what is currently represented in BG 3. Right now, shooting from a stand is treated as if you suddenly strapped a thermal scope and hunted in pitch black, regardless of whether there was any Cover between you and the target to begin with. But as you know, shooting a target from a stand or from the ground, when there is no Cover at all between you and your target to begin with, is not any more inherently accurate (target/range/sighting dependent, but roughly true), while BG 3 currently treats it as if there is. Introducing the 5e Cover mechanics is a golden goal for me personally.

#10 But it's not a trope of the BG series, while it is a *firm* trope of the DoS series. To the point where all you have to say is "start on a beach" and too many people immediately know you're memeing DoS. Like it or not, that trope is *heavily* associated with DoS, and not at all with the BG series. This is not a point I expect Larian to change at this point, but it is accurate for a list of why the game may feel like DoS rather than BG.

#14 Again, I feel like you're ignoring the point of this thread. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

Yes, Yes, No, No, often = put on the list. Whether or not another game also had a similar feature isn't relevant to me, especially because Larian isn't known for those games so the expectations to differentiate from some random other game aren't relevant (to me at least).

This thread isn't relevant, at all, for someone that hasn't played DoS. But then again the literally most commonly provided feedback on this forum also isn't that BG 3 feels too much like Aion. It's that it feels too much like DoS. So that's what DoS is the comparison, not other games. It isn't factors that are unique to DoS, it's for factors that are prominent in DoS but also generally not prominent in BG, thus lending to the feeling of playing DoS rather than BG.

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Great list, smile
one more: no xp for conversation

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view



That does paint a picture, but it also leaves one asking Claude Monet if he can make his pictures more like picasso but still keep that monet feeling


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I wasent complaining about the list itself but if you insist... Half of these things are nitpicks or things that have already been brought up a dozen times. Some of these things are issues that are already confirmed to be subject to change or features that they are working on. Some are the same exact point as others in the list which made the list bloated. (4 and 5 easy example of this)

So in short im rolling my eyes and sighing because I see a post like this at least twice, if not more times; per day. And each time the posts come across as if the OP doesent understand what an early acces is.

OP is free to share his list. Just like others are free to have reservations about the lists.


.....

Did you read the title? Or the introduction paragraph where I blatantly said some of them are sourced from other posters?

And by all means, please, point out (and provide the source for) which ones:
- Are confirmed to be subject to change
- Are confirmed to be features they are working on

Next, do you know the difference between a meaningless Item (rope, tongs, sheers, aka all of the copied DoS resources with no function) and a meaningless Container (chest and barrels with nothing in them)? If Larian wishes to keep the meaningless Items for flavor, but lose the meaningless Containers for ease of gameplay...well there ya go. Different elements.

Please, provide more examples. As noted, since you appear to not have actually read the introductory paragraph, I am happy to add to/remove from the list

I read the title and your opening paragraph. Doesent take away from my points though. But for the sake of beeing helpfull rather then just critiize il add my 2 cents.

So what I see is that the list can basicly be summed up in a variety of categories. Complaints. And often generic ones at that. Points where the game compares alot to DOS. Points where it compares to BG, but the opinion is that theres to little of these. And things that either seem to be bugs, incomplete features or things that just need to be adressed. Which is what the EA is for. Il list some feedback by each points why I do or do not see the merit behind it.

Generic complaints
1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class. 7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay) Combined these 2 because they are literally the same. Height giving advantage is a VERY frequently mentioned point of critisim. BG dident even have heigh (or lack thereof) so uh.... You all want a flatt world or something?
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS). Uh. Yeah? They use the same engine. Also its a dnd 5e rule. Attacking someone who cant see you gives you advantage. Whats the complaint?
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else. Food defenitly isent better then the greater or superior healing potions so this is just outright false.
27. Stealth sight cones. Why is this a complaint? It allows one to make use of stealth. Seriously why are the vision cones a complaint?
29. Limited to 1 summon per character. Might be for balance reasons, or engine related. There also arent many classes outside of necromancer or conjurers who can actually get multiple minions.
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause. The game is based on 5th ed dnd. Dnd is turn based. Making it real time would mean things like reactions etc would need major overhauls or simply wouldnt work. Cant run away from a melee threat as a wizard while also casting spells for example, which you CAN do in turn based.
33. Closeup character models for Portraits. Ive seen multiple games that use this system. Whats the complaint exactly?
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere. Fast travel is a QoL improvement. I mean. Why are these things issues that people complain about? If you dont like it just walk everywhere. THAT IS AN OPTION. You dont have to fast travel....
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2. Ok. So they used a voice actor they got experience working with? Why would this make it more or less BG or DOS? Cant they use ANY of the voice actors that have worked in their previous games?
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces. Its literally the same engine.
42. Merchant UI. What about it. Dont like it? Got improvements for it? What? Whats the complaint? Honestly the merchant UI from bg was dreadfull so I dont know why this would be something to complain about?
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices. Ok. So they got a barter system? What about it? Want to suggest improvements? BG actually dident give you a chance to barter so I guess that means its more closely tied to DOS but..... Why is the fact that you can raise rep in place of a barter system a bad thing?
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character. 19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later. Merged these 2 as they focus on the same thing.Yeah? What did you expect that you can rob them of everything up to and including their underwear and they would never notice?
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps. You dont like it I guess? What does this have to do with either BG or DOS though?
46. 4 party limit. Dnd is balanced around 4 man parties. Dont know what to tell you.
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers) SAME. ENGINE.
48. Hotbar UI. What bout it. You know what also had a hotbar? BG.
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them) seriously what the everliving **$_ why is this a complaint? What does this have to do with BG or DOS?
55. Lockpicking progress bar. Why is this a complaint?
58. Showing the percentage to-hit. Anyone who can do basic math and who understands how they can calculate odds will know that a die results can be directly translated to a percentage. 75% to hit is probably more clear for non DnD players then needing a 6 and up for a hit. Its a QoL improvement for non dnd players
61. Companions completely block movement. Hey guess what also blocks your movement in dnd? Your teammates.
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer. How is that a complaint? I mean seriously. Do people expect a totally different UI if they go into multiplayer or something?
66. No Fog of War. *sigh* the game DOES have fog of war. You can only vieuw a very limited area around your characters and unless you have LOS to creatures they are effectivly INVISIBLE to you. THAT. IS. FOG. OF. WAR.
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth. Ah I see we are putting 'players are offered tactical choices' as complaints now! What does this have to do with BG or DOS? You could do this in both of these games and im sure im plenty of other games as well.
68. No tracking of normal arrows. A QoL improvement is now complained about. Guess you want to keep in your inventory every now and again and check if you still have plenty of arrows but I think most players wont miss it.
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them). Look up the defenition of aimbotting please. Also most games that have a sort of 'ac' system have the AI targgeting the most vunerable targets first. Its tactical sense. Why is this a complaint? Do you want braindead AI to fight against?
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion. Must admit I dont know what this one is about. My assumption is the 'husband' zombie from the bog? Why is putting funny and/or usefull summons in the game seen as a bad thing?

So most of this above list imho can be tossed in the trash. It either has nothing to do with DOS nor BG or is complaining for the sake of complaining. Or just outright complaining that the game is moving forward with its time rather then holding on to bg1+2 features from 20 years ago.

Comparisons to DOS
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions. Yes they do use a very simular system compared to what they used for DOS.
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story. Does indeed follow the same formula as DOS. But dont see that as a bad thing per se.
11. Barrelmancy. Granted, way to many barrels in the game currently. Thats also why a new thread pops up about it almost daily.
12. Surfaces *everywhere* cantrips creation 13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage. Merged these 2. I feel that cantrips creating surfaces is indeed to powerfull and that seems to be the concensus on the forums as well. Outside of cantrips though? Outside of cantrips I havent really ran into THAT many.
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight. Thats what they need EA for to balance the encounters. But currently? Agree that some of the fights are TO hard considering were supposed to be in a hurry!
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions). I must be missing something. Flashy gimmicks? I dont really see what you mean by that Enemies using tons of consumables I agree with though.
17. No normal enemies. Define 'normal' please. Because ive seen plenty most of the enemies in the game are generic normal enemies actually.
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit). Agreed there. What a trap kit does you can do with thieves tools in pnp DND as well. And you also dont consume them with each lock either!
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat. Agreed. Thats feedback on encounters though. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS.
21. Chaining party members and movement system. Agreed, I personally hate the system. Specially considering how easy bg 1 and 2 managed to do multiple party member movement.
22. Shared inventory space. 23. Inventory management and UI. 24. Swap any gear on and off in combat. These 3 basicly all complain about the same thing, the current inventory UI. And agreed. Can use some work. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS though.
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc) Agreed. Some of the flashy animations are overly flashy for what they are doing. (jumping beeing a good example) but at the same time it makes it more visible that something is going on.

So this list was alot shorter but I do agree with alot of it. Point is though, the game is made in the divinity engine and made by Larian so obviously its going to have some simularities in areas.

Comparisons to BG
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby. Guess which game basicly has the same starting premise? Baldurs gate 2. Outside of you not beeing on a vessel or starting on a beach the intro is pretty much identical.
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning. [color:#FFCCCC]Gu
ess what game you could also only customize 1 character in? Baldurs Gate.[/color]
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short. Do me a favour. Go into baldurs gate. And grab a book or look at an item description. Whats that? You could look up item descriptions and many BG books but most were very short as well? Oh inmagine that.

List abit shorter but some of the complaints why its to much like DOS could also apply to bg.

Genuinge critcism
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.) This is something that really needs to be adressed. Giving everyone a feat that was restricted to the rogue robs both the rogue of his identity as well as unbalancing the game in other classes their favour.
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells. Agreed. Not sure why thats a thing at all. Although granted some spells can be cast on others as well in which case I understand it. Guess they just need to remove the un-needed confirmation.
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat. I do notice xp for conversations sometimes but agree that non-combat options should be equally rewarded.
57. No need to identify magic items. Agreed. Needs to be added.
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats. Agreed. Needs to be removed. Thats a fighter subclass (Champion I believe) feature and shouldnt be available to everyone! That said, seems like a left over feature from the engine.
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted. Yup, agreed. Its because of the way in which line of sight can be drawn. Incidentily also why magic missles can miss, which shouldnt be the case!
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location. Agree that its inclusion would be better.
64. Cannot adjust starting gear. Agreed. Should be defenitly changed.
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.). Agreed but at the same time I can see the reason why. Adding memorable things that dont really give you an over powered imbalance but have some nice quirks fits in nicely with DnD. But it shouldnt overpower the usefullness for having spellcasters with those features either. Tough to balance those 2 things.
71. No random encounters. We dont know that. From what we have seen in the EA so far, sure. However we dont know whatever or not they would actually be in the final game or not.

So these I would classify as genuine criticism. It doesent have much to with simularities between DOS or BG though. Some of these should be added imo and a few are things that they are working on while others ive seen no mention off.

Potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed
4. World full of meaningless items. 5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them. Merged these 2. Item placement in the game is something that needs to be done but imo obviously something that simply isent done yet during EA.
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation. Havent noticed this myself. Maybe a craphical glitch?
28. Swap spells nearly at-will. Admit, lac of that doesent seem to be like an intentional feature imo. Picking spells by day is a big DnD feature.
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn. Seems like a bug, it shouldnt.
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage). Made mention of these myself. But overall game feedbacl. Not something that makes it DOS or BG per se....
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time. Seems like a bug? Considering you get a 'attack with off hand' ability if you dual wield its probably a graphical thing or hasent been seperated from how dual wielding works in DOS.
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”) Well if you have an abilitiy that basicly does the same thing a quik reskin or name swap doesent seem like a bad idea. If anything, it saves development time!
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt) 40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic. Combined these 2. Yeah alt needs to light up everything that you can interact with. Not sure why its not doing that currently but my guess is a incomplete feature.
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps. Think this is a bug. As the AI dident have this problem in DOS.
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait. Guess we can chalk that up to a bug or missing feature. Considering you can click on a portrait and it confirms that its an option but currently isent working makes me think its just needs to be fixed.
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat. Think thats a bug. Only had it happen once myself and every other time it takes its turns pretty quikly.
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation. Camera very obviously needs tweaking and/or overhaul. Its abit finicky atm and defenitly not working as intended.

So as the header 'potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed' implies..... The game is in EA. Theres bound to be bugs and unfinished features in it. Thats why we are participating in the EA and helping them find their features. And if you dont want to, well they gave everyone some very clear warnings about the state of the game so if you missed that its on you tbh.... Feel free to come back later at a stage where its more done or even when its fully launched if you dont want to see half-finished features.

So looking back over half of the list could be tossed in the trash in my opinion (generic complaints) while alot of the other points have merit but most are not specificly tied to BG or DOS. They use the same engine (that they made themselves) for Divinity so ofcourse it will look alike in some areas. Plenty of dnd features (like missing actions for example) just seem to not have been added yet and others (like most of the things in the last bug list) dont seem to be intentional. The game has been in EA for, what. 3 weeks? While they said they would need a year at the very least. Give Larian some time to take in the feedback and actually put in work to get things into the game.

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Please Demoulius, let's try to be honnest when you're answering...
This kind of backstab is not a part of D&D... Or maybe you didn't try a lot of things in BG3....

Stop saying everything is perfect, because nothing really is and that's a fact...
Of course I won't argue with you about every points but many of your answers are a little bit ridiculous, and I'm sure you know it.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 28/10/20 09:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view



That does paint a picture, but it also leaves one asking Claude Monet if he can make his pictures more like picasso but still keep that monet feeling


If Da Vinci claims that he’ll do La Creazione 3, you’ll definitely not expect god reaching hands with Gioconda :P

Last edited by Sludge Khalid; 28/10/20 10:05 PM.
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This conversation is not fruitful:

We like onions
We’ve been offered onions, we got tomatoes
We don’t like tomatoes
Other people likes tomatoes
We’re complaining that we didn’t like the tomatoes we’ve got
Others enjoyed receiving tomatoes Instead of onions
Some of the others are raging against us saying that tomatoes are good
We don’t like tomatoes.

We’ll get nowhere.

God, how I miss onions

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
*snip*


I am going to read them all, believe me. If any have good points, happy to include! I am still on the fence regarding specifically delineating out otherwise potentially similar factors (Reliance on Environment being a general factor versus the specifics factors of Height, barrelmancy, etc.). In general, I tried to keep the broad factors as they typically tend to be provided as a chief factor, while specific factors have tended to receive extremely specific discussion.

However, to answer your very first statement, I do not believe that you fully read the title and introductory paragraph. So let me emphasize the part I am referencing:

"...this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements."

Decrying - the present participle of Decry, to publicly denounce.

This was not written as, nor ever intended to be, a list of complaints. It is intended to be a list of factors, that combine to provide something people can point to as reference to the claim that BG 3 currently feels too much like playing a DoS game instead of a BG game. For example, I actually prefer TB to RTwP, to the point where the TB mod for PKM salvaged that game for me. But I don't deny that it is a factor in why BG 3 can feel like DoS 3, even if I agree with the change and don't feel like it is something Larian needs to change.

The fact that you immediately assumed it is a list of complaints is telling, but I will nonetheless review as best I can. My intent is for the list to become an all inclusive list of what players are noticing as similar factors, then be narrowed down into things that can/should be changed and ones that cannot/should not by Larian.

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An amazing job, excellent summarize.
Thank you for your work.

Demoulius, I'm sry I didn't read all your last post but it's for a good reason I hope you will understand.
You absolutely don't get the poitn about this thread.

Here is why I stopped to read after 4 or 5 points...
You said :
Originally Posted by Demoulius

1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?


This psot is NOT ABOUT COMPLAIN, it's about showing what didn't feel like BG. This is not about COMPLAINING, this is about RECORDING what make BG3 not feel like a BG-game.

So you should have said : "1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok." and that's all, cause there is nothing more to say.
I did somthing funny. I search the word "complain" in your post. You used it more than 20 times
How many times the OP used it in his post ? Not even once.
Did you get it ? Most of your post is off-topic and most of it just confirm what the OP said.


You are completely this guy who wants to convince us to like tomatoes when we just said tomatoes are not onions...

God, how I miss onions too...

Last edited by Zefhyr; 28/10/20 10:37 PM.
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+1.
I find all my criticism points in this list.

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Great list.

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
*snip*

So what I see is that the list can basicly be summed up in a variety of categories. Complaints. And often generic ones at that. Points where the game compares alot to DOS. Points where it compares to BG, but the opinion is that theres to little of these. And things that either seem to be bugs, incomplete features or things that just need to be adressed. Which is what the EA is for. Il list some feedback by each points why I do or do not see the merit behind it.

Generic complaints
1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class. 7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay) Combined these 2 because they are literally the same. Height giving advantage is a VERY frequently mentioned point of critisim. BG dident even have heigh (or lack thereof) so uh.... You all want a flatt world or something?
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS). Uh. Yeah? They use the same engine. Also its a dnd 5e rule. Attacking someone who cant see you gives you advantage. Whats the complaint?
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else. Food defenitly isent better then the greater or superior healing potions so this is just outright false.
27. Stealth sight cones. Why is this a complaint? It allows one to make use of stealth. Seriously why are the vision cones a complaint?
29. Limited to 1 summon per character. Might be for balance reasons, or engine related. There also arent many classes outside of necromancer or conjurers who can actually get multiple minions.
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause. The game is based on 5th ed dnd. Dnd is turn based. Making it real time would mean things like reactions etc would need major overhauls or simply wouldnt work. Cant run away from a melee threat as a wizard while also casting spells for example, which you CAN do in turn based.
33. Closeup character models for Portraits. Ive seen multiple games that use this system. Whats the complaint exactly?
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere. Fast travel is a QoL improvement. I mean. Why are these things issues that people complain about? If you dont like it just walk everywhere. THAT IS AN OPTION. You dont have to fast travel....
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2. Ok. So they used a voice actor they got experience working with? Why would this make it more or less BG or DOS? Cant they use ANY of the voice actors that have worked in their previous games?
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces. Its literally the same engine.
42. Merchant UI. What about it. Dont like it? Got improvements for it? What? Whats the complaint? Honestly the merchant UI from bg was dreadfull so I dont know why this would be something to complain about?
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices. Ok. So they got a barter system? What about it? Want to suggest improvements? BG actually dident give you a chance to barter so I guess that means its more closely tied to DOS but..... Why is the fact that you can raise rep in place of a barter system a bad thing?
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character. 19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later. Merged these 2 as they focus on the same thing.Yeah? What did you expect that you can rob them of everything up to and including their underwear and they would never notice?
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps. You dont like it I guess? What does this have to do with either BG or DOS though?
46. 4 party limit. Dnd is balanced around 4 man parties. Dont know what to tell you.
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers) SAME. ENGINE.
48. Hotbar UI. What bout it. You know what also had a hotbar? BG.
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them) seriously what the everliving **$_ why is this a complaint? What does this have to do with BG or DOS?
55. Lockpicking progress bar. Why is this a complaint?
58. Showing the percentage to-hit. Anyone who can do basic math and who understands how they can calculate odds will know that a die results can be directly translated to a percentage. 75% to hit is probably more clear for non DnD players then needing a 6 and up for a hit. Its a QoL improvement for non dnd players
61. Companions completely block movement. Hey guess what also blocks your movement in dnd? Your teammates.
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer. How is that a complaint? I mean seriously. Do people expect a totally different UI if they go into multiplayer or something?
66. No Fog of War. *sigh* the game DOES have fog of war. You can only vieuw a very limited area around your characters and unless you have LOS to creatures they are effectivly INVISIBLE to you. THAT. IS. FOG. OF. WAR.
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth. Ah I see we are putting 'players are offered tactical choices' as complaints now! What does this have to do with BG or DOS? You could do this in both of these games and im sure im plenty of other games as well.
68. No tracking of normal arrows. A QoL improvement is now complained about. Guess you want to keep in your inventory every now and again and check if you still have plenty of arrows but I think most players wont miss it.
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them). Look up the defenition of aimbotting please. Also most games that have a sort of 'ac' system have the AI targgeting the most vunerable targets first. Its tactical sense. Why is this a complaint? Do you want braindead AI to fight against?
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion. Must admit I dont know what this one is about. My assumption is the 'husband' zombie from the bog? Why is putting funny and/or usefull summons in the game seen as a bad thing?

So most of this above list imho can be tossed in the trash. It either has nothing to do with DOS nor BG or is complaining for the sake of complaining. Or just outright complaining that the game is moving forward with its time rather then holding on to bg1+2 features from 20 years ago.

Comparisons to DOS
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions. Yes they do use a very simular system compared to what they used for DOS.
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story. Does indeed follow the same formula as DOS. But dont see that as a bad thing per se.
11. Barrelmancy. Granted, way to many barrels in the game currently. Thats also why a new thread pops up about it almost daily.
12. Surfaces *everywhere* cantrips creation 13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage. Merged these 2. I feel that cantrips creating surfaces is indeed to powerfull and that seems to be the concensus on the forums as well. Outside of cantrips though? Outside of cantrips I havent really ran into THAT many.
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight. Thats what they need EA for to balance the encounters. But currently? Agree that some of the fights are TO hard considering were supposed to be in a hurry!
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions). I must be missing something. Flashy gimmicks? I dont really see what you mean by that Enemies using tons of consumables I agree with though.
17. No normal enemies. Define 'normal' please. Because ive seen plenty most of the enemies in the game are generic normal enemies actually.
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit). Agreed there. What a trap kit does you can do with thieves tools in pnp DND as well. And you also dont consume them with each lock either!
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat. Agreed. Thats feedback on encounters though. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS.
21. Chaining party members and movement system. Agreed, I personally hate the system. Specially considering how easy bg 1 and 2 managed to do multiple party member movement.
22. Shared inventory space. 23. Inventory management and UI. 24. Swap any gear on and off in combat. These 3 basicly all complain about the same thing, the current inventory UI. And agreed. Can use some work. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS though.
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc) Agreed. Some of the flashy animations are overly flashy for what they are doing. (jumping beeing a good example) but at the same time it makes it more visible that something is going on.

So this list was alot shorter but I do agree with alot of it. Point is though, the game is made in the divinity engine and made by Larian so obviously its going to have some simularities in areas.

Comparisons to BG
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby. Guess which game basicly has the same starting premise? Baldurs gate 2. Outside of you not beeing on a vessel or starting on a beach the intro is pretty much identical.
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning. [color:#FFCCCC]Gu
ess what game you could also only customize 1 character in? Baldurs Gate.[/color]
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short. Do me a favour. Go into baldurs gate. And grab a book or look at an item description. Whats that? You could look up item descriptions and many BG books but most were very short as well? Oh inmagine that.

List abit shorter but some of the complaints why its to much like DOS could also apply to bg.

Genuinge critcism
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.) This is something that really needs to be adressed. Giving everyone a feat that was restricted to the rogue robs both the rogue of his identity as well as unbalancing the game in other classes their favour.
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells. Agreed. Not sure why thats a thing at all. Although granted some spells can be cast on others as well in which case I understand it. Guess they just need to remove the un-needed confirmation.
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat. I do notice xp for conversations sometimes but agree that non-combat options should be equally rewarded.
57. No need to identify magic items. Agreed. Needs to be added.
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats. Agreed. Needs to be removed. Thats a fighter subclass (Champion I believe) feature and shouldnt be available to everyone! That said, seems like a left over feature from the engine.
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted. Yup, agreed. Its because of the way in which line of sight can be drawn. Incidentily also why magic missles can miss, which shouldnt be the case!
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location. Agree that its inclusion would be better.
64. Cannot adjust starting gear. Agreed. Should be defenitly changed.
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.). Agreed but at the same time I can see the reason why. Adding memorable things that dont really give you an over powered imbalance but have some nice quirks fits in nicely with DnD. But it shouldnt overpower the usefullness for having spellcasters with those features either. Tough to balance those 2 things.
71. No random encounters. We dont know that. From what we have seen in the EA so far, sure. However we dont know whatever or not they would actually be in the final game or not.

So these I would classify as genuine criticism. It doesent have much to with simularities between DOS or BG though. Some of these should be added imo and a few are things that they are working on while others ive seen no mention off.

Potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed
4. World full of meaningless items. 5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them. Merged these 2. Item placement in the game is something that needs to be done but imo obviously something that simply isent done yet during EA.
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation. Havent noticed this myself. Maybe a craphical glitch?
28. Swap spells nearly at-will. Admit, lac of that doesent seem to be like an intentional feature imo. Picking spells by day is a big DnD feature.
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn. Seems like a bug, it shouldnt.
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage). Made mention of these myself. But overall game feedbacl. Not something that makes it DOS or BG per se....
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time. Seems like a bug? Considering you get a 'attack with off hand' ability if you dual wield its probably a graphical thing or hasent been seperated from how dual wielding works in DOS.
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”) Well if you have an abilitiy that basicly does the same thing a quik reskin or name swap doesent seem like a bad idea. If anything, it saves development time!
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt) 40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic. Combined these 2. Yeah alt needs to light up everything that you can interact with. Not sure why its not doing that currently but my guess is a incomplete feature.
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps. Think this is a bug. As the AI dident have this problem in DOS.
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait. Guess we can chalk that up to a bug or missing feature. Considering you can click on a portrait and it confirms that its an option but currently isent working makes me think its just needs to be fixed.
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat. Think thats a bug. Only had it happen once myself and every other time it takes its turns pretty quikly.
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation. Camera very obviously needs tweaking and/or overhaul. Its abit finicky atm and defenitly not working as intended.

So as the header 'potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed' implies..... The game is in EA. Theres bound to be bugs and unfinished features in it. Thats why we are participating in the EA and helping them find their features. And if you dont want to, well they gave everyone some very clear warnings about the state of the game so if you missed that its on you tbh.... Feel free to come back later at a stage where its more done or even when its fully launched if you dont want to see half-finished features.

So looking back over half of the list could be tossed in the trash in my opinion (generic complaints) while alot of the other points have merit but most are not specificly tied to BG or DOS. They use the same engine (that they made themselves) for Divinity so ofcourse it will look alike in some areas. Plenty of dnd features (like missing actions for example) just seem to not have been added yet and others (like most of the things in the last bug list) dont seem to be intentional. The game has been in EA for, what. 3 weeks? While they said they would need a year at the very least. Give Larian some time to take in the feedback and actually put in work to get things into the game.


I will ignore several general responses you provided:
- Responses that questioned why something was a complaint, because none of them are complaints.
- Responses that some things should have been compressed because I'm trying to strike a balance of including both General and Specific factors, with specific factors being broken out when there appears to be sufficient focus on it in this forum and Discord.

Lastly, my responses are not in numerical order but rather in the order you provided.

#29. This is categorically false, least of which because the Beast Master Ranger *in the EA* already runs into this problem by not being able to have their Find Familiar and Animal Companion at the same time. Never mind when spells like Conjure Animals, Find Steed, etc. comes into play. This restriction to 1 summon is a feature of DoS and does not exist in BG, where you were only limited by the capabilities of the engine at the time. Do note, that the DoS engine is perfectly capable of having more than 1 companion (Glut's army), so the restriction is clearly intentional by Larian.

#35. Already breaking my rule above, but the complete overabundance of British accents is also something I meant to include, but decided to make it specifically regarding Malady. You will notice I did not write the factor that they reused Amelia Tyler. It's that they had her do the *exact* Malady voice. Having the exact same voice from DoS in your ear, without any changes at all, is objectively a factor that makes you feel like the game is more DoS and BG. Amelia is an incredibly talented voice actress who is more than capable of varying her voice to be a different character. The choice to have her repeat the sounds of Malady was a conscious decision and consequently is a factor on the list.

#46. First, that is incorrect. D&D is not balanced around a 4 person party. Specifically, it if balanced for between 3-5 (based on the DMG), and WotC published adventures assume 4-5 players. Moreover, the BG series is well known for being 6 characters, while DoS is known for being 4 characters. Neither game has those as exclusive factors, but both those statements are true. So on the list it goes. Ironically, making it be 5 characters would make the game more 'unique', though 6 would make it more BG.

#48. This factor was tweaked slightly to better emphasize the specific factor. See the previous posts in this thread.

#58. You are correct regarding the capability to do the math....except no. Because the math requires you to know both your to-hit chance and the enemy's AC values, neither of which are immediately apparent. Again, not complaints, just factors. You do bring up a good point though that I will add to the factors, which is that you have full access to the stats of the enemy just by Examining the target (with the caveat that DoS did require you to level up a particular skill to get more information, while BG did not allow that at all).

#61. Incorrect, which leads me to believe you don't really know the rules of 5e. Which is fine because that's not what this discussion is about. Companions block movement in DoS, they don't in BG.

#66. That is both wrong (you can see creatures well before you party can) and not what Fog of War references.

#70. Admittedly I knew 'aimbotting' is not an accurate term, taking suggestions on something that better conveys the factor. Enemy AI perfect knowledge? This remains a factor, more so because DoS literally patched this exactly factor because every enemy had essentially Max stats for knowing the characters statistics. But it still famously happens in DoS and does not happen in BG, so it's a factor.

#17. Normal enemies refers to enemies that do nothing more than attack with their weapon, without any special moves, abilities, consumables, or throwables. BG had plenty of enemies like this, DoS practically had none. So its a factor.

#10. Not really sure how to respond to this besides agreeing with your statement of facts but disagreeing with the conclusions you draw? I listed roughly 10 elements to this factor (start as prisoner, on a vessel, mentally based enemies, etc.). BG 3 shares all 10 elements with DoS. BG 1 shares zero of those elements. BG 2 shares two as best I can count (prisoner, freed by outside attack). So across 20 possible times to have those elements occur in the introductory areas of BG 1 and BG 2, it occurred 2 times. In DoS it correct 10 out of 10, in BG 3, also 10 out of 10. That's why it's a factor, and that's why the most commonly typed response in chat when Swen did the first gameplay reveal was BEACH BEACH BEACH.

#53. Did you actually play BG 1 and BG 2? You could literally make a party of entirely custom characters.

#56. Again, this is just wrong. Here is a link to the books provided in the BG series. Please just do a spot sampling. History/lore Books in DoS, and BG 3, are a few sentences at most and usually contain text in < > brackets to indicate a summary. Compare that to your spot sampling, where there are several paragraphs of lore for each book in BG. Ironically, this can easily flip from a DoS factor to a BG factor if Larian just copy + pastes the lore text and then updates them based on 'current events' at this point in the Faerun timeline.

Hopefully I didn't miss any!

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One area I feel definitely needs attention is enemy reactions when attacked by a stealthed character.

I’m finishing up the Underdark running the whole thing with just a Drow rogue in my party without any of the npc’s. I’ve only rested in camp once to boot. This is primarily due to the fact that monsters just stand there and do nothing if they don’t see who’s attacking them, so you can just snipe and hide until all of the enemies are dead. It’s a little time consuming, but it’s actually easier than running a full party 4.
I’d like to see monsters / enemies roam in a random direction if they’re being attacked and don’t see the attacker. This will at least force the player to reposition and potentially lose a “prime sniping spot”. It would also create the chance the monster / enemy would randomly advance toward the player.

I’d just like to see a little more difficulty when fighting 2 minotaurs at the same time than watching them stand there and become horsey pin-cushions.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).




Sadly yes. smirk

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