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The fact that this game feels more like DOS than BG isn't even a matter of opinion, it's a fact, so there is no point even trying to argue that.

Capturing the aesthetic and essence of BG I and II was the main thing Larian had to do to make it a "BG Game", and they did not do that. Is it a worse game for it? No, it is still a great game, it just doesn't feel like Baldurs Gate. I wish people would stop trying to defend this fact, there is no good that can come from defending the un-defendable. Unfortunately the only way to get a better product from any company on this planet, is to complain and give feedback. If all you do is give credit to the company, you get what they give you without further ado. Larian is making this game to make money, not because they are your friends or because they are super cool. Treat a company like a company.

Now, I hope all you guys complaining that this is not a BG game realise that the story, soundtrack, aesthetic etc are not going to change at this point, EA or not. It's already too late to change most of what is in the game.

What we can push for is mostly QOL improvements, like character pathing, UI, bartering, barelmancy, 20+hp Goblins, npc's packed with scrolls and special arrows, etc.

Last edited by Dogmatis; 01/11/20 08:34 AM.

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Originally Posted by Dogmatis
The fact that this game feels more like DOS than BG isn't even a matter of opinion, it's a fact, so there is no point even trying to argue that.

Capturing the aesthetic and essence of BG I and II was the main thing Larian had to do to make it a "BG Game", and they did not do that. Is it a worse game for it? No, it is still a great game, it just doesn't feel like Baldurs Gate. I wish people would stop trying to defend this fact, there is no good that can come from defending the un-defendable. Unfortunately the only way to get a better product from any company on this planet, is to complain and give feedback. If all you do is give credit to the company, you get what they give you without further ado. Larian is making this game to make money, not because they are your friends or because they are super cool. Treat a company like a company.

Now, I hope all you guys complaining that this is not a BG game realise that the story, soundtrack, aesthetic etc are not going to change at this point, EA or not. It's already too late to change most of what is in the game.

What we can push for is mostly QOL improvements, like character pathing, UI, bartering, barelmancy, 20+hp Goblins, npc's packed with scrolls and special arrows, etc.


Well that's precisely what this thread is about. How to make it a BG game without stripping it of what's best in DOS, giving it back it's identity without going back to year 2000.

Last edited by virion; 01/11/20 09:52 AM.

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I think there are three factions:
- Those who actually hoped BG3 would be a DOS3.
- Those who hope it would not be DOS3, for all the things they didn't like in DOS.
- Those you don't care much.

I am part of the second group, as for me combat in DOS was always some sort of ironic running gag with all its ridiculous ground effects dependency, barrelmancy and the fact that if would would attack a simple shepherd you would find out, he has double your hp, attack with a poison throwing staff, set the whole group on fire in one turn and has like 20 combat skills.
And there is way to much of this in BG3.
But anyway I can only complain to myself for thinking Larian would or could create a game where combat is not an intended huge joke.
I can live with a not so good combat system however, if the storytelling is good enough.
Unfortunately it isn't, as especially the companions over-act, react to things strangely or in wrong order, whatever, that's already discussed elsewhere. Also here, typical Larian disability to provide real good stories, aside of snappy npcs.

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Originally Posted by Grantig
I think there are three factions:
- Those who actually hoped BG3 would be a DOS3.
- Those who hope it would not be DOS3, for all the things they didn't like in DOS.
- Those you don't care much.

I am part of the second group, as for me combat in DOS was always some sort of ironic running gag with all its ridiculous ground effects dependency, barrelmancy and the fact that if would would attack a simple shepherd you would find out, he has double your hp, attack with a poison throwing staff, set the whole group on fire in one turn and has like 20 combat skills.
And there is way to much of this in BG3.
But anyway I can only complain to myself for thinking Larian would or could create a game where combat is not an intended huge joke.
I can live with a not so good combat system however, if the storytelling is good enough.
Unfortunately it isn't, as especially the companions over-act, react to things strangely or in wrong order, whatever, that's already discussed elsewhere. Also here, typical Larian disability to provide real good stories, aside of snappy npcs.


Well most of the people here agree BG3 == good game BUT it lacks something. In the end what you listed here ( combat, characters having strange reactions sometimes, barrelmancy.

And In my post below I'm trying to pin point it.


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You forget a big category :
Those who liked DoS3 but hope to have the game Larian promises which means they hoped BG3 would be BG3

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Based on my discussion with OP, Zephyr and others I think we agree ultimately BG3 is a good game but a game that lacks" something". That something is a either a feature we can trace down and describe either us being old. We hope it's the first thing. Hence why the exercise below.

Link to list here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cOIKHlr1FoWGjJTrVv6AkQzgA6Q-Dq6UeiMIW3rWHDI/edit?usp=sharing

Please check out the below instructions. In point #1+2+3 described what is visible in this list in each column and #4 is what I want from you guys.

1) The OP created a list that is a list of features that are exactly the same in BG3 as they are in DOS 2.
2) Based on this I created a list of how those features compare to BG2(Where they the same or not? If yes, how did they work?).

Those two lists above are purely objective. They are facts. If you think something in one of those two lists above is wrong don't hesitate to let us know. There's nothing to agree on here. Either a feature is there in the way described in the list or isn't. I didn't explain all the details in some cases(like surfaces) as I simply didn't use them so often in BG2 for instance so my knowledge in this area is a bit shallow.


3) I added a comment explaining:

A) How this feature impacted BG2(combat, team management, character building)
B) How can it be implemented in BG3

The point is here to get the best of those features that created memorable gameplay and try to move them to the reality of BG3. For those which are game defining. Which of them are game-defining? Well... To some extent, we will cover this in this topic.


4) I highlighted every row in a color.

A) Red: Should be removed from the list as they either were included in BG2 in the exact same form (and were also a problem there), weren't because of a different D&D edition, or weren't but BG2 version of the feature is simply a downgrade(like pick locking progression bar in BG3), or are a major thread but aren't a difference BG2 vs BG3 but rather a difference BG3 vs D&D rules.

B) Yellow: Those are subjects to be discussed. Those points either aren't part of a larger thread, weren't discussed at all or were discussed very briefly but threads quickly died down.( Random encounters for instance. I didn't hear many voices in their favor even if they played a major part in BG2 and as so this feature might be considered obsolete).

C) Green: Those subjects that are either major threads or major elements BG2 was known for that aren't present in this opus. Descriptions of items could be one of them. I included some minor features that seem to be a detail but ultimately weren't in BG2 and changing them back to resemble the old version would be more of a gesture towards BG fans without requiring major changes in the game.

IMPORTANT: WE TALK ABOUT +/- 80 FEATURES AT ONCE. DO NOT LOOSE SIGHT OF THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. WE WANT TO TRACE DOWN FEATURES DEFINING GAMEPLAY OF BG AND NOT DISCUSS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS THE COLOR ASSIGNED TO A SUBJECT. THAT'S WHAT MADE BG2 GREAT.

Example: Random encounters
Pros and cons listed in the list.
Very rarely brought up on this forum. Game defining? Not really. You can drop them of BG2 and still have the same game.


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Original list with my input on the issues (no one I recon cares). For refence I am a DM in PnP and started with 2e AD&D and played all DnD games in computer since OG Eye of the Beholder

Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

1. Choice of color palette
Zero F's are given original wolfenstein is also fully different than last wolfenstein.

2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
Yes this is DoS style.

3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
This is a weak argument, temple of elemental evil has almost all your characters being build and most/best npc's join you in homlet. yes it is DoS, but yes its also ToEE.

4. World full of meaningless items
Yes and I love it! In PnP I use alot of "meaningless items" for my players as trade items for when they hit the next town/city. However its a bit overdone, less 1 lbs + 1 coin items would be nice

5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
Yes this is anoying, but most anoying is that you cant really see if you opened and "owned" container (the one that shows a red icon). Instead make it closed icon and opened icon, instead of color

6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
If you are a 5e DM and you dont use enviroment stop playing PnP, if you dont like it in a RPG campaign in a computer game you are stuck in 1990! Since you cannot really use spells creative as with PnP, enviroment helps creativity

7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
Uhrm, there are actuall rules for height advantage in the dmg/ph for the game! Anyone complaining has no clue how battle encounters work in DnD

8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
Mey, tooltip shows it in the left bottom corner at to hit

9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
This is the main thing with 5E ruleset. Every class is a swiss army knife. Everyone can stealth, everyone can open locks (being proficient makes you better, not just skilled). Everyone can use a scroll is meh and having some bonus actions is a creative way of dealing with turnbased rounds.

10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.

11. Barrelmancy
Yes this is an issue, I stacked them all in the campsite and it bugged my save game. Gunpowder I would remove or make very special (its an "magic" item in 2nd edition I believe in 5e also). The alcohol barrels I would like to see as trade goods. Oil is ok, water is ok

12. Surfaces *everywhere*
This is something from DoS but it works very well in DnD as difficult terrain. Alot of encounters in the PnP adventures have some form of difficult terrain, like lava, fire, rockpiles, entangling vines etc. Its not overdone imho. A bit less "water surfaces" would be nice. The issues with cantrips creating surfaces is something that is logical, but not covered in PnP 5e very good. However I am going to use it more as its "logical"

13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
Not overpowered, you just need to manage your movement better, works for a pc game, not really for Mind Eye Theather PnP style (if you dont use battlemaps)

14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
Yes this is an issue, not that its everywhere, just that it heals. As tradegoods it works.

15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
No this is not true. Your lack of skills and knowledge of your characters doesnt mean the encounters are bad. Most heavy encounters have other ways to deal with them. In my first playthrough I had problems with minotaur encounter, bullete encounter when it joined a different encounter near the tree and fighting goblins from the entrance to the camp (second playthrough it was better and thrid playthrough I did the "work arround")

16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
This is also not true, but those that are are the same as with different games. Why would an npc/mob not be allowed to use the same tools as the players. Also if you lack skills in dealing with them dont play.

17. No normal enemies
What are normal enemies? Goblins? Brain-eaters? Undead? Bandits? Owlbear? Hag? Redcaps? Harpies? These are in the monstrous manual for 5e.

18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
Trap kit? Didnt find it my 3 playthroughs, or is it disarm kit?

19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
Yes this is an issue and should be resolved

20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
This is part of computer games, also PnP battles take much longer than in game. also Bullete has recommended/average HP of 94, Minotaur 76, Goblin Boss 21, Goblin 7. So if you have problems with HP go compain at DnD creaters not BG3 creaters. (see montrous manual)

21. Chaining party members and movement system
Wait what now?

22. Shared inventory space
Yeh, I miss the rules of moving my rogue to the wizard to hand over the potion of healing so he can use it. yeh ofcourse not

23. Inventory management and UI
This is anoying yes (management not UI). Containers moving to top when you put something in it, instead of staying at the next open spot is anoying if you want to put all books in one container

24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
This was in BG and BG 2 aswell, yes its not in the rules, but this is the liberty you need for making pc games. (this was in all other computer games based on DnD too)

25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
meh

26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
meh

27. Stealth sight cones
meh

28. Swap spells nearly at-will
what now? I cannot swap prepared spells with unprepared without resting. Also if you accidently select MM instead of EB I would love to have the ability to change it.

29. Limited to 1 summon per character
Meh

30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
This is rule approved, if you get knocked down you need to spend your next turn to get up

31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
Meh, yes its DoS and not BG2, but what works works,

32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
You get this item technically at level 5 (though we have level cap) and the use is limited. At this point you should have 2 times attacking fighters and lvl 3 fireballs.

33. Closeup character models for Portraits
Meh, make a picture of yourself upload it

34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
yes this is a bit of a shame, though its part of a pc game. Easily solved by giving and item and explaining how teleport/fast travel points work. However fast travel drops random encounters. This is an issue with Larian games since divine divinity.

35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
Yes this happens when a voice actor is ussed she is also in pathfinder kingmaker, go complain about that.

36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
My rogue did this wonderfully in my second playthrough

37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
Meh, shame snowflakes skills are not in.

38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
Meh, if it works in the past it doesnt need to change

39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
meh

40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
meh if it works in the past it doesnt need to change

41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
actually this happens sometimes, but its because they cant move through characters. The AI will stop moving if you jump over fire and the group cant reach that character without going through it. Its lack of player skill if it happens.

42. Merchant UI
Meh, if it works in the past it doesnt need to change. However I nicer UI to begin with would be nice

43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
This is a feature not a bug and if you give me free stuff I am more happy to do something for you. It should reset again at some point though

44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
This is a good thing and happens in real life too. I distract while my friend lifts your wallet. Real Life illusionist anyone?

45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
This is not true, we have 2 main maps in early access and a large portion of smaller maps. Games in the past could not handle this, its an upgrade not a bug

46. 4 party limit
Yes this is anoying, however alot of games have alot of different party sizes, I would like to see this go to 5 or 6, but if we get 4 we get 4. It will force a reballance of all encounters though

47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
This is a shame, but it is as it is.

48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
Meh

49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
This is a gameplay thing, freedom for a game and it helps out when you character dies in a spot where if you resurrect him/her he/she dies again. Also be happy you get resurrection as

50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
meh, this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
this is anoying but has nothing to do with BG or DoS

52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
This is bad, more xp for quest rewards would be nice

53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
if you are going to complain about meeting all the other characters so fast, you cannot complain about this. That said, being able to build your party from start is classical DnD, though not even BG

54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

55. Lockpicking progress bar
this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
Be glad that there is lore in the game in the form of books.

57. No need to identify magic items
Yes this is a valid complaint, however after discovering an item for the first time and you do a second playthrough its more a hazzle

58. Showing the percentage to-hit
wauw, the complains are getting absurd. Instead of asking for an armor class number and figuring out what number you need to throw you are given a percentage. Feetback on dice rolls yes, but it being shown as percentage is absurd nitpicking

59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
this is the same as 73 I think (didnt understand this one until I went down to 73). This should not be possible unless class specific (champion and bard I believe)

60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
yes this is part of 3d models and world instead of 2d world in BG. complaining about this, is complaing about electric trains instead of steam trains. Game technology evolves

61. Companions completely block movement
as it supposed to, when was the last time you could walk through a different person?

62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
meh

63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
has nothing to do with BG and DoS

64. Cannot adjust starting gear
you cannot adjust starting skills, which is more anoying, its a valid point though

65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
Check the DMG treasure tables, there is enough stuff there that does the same.

66. No Fog of War
This is basically a bullox complaint. Fog of War is for strategy games not for RPG's

67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
This is very good, however not good implementated. For stealth characters not in combat, time should go to round mode. This however has nothing to do with diference between BG and DoS. It a faulty design

68. No tracking of normal arrows
If I recall correctly this was also not in BG, but cant recall as it is more inventory management we do not need

69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
yes this is bad, but again not BG vs DoS

70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
This is also not true, many times my frontliner got hit, also agro management is a thing.

71. No random encounters
yes this is anoying and has been part of larian games since Divine divinity.

72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
Wait what?

*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
anoying and should be part of a class feature (believe champion and bard have this)

74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)
zero f's are given. Music score is great. A bit more ambient sound would be nice, but music is good.



Overall this list has very view things that validate the claim that the game is DoS 3 instead of BG 3. Alot of things noted down are game mechanic specific and not related to DoS or DnD game rules. Alot of complaints about the DnD rules are faulty (especially the HP complaint and no standard monster).

The BG games are about the world and the adventures you do within this world (forgotten realms) and the lore of the realms is very good implementated. The game mechanics and implementation of the ruleset is for DnD 5e and not DnD 2e on which BG 1 was based. Anyone who complains that BG 1 is not BG 3 need to check the difference in the ruleset and understand that things work very differently. By choosing DnD 5e as ruleset this game will be different than BG 1. The implementation of 5e rules is done ok and the lore for BG and Forgoten Realms is done very good.

The list provided is a very bad list and hopefully this post will provide some counter balance to those who dont understand what is a forgoten realms based game centered arround Baldurs gate.

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Originally Posted by Shinshi
Original list with my input on the issues (no one I recon cares). For refence I am a DM in PnP and started with 2e AD&D and played all DnD games in computer since OG Eye of the Beholder



You're misunderstanding.

Considering the amount of time we spend writing those posts I think it answers the question of "caring".
As so I appreciate the time you spent answering but you missed the entire point. The original list is in fact pointless and doesn't prove or claims anything on it's own.
No one denies that OP included.

The list linked in my comment above was the point of taking this somewhere constructive. Right now you're replicating the issues on page 2+3+4 of this thread.


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Thank you so much for compiling this list. Really looking forward to reading Gimme back BG. I really tried in Feedback forms to get the point about character portraits and a certain style and what BG2 did right across to Larian and hope human eyes will read them. I totally get what you are saying from the artistic point - reduction seems to be a key feature to really make the world more meaningful. It also means reducing flexibility in some places (as you pointed out items making certain spells kind of pointless)

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Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.

Objective: There is food.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like TES 6, or FO 5. Maybe closer to TES, because sword and sorcery? If I'd come straight here from Skyrim, I'd be more inclined to argue that it feels like that game instead, or Oblivion.

So it's easy to say "we're arguing facts here", but we're really not. We're arguing how it feels. This isn't objective, it's subjective. There's a lot of back and forth here, both in this thread, and on the forums that bears that out. I still find it amusing that people that feel differently are shouted down, or ridiculed for not jumping on the bandwagon. "There are no wrong feelings, unless your feelings don't align with mine" seems to be the FotM, (Flavor of the Month). Sadly, both sides of this argument are valuable feedback. It shows that despite how vehemently one decides to push their feelings about something, others feel differently about it. Gaining that perspective is really important at this stage in development. Some things can, and will be adjusted between now and release. Other things, no matter how vehemently someone may decry it, will remain. I don't have a master list of these items, and neither will I pretend to have some foresight into what those items will be. I can, however, be fairly certain that this is the case. This isn't my first rodeo. I've been in Betas before, and I've been involved in the development of NWN modules, both by someone else, and by myself, and know what feedback is valuable, and which is "but it's not what I want". Now, that last can vary wildly, and context is king for determining that, but FO 3 was reasonably successful, NV arguably more so, and both are wildly different from FO 1 and 2.

So I'm not going to get my self all worked up over "But it's not the same", when in reality, I didn't come here looking for that. I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did, although some of that is going to be impossible; I won't be able to experience my "first time playing a cRPG" again, which is something I did feel with BG. I can, however, get the experience of a game that can have me looking up and realizing that it's sunrise, and I've been at my desk for 8 hours. I got that from the Infinity Engine games, and from more than a few other games, and if this game can deliver that experience with an FR feel, I'm down with that. Given the existance of MP out of the gate, I hope there's a toolset similar to NWN, because I know at least one person playing now that would be all over trying to recreate some NWN experiences with it. Because at the end of the day, "feeling like BG", the game, means just that, transporting me into the FR. I don't need the actual city, I don't need the original cast, and I don't want the original look, I want the experience. So far, the game hasn't done a bad job of that. It needs stuff, to be sure, but it's still in an Alpha state, as far as I can tell, which means there's plenty of time for adjustments to be made.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.


What a baid faith.

More, the fact that barrels feels like Tomb Raider for you (even it's a fallacious argument here) it doesn't change anything.
The point is it doesn't feel like BG. So who cares if it feels more DoS or TR ? At the end, the fact is (and you confirm it) it doesn't feel BG which is a major issue for a game called "BG3".


More, it's being geniune or pretentious to think that "feelings" are subjectives, they are the results of all the experiences we had and all the efforts the creator put in their work.

Denying the importance of the creator and his will in the feelings his work gives is... impossible to understand for me. hypocrisis ? bad faith ? ingenuity ? absurd ?



Originally Posted by robertthebard
I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did

Since everything is "subjective" for you, you should cross your fingers cause, with your logic, Larian have no power on your feelings.

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This concerns the "Gimme back BG" spreadsheet.

Generally I have the feeling that when reviewing points of the list, the point of view in the "comments" section of the sheet is that cold mechanics are all that make a game, not counting for choices in design and feeling. I don't think this holds up to reality in many points. Also it seems to me that the comment logic is often "can we bring it back to BG2?" where an obvious no colors something red, rather than discussing or refining thoughts.

Specifically,I don't get following points being red on the list:

18) I think this point is phrased in a way where the emphasis is on an item being from DoS, rather than not being true to D&D rules - the golden pantaloons in BG2 have nothing to do with it. The problem is the similarity to DoS more than any change from BG2. So it seems rather yellow to me.

19) This rather seems to adress a bug than a general game mechanic. The change would be: fix bugs. So green?

22) and 23) concerning UI design choices - why would that automatically color them red? All discussion off?

24) Talking about being constructive - the "need to point this out" is simply because it's there, needs change and used to be different. Also: maybe at least yellow?

25) The devil is in the details. This gives games a distinct feel, many small details in sum become game defining. At least yellow.

28) Why in the Nine Hells is this commented on as being "a separate topic"? Yellow. Is this not the list to define and nail down things big and small that made BG2 great or at least gave it a distinct feel?
In this case, preparing a spell meant you had to take a specific action in game, that passed time and was not always possible to be able to use some spell. Being able to do so without even a symbolic action could be better design, or it makes decision making lackluster. At any rate, this smells of Yellow.

32) Again, why is this not yellow? It reads as if "Well, BG2 was balanced poorly, so let's not even discuss this". Obviously the point was made because something felt better in BG2 than in BG3 now in terms of using or even abusing items. So why not
yellow?

I could go on and on, but I guess I should return to my general statement in the beginning:
The devil is in the details. Design and feeling are important, not only cold game mechanics - players interacting with mechanics make the full gaming experience. All abuse and cheese can not be exterminated - but there are such things as artistic cohesion. Cheesing with BARRELS feels more wrong than cheesing with mage spells in BG2. I know those things are very subjective, but then again, I think there is a way of discussing finer points without drifting of to discussions of taste.


EDIT: Also point 39 is about the mechanic in post Throne of Bhaal BG2 where pressing ALT would highlight items and containers rather than just giving us a little textbox without showing WHERE something is in BG3













Last edited by Atama; 01/11/20 07:10 PM. Reason: Typos and syntax
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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.
Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.

Objective: There is food.
Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like TES 6, or FO 5. Maybe closer to TES, because sword and sorcery? If I'd come straight here from Skyrim, I'd be more inclined to argue that it feels like that game instead, or Oblivion.

So it's easy to say "we're arguing facts here", but we're really not. We're arguing how it feels. This isn't objective, it's subjective. There's a lot of back and forth here, both in this thread, and on the forums that bears that out. I still find it amusing that people that feel differently are shouted down, or ridiculed for not jumping on the bandwagon. "There are no wrong feelings, unless your feelings don't align with mine" seems to be the FotM, (Flavor of the Month). Sadly, both sides of this argument are valuable feedback. [...]

So I'm not going to get my self all worked up over "But it's not the same", when in reality, I didn't come here looking for that. I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did, although some of that is going to be impossible; I won't be able to experience my "first time playing a cRPG" again, which is something I did feel with BG.


We really have a totally different approach to this.

Spoiler alert only cause my answer is long and .... maybe too detailed? I'm probably repeating myself a lot.

1st part of what I'm doing:
Objective : There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.
Objective : Different or same mechanic in BG2


2nd part I'm trying to achieve through this thread:
Objective: Does it impact the gameplay in BG3. How did this mechanic work before.
Subjective: Did it serve the gameplay better in BG2? If yes, how?

Most people need a reminder they are not unique. I don't. So no need to reference the rest of your comment in my opinion(no hard feelings).

You stopped half-way in what I'm trying to do. Most of the people did when reading the list listed in OP. Most of this 1st list is a summary of autism screeching from the deepest part of this forum. This thread is literally an attempt to translate whining into feedback that actually leads somewhere.


Why would you replace a feature that works better in BG3 with a feature from BG2? No reason to do that.

Why do this in case of a feature that doesn't change QoL or mechanics ? Only to tickle BG fans on their bellies. No other reason, but it could be a way. Is it necessary? Meh, depends on personal preferences.

DID ANY OF THOSE MECHANICS WORK BETTER: MAYBE.
Why , how, which one, how did it impact the gameplay, how could it impact the game negatively, how could it improve it. Welll those are the things we can talk about. And MAYBE, just MAYBE it will turn out the main things that defined BG2 could be summed up in a bunch of feature. Features that are for now solved in the same way as DOS2 for ( MAYBE ) no good reason.

Maybe is the key word because there's no fucking way I'm organizing play-tests of BG2 just to prove anything lol


if you feel "BG3 is DOS3 " is the wrong question turn it around man.
What feature makes BG3 a sequel of BG2?
- story +setting
- D&D mechanics [with minor/major changes. There's separates feedback for every single one of them]
- Characters ..... [no spoiles, i just checked data mining thread :P ]

It has everything, right? Well... details matter. Hence why we have list listing as many features as Isaac found. And I'm trying to make the " What feature of BG2 we want in BG3" thread. That's pretty much it.

I think there's nothing unhealthy about that approach.




Last edited by virion; 03/11/20 06:56 PM.

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Originally Posted by Atama
This concerns the "Gimme back BG" spreadsheet.

Generally I have the feeling that when reviewing points of the list, the point of view in the "comments" section of the sheet is that cold mechanics are all that make a game, not counting for choices in design and feeling. I don't think this holds up to reality in many points. Also it seems to me that the comment logic is often "can we bring it back to BG2?" where an obvious no colors something red, rather than discussing or refining thoughts.

Specifically,I don't get following points being red on the list:

18) I think this point is phrased in a way where the emphasis is on an item being from DoS, rather than not being true to D&D rules - the golden pantaloons in BG2 have nothing to do with it. The problem is the similarity to DoS more than any change from BG2. So it seems rather yellow to me.

Both games introduced new items. Arguably every point in this list arose as an issue of similarity to DOS2 and the game not having it's own identity than anything else. Is asking to not introduce new items from other lore a thing to do if BG creators introduced they own and not many people had issues with it? Yes, they also had a backdash from D&D fans back then for this as far as i heard ^^ 20 years and people didn't change.


19) This rather seems to adress a bug than a general game mechanic. The change would be: fix bugs. So green?

Red cause while being an issue to address nothing to reference in BG2 here.


22) and 23) concerning UI design choices - why would that automatically color them red? All discussion off?


Not really, I just couldn't think of a single feature from BG2 UI that was arguably better more than just " different".
Reinstalled BG2 and playing again through I figured out spells list didn't become overwhelmed with usable items. That alone was a way clearer way to organize them after me. Switched it to yellow.

From the esthetical point of view though it would be equivalent to " bring it back to bg 2" for the sake of doing it. I really want to stay away from that approach. It would be the most obvious way to pat BG fans on the back but is there more to it? Personally, I didn't see it.


24) Talking about being constructive - the "need to point this out" is simply because it's there, needs change and used to be different. Also: maybe at least yellow?

Changed to yellow. No need to point it out came from the assumption it's linked to EA. Adjusted the comment to reflect it.

25) The devil is in the details. This gives games a distinct feel, many small details in sum become game defining. At least yellow.

Changed the color. Difficult one cause this one impacts only the estethic of the games while not affecting the gameplay that much in pure theory. It's a good example when it comes to illustrating the issue around discussing game features.

28) Why in the Nine Hells is this commented on as being "a separate topic"? Yellow. Is this not the list to define and nail down things big and small that made BG2 great or at least gave it a distinct feel?
In this case, preparing a spell meant you had to take a specific action in game, that passed time and was not always possible to be able to use some spell. Being able to do so without even a symbolic action could be better design, or it makes decision making lackluster. At any rate, this smells of Yellow.

Considering resting is "spammable" in both games right now OR AT LEAST looks to be story wise the fact you can change spells without resting seemed to me like a QoL improvement more than a major mechanic change. Switching to yellow based on your comment. It's true that in BG2 you had very limited cases where you had to hurry (quest based time limit) or very long fights where you couldn't switch spells or rest.

32) Again, why is this not yellow? It reads as if "Well, BG2 was balanced poorly, so let's not even discuss this". Obviously the point was made because something felt better in BG2 than in BG3 now in terms of using or even abusing items. So why not
yellow?

I wouldn't go in this directions mostly because item power is based on the enemies we face. Which are based on the D&D 5th edition instead of the 2nd. I pointed out here some items were also overpowered as an issue in BG2 more as a side note. Balancing of item power vs enemies seems an obvious step and BG2 doesn't have a clear way of approaching this subject.







I could go on and on, but I guess I should return to my general statement in the beginning:
The devil is in the details. Design and feeling are important, not only cold game mechanics - players interacting with mechanics make the full gaming experience. All abuse and cheese can not be exterminated - but there are such things as artistic cohesion. Cheesing with BARRELS feels more wrong than cheesing with mage spells in BG2. I know those things are very subjective, but then again, I think there is a way of discussing finer points without drifting of to discussions of taste.


I agree there are ways of doing so but if you go through DOS vs BG3 topics or even the earlier pages of this one you will end up with something insane. BG fans who are at least 20 years old and most of the times 30+ are not able to talk to each other. Some ....some of the bg fans are dead by now too ^^''' Maybe the drastic difference in demography causes this problem in discussion. Maybe it's a normal problem on forums . But getting as close to cold mechanics as I could seemed the way to go to even start a discussion about this subject without getting lost in BS.

EDIT: Also point 39 is about the mechanic in post Throne of Bhaal BG2 where pressing ALT would highlight items and containers rather than just giving us a little textbox without showing WHERE something is in BG3

Thx for that one













[VIRION EDIT: MY ANSWERS ARE ABOVE UNDER EACH POINT]

Thank you for your comments so far mate, I appreciate it .


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Virion,
I read your list some days ago.
There was one point, from memory, I didn't completely agree. It was about the items.
It's true, there is basics items on BG1 and 2 like swords and armor but this is far from what Larian does.
Indeed there is no spoons, dolls, flutes, plates, etc.
And I think it's an interesting poitn because it really shows the difference beetwen BG and DoS.
Th best item to show this difference his the... "broken lute".
Typically it's a completely, absolutely useless item but it's funny. It matchs with the intention of DoS which is to create a funny and colorfull world.
You doesn't have it in BG. You have basics swords to drop on your ennemies and it makes sens, it can be usefull (well, especially in the one at the beginning when the items just... get mega rusty.) and at no time it's funny.

So speaking about what participate to give a DoS feels instead of a BG one, I think the items have a part more important than we could imagine at first.
All this funny and completely useless stuffs you can find in BG3 absolutely didn't match with the original BG.

So, I'm not saying it should be removed but I would like to point out and for the people to acknowledge it is a factor which can participate to give the DoS 3 feelings.

Isn't it ?

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@Zefhyr : I modified the list adding the notion of many items with no usage cluttering the inventory.

When it comes to "funny items". I don't know man, Minsc had a giant space hamster in his pocket. Edwin and his gender changing scroll was a thing too. In BG ( from memory) they used to be more linked to characters. Golden pantalons excluded.

Also while a list of items that makes BG3 DOS3 instead is a starting point I think what we want from BG2 to make BG3 is rather the way to take it.
In that context....less items? Less jokes? I guess that could be considered a factor but I think that's us getting old :p

Last edited by virion; 03/11/20 09:35 PM.

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As I said on the first page, I think that OP did a great job with this list and you're doing a great job with the google doc.

What I don't really understand is your goal.

=> If the goal of the thread is only to point out differences between BG1/2 and BG3, I'm not really interrested even if it's it's "interresting".
=> If the goal is to create a list of realistic suggestion that could both increase BG3's experience AND the feeling of a Baldur's Gate video game, I'm totally interrested.

So what is it about ?

Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Virion,
I read your list some days ago.
There was one point, from memory, I didn't completely agree. It was about the items.
It's true, there is basics items on BG1 and 2 like swords and armor but this is far from what Larian does.
Indeed there is no spoons, dolls, flutes, plates, etc.
And I think it's an interesting poitn because it really shows the difference beetwen BG and DoS.
Th best item to show this difference his the... "broken lute".
Typically it's a completely, absolutely useless item but it's funny. It matchs with the intention of DoS which is to create a funny and colorfull world.
You doesn't have it in BG. You have basics swords to drop on your ennemies and it makes sens, it can be usefull (well, especially in the one at the beginning when the items just... get mega rusty.) and at no time it's funny.

So speaking about what participate to give a DoS feels instead of a BG one, I think the items have a part more important than we could imagine at first.
All this funny and completely useless stuffs you can find in BG3 absolutely didn't match with the original BG.

So, I'm not saying it should be removed but I would like to point out and for the people to acknowledge it is a factor which can participate to give the DoS 3 feelings.

Isn't it ?


I totally agree with this.
The feeling of DoS but also, and it's way more important to me : it's just totally boring.

When you loot on BG1/2, there are "many useless stuff" but you can process the information quickly. You know what to do and you know what could be important.
In DoS and that's exaclty the same in BG3, you have to carry everything because... maybe it will be usefull... a quest... crafting..... no ? Meh, ok I'll deal with it later...

This + the 60 types of foods + the fork, bones, skulls, plates, cup, bowl, dolls,...
The item management is unecessarily complicated and boring. I really don't understand what Larian's trying to do with this.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 03/11/20 09:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus



=> If the goal is to create a list of realistic suggestion that could both increase BG3's experience AND the feeling of a Baldur's Gate video game, I'm totally interrested.



This. The list of similarities are a starting point. Otherwise, we might as well discuss every single gameplay aspect and it would turn out every single one of us has their own idea.

So yeah, BG3 in the context of BG2 kind of thing.


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Ok thanks for the answer.
So I'll watch your job and share my ideas when your list is going to be done.

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If there will be list of suggestions how to increase Baldur's Gate feeling I can certainly contribute. Funny sidenote: So far I feel BG2 spirit in BG3 only when I revive Minotaur and let him throw his 2d12 greatclub. This really reminds me the bug when you were able to steal Ring of Gaxx from Demilich, kill him and loot him for another one.

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