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Originally Posted by millenialboomer


That's not right at all. While I'm sure there are plenty of studios who could handle Baldur's Gate 3, Larian is absolutely one of them. By giving them feedback on how unfun their 5E changes are, we stand to convince them to change them. Advantage is a powerful mechanic in 5E and they surely will see that their house rules are handing it out too easily, among other things.


Won't happen. They are married to their surface combat gimmick combat system, both by the engine they use and the design they prefer and now it is too late to change it as they would need to throw out and reinvest a lot of work.
Same for their story which depends on special snowflake origin characters instead of regular NPCs.

Last edited by Ixal; 30/10/20 04:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by millenialboomer


That's not right at all. While I'm sure there are plenty of studios who could handle Baldur's Gate 3, Larian is absolutely one of them. By giving them feedback on how unfun their 5E changes are, we stand to convince them to change them. Advantage is a powerful mechanic in 5E and they surely will see that their house rules are handing it out too easily, among other things.


Won't happen. They are married to their surface combat gimmick combat system, both by the engine they use and the design they prefer and now it is too late to change it as they would need to throw out and reinvest a lot of work.
Same for their story which depends on special snowflake origin characters instead of regular NPCs.

If modders are already on the job, I'm sure it's possible for Larian itself to fix it to be more like 5E. The only thing they seem absolutely unwilling to add in are planned reactions (which, granted, is a critical part of how 5E works).

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Originally Posted by millenialboomer


That's not right at all. While I'm sure there are plenty of studios who could handle Baldur's Gate 3, Larian is absolutely one of them. By giving them feedback on how unfun their 5E changes are, we stand to convince them to change them. Advantage is a powerful mechanic in 5E and they surely will see that their house rules are handing it out too easily, among other things.

You know, I absolutely DO think that Larian has the skill, creativity, budget and manpower to make a great Badlur's Gate 3. And I used to think people were being absolutely unfair to them when they claimed that as the creators of DOS 2 they weren't suited for the job.
But I'm starting to notice a trend here that has little relation with what they could do and shows something else: they aren't even trying.

There's so much they could easily address to quell all the background noise about this game "being more DOS 3 than BG3", but at this point it's starting to feel like they just don't give a shit and have way too much confidence that "We can put as much DOS as we want here and everyone will love it anyway".
The horrendous control scheme has been my personal crusade for the last month (see signature); the arbitrary limitation of the party size is another thing they borrowed from their own franchise rather than from the originals; the leveled areas and enemies in a system/ruleset that never used to mark its enemies and monsters with explicit levels in other games is another DOS-borrowed feature; there are the barrels light enough to be carried every-fucking-where in the dozens, the surfaces and the dozen of throwables that can create them, the silly, cartoony and whimsical details; about the mountain of small arbitrary tweaking to the rules they made people already wrote hundreds of pages...

I don't even think I need to go on to stress the point: the issue here isn't if they can or not. It's that they just don't want to.

Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 04:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by millenialboomer
That's not right at all. While I'm sure there are plenty of studios who could handle Baldur's Gate 3, Larian is absolutely one of them. By giving them feedback on how unfun their 5E changes are, we stand to convince them to change them. Advantage is a powerful mechanic in 5E and they surely will see that their house rules are handing it out too easily, among other things.

Won't happen. They are married to their surface combat gimmick combat system, both by the engine they use and the design they prefer and now it is too late to change it as they would need to throw out and reinvest a lot of work.
Same for their story which depends on special snowflake origin characters instead of regular NPCs.

It actually wouldn't require that much work to make the surfaces significantly better. Obviously Larian is not going to remove them completely, but they could:
-have cantrips either create a surface (targeting the ground) or deal damage (targeting a character)
-simply increase the weight of barrels/have less of them in the world
-give enemies less access to grenades
-have arrows not create surfaces

If they made all those changes, the effects of surfaces in game would be so much bearable. More interesting even, as you'd get to make tactical decisions on whether to deal fire damage to an enemy or create a fire surface below them.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by millenialboomer


That's not right at all. While I'm sure there are plenty of studios who could handle Baldur's Gate 3, Larian is absolutely one of them. By giving them feedback on how unfun their 5E changes are, we stand to convince them to change them. Advantage is a powerful mechanic in 5E and they surely will see that their house rules are handing it out too easily, among other things.

You know, I absolutely DO think that Larian has the skill, creativity, budget and manpower to make a great Badlur's Gate 3. And I used to think people were being absolutely unfair to them when they claimed that as the creators of DOS 2 they weren't suited for the job.
But I'm starting to notice a trend here that has little relation with what they could do and shows something else: they aren't even trying.

There's so much they could easily address to quell all the background noise about this game "being more DOS 3 than BG3", but at this point it's starting to feel like they just don't give a shit and have way too much confidence that "We can put as much DOS as we want here and everyone will love it anyway".
The control scheme has my personal crusade for the last month; the arbitrary limitation of the party size is another thing they borrowed from their own franchise rather than from the originals; the leveled areas and enemies in a system/ruleset that never used to mark its enemies and monsters with explicit levels in other games is another DOS-borrowed feature; about the mountain of small arbitrary tweaking to the rules they made people already wrote hundreds of pages...

I don't even think I need to go on to stress the point: the issue here isn't if they can or not. It's that they just don't want to.


Well said.
I think people will need to accept that they can enjoy DOS3, or hate BG3.

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Yeah no. They are translating pnp to a 3 d world, you want fully authentic pnp on the compute get tabletop simulator

That's not a particularly solid argument.
Sounds like something silly an average BG3 redditor fanboy would say to defend Larian blindly.

So you think there should be no high ground advantage? dont think a ball of fire hitting someone isnt going to splash embers around...

Everything they've done makes sense in the context of making pnp a real world.

If you want an easy/unrealistic mode, yeah it will probably be a difficulty option. The default game should feel like a real world though.


Hello my good sir. Are you a lawyer in RL? That was the best argument for highground advantage that I’ve heard so far. Seriously. Advantage and a ball of fire? Man, wish I had heard that before. Wouldn’t be here discussing DnD rules.

I’m not even discussing how harmful that advantage system is. Because you know? The game should be made according to the laws of physic IRL. In the next path brace yourselves: “summon familiar” spell will be renamed to “whistle to your dog“ because Larian decided to stay faithful to reality. Oh yeah, of course the only race available will be humans.


Bye

When you transition a flat grid into a 3d world physics is something you need to account for.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Removing logical mechanics means removing complexity are realism dude.


Ok, start listing what "logical mechanics" I did ask to remove and maybe I'll get the impression you aren't just making questionable assumptions.

The highground gives you advantage in a 3d enviornment....

removing that dumbs down the game and lowers realism

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The highground gives you advantage in a 3d enviornment....

removing that dumbs down the game and lowers realism

...Ok?
Now go and find me the post where I asked for its removal.
I'll wait here.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The highground gives you advantage in a 3d enviornment....

removing that dumbs down the game and lowers realism

...Ok?
Now go and find me the post where I asked for its removal.
I'll wait here.


Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Yeah no. They are translating pnp to a 3 d world, you want fully authentic pnp on the computer get tabletop simulator

That's not a particularly solid argument.
Sounds like something silly an average BG3 redditor fanboy would say to defend Larian blindly.

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
.

Do you have some crippling issue with reading comprehension? Because I'm not asking to remove anything there. I just pointed to you that your argument was shallow.

And that's beside the fact that I'm actually neutral on the topic, which means I'm also not sold at all with your claim that it "increases realism".

Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 04:58 PM.

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Be civil guys.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
You know, I absolutely DO think that Larian has the skill, creativity, budget and manpower to make a great Badlur's Gate 3. And I used to think people were being absolutely unfair to them when they claimed that as the creators of DOS 2 they weren't suited for the job.
But I'm starting to notice a trend here that has little relation with what they could do and shows something else: they aren't even trying.

There's so much they could easily address to quell all the background noise about this game "being more DOS 3 than BG3", but at this point it's starting to feel like they just don't give a shit and have way too much confidence that "We can put as much DOS as we want here and everyone will love it anyway".
The horrendous control scheme has been my personal crusade for the last month (see signature); the arbitrary limitation of the party size is another thing they borrowed from their own franchise rather than from the originals; the leveled areas and enemies in a system/ruleset that never used to mark its enemies and monsters with explicit levels in other games is another DOS-borrowed feature; there are the barrels light enough to be carried every-fucking-where in the dozens, the surfaces and the dozen of throwables that can create them, the silly, cartoony and whimsical details; about the mountain of small arbitrary tweaking to the rules they made people already wrote hundreds of pages...

I don't even think I need to go on to stress the point: the issue here isn't if they can or not. It's that they just don't want to.


I will admit I had a somewhat similar history of "people are being unfair" to "now I'm worried". I still think Larian is among the best studios to do this, but they need to step back and see that there's a lot of work to be done if BG3 is to be a proper D&D game AND a proper BG game. And then do this work. My impression is that they can and want to but don't see the traps they fell into. Can't see the forest for all the trees. Well, now they probably do once hundreds of people started pointing things out - but the questions are whether they'll acknowledge the problems and how stubborn they're going to be about certain systems and approaches.

I still have hope, but the next 3 months or so will tell whether it's good for anything. Perhaps I'll eat my words once again.

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It’s incredible to see RL reality mentioned as an argument where you can summon feys from another planes of existence.

Let me summarize:
Let our world be ruled by Newton’s laws.
Let Faerun world to be ruled by WotC laws (DnD5e).

Let me suggest how we should adjust the game to your liking:
Summon familiar = dog whistle
Firebolt = molotov throw
Tashas hideous laughter = standup comedy
(...)
Just breaking the ice


Guys, I do think Larian is able to do the game although I didn’t like the Early Access. They’ve enough gunpowder to make this work.
Rules were made and balanced through years and years of surveys and feedback. They are important because every little thing in Faerun intertwines and overlaps. If you add a +1 to a spell you might snowball through the rest of the game.

There’s no “I want this because I like it”

There’s : this might work because it won’t violate the previous rules

No one is complaining weapon skills. You know why? Because it don’t mess with the game balance. End of story

Bye and wish you all the happiness of the world

If anyone wants reality in a videogame: flight simulator in steam

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ha ha the famous realism argument !

Sometimes it's a valuable argument but most of the time...

Here, for an example, it's a risky one because the advantage giving by the 3D environnements is too much.
And talking about is risky because as it is now it's not realistic. It's too.... exagerated to be realistic.

This is a Larian's idea I would put in the "good idea, bad application" category.
Sure, implement an effect on the attacks if you are higher than your ennemies seems to be cool.
But the way it is, it turned out to be caricatural and unbalanced to a point some (lot of) people are talking about "conquer the hill".

So, rather than defending it in the face of all opposition, let's think together about why it's unbalanced and how make it better.





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So my main issue with the arguments in the OP is that you could take the fact this is a video game completely out of it, and make these arguments against a tabletop D&D campaign, and they would still be considered silly arguments.

The main arguments as I see it are:

1. The stats of monsters in the game don’t match the monster manual.
I don’t think there’s a single experienced DM on the planet that doesn’t alter monster stats to suit their adventure. This is an extremely common thing to do. You don’t want every goblin in your game to feel like a carbon copy of one another.

2. I got a bunch of bad rolls in a row.
Yeah, it happens. Welcome to D&D.

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Ah yes, the famous "because it has fantastic elements nothing needs to make sense, even the completely mundane stuff"

Thats a really silly cop out

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Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
Originally Posted by Vekkares

Finally someone that understands and articulates what im trying to say! Thank you sir, you are the reason I posted. I am not saying lets fire them, im saying they came into this thinking they could make D:OS-The DND skin. I dont want that. My main concerns are a closer to DnD balance. I know the hate for barrellmancy is strong. The higher ground is a dumb mechanic almost everyone hates. I know the ground effects arent liked. Beyond that, small changes could make this more DnD, less OS. My main "ask" is the character import/export so I can play with friends easier. That makes this more of a DnD experience. I hate the idea of being force to play as an NPC, if I dont start a brand new game with a friend. I want an entire party of player characters, not being forced to play as the Origin characters. Again all things that require small changes to what they have already done. Its not horrible, especially in this state, but I would say, if youre inviting people to pay full price for your alpha build to give you feedback, RESPOND to those people. A small customer service team on the forums or a weekly update chat addressing the top items on the forums, which is super easy to do. Something to open discussions with your paying testers.


I think you should shy away from "almost everyone" style arguments. That's probably informed by confirmation bias, and well those of us who likes something usually don't talk about it on the forums.


Personally I find this argument about "this is Divinity Original Sin" is stupid. Firstly, DOS is more than barrels, surfaces and height advantage. DOS has a completely different action economy and ruleset altogether. If I was coming into this game expecting to play DOS then I'd be very disappointed that they "dumbed down" the combat and character creation system. Sure in DOS Barrels and surfaces play a part, and is part of what makes that game cool, but it's not the main point of the game.

Besides surfaces is a part of "the DnD experience", they work somewhat differently than DOS, but they are there. My personal opinion is that Larian should read the Players Handbook again, and implement it as is, then see where their ideas can be added. I think the issue with Height advantage is an issue of balanceing it, not an issue of "it's stupid" the idea is great, and something I know is house ruled at many tables.

As for your "ask": Larian has stated they are planning to add a Mercenary system, and you can recruit "build it yourself" characters from the camp. This would solve your issue, and don't require an import export function.

This is stil a work in progress, don't act as if it's a finished game. This is the Alpha build, treat it as such. Major changes will come, and I'm sure they have heard us loud and clear: "Make it more like Dungeons and Dragons 5e".




The Merc system is a horrible idea. I want to use MY character. If a friend is a little behind of ahead, being able to take them out of my game and into theirs or vice versa. Eff off with any "OP" with levels and gear BS! There are cheat engines, so thats not a qualifier for shooting down the same idea from DA:O and BG1&2. Its not effecting the world im ported into, any different than it did to games 20 years ago. Im simply copying the character I am attached to, to play with friends. The whole point of D&D is to play with your friends and build your character/characters. I have been playing Adventures League for 3 years now and I have about 20 different characters, so tell me, why should this key element not be in the game?

As for alot of the other BS you have said, this game is D:OS3 in its current state. I have yet to sit in a homebrew, module, or book, where every battle is "ok the goblins use acid arrows and the ground is covered in acid, so you will take damage. Oh and the 47 explosive barrels you picked up are enough to kill this dragon." Its stupid. Its lame. No one wants to play with friends to be an NPC, no one wants cantrips were half the damage is related to the ground??? Just keep fanboying, im sure Larian will offer you a job. Cause god forbid people ask for better in a game asking us what we want!

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
It’s incredible to see RL reality mentioned as an argument where you can summon feys from another planes of existence.

Let me summarize:
Let our world be ruled by Newton’s laws.
Let Faerun world to be ruled by WotC laws (DnD5e).

Let me suggest how we should adjust the game to your liking:
Summon familiar = dog whistle
Firebolt = molotov throw
Tashas hideous laughter = standup comedy
(...)
Just breaking the ice


Jokes aside it would rather be like firebolt -> you can throw it but you have a dark past where you had to swallow a Molotov to learn the skill.
BG had this way of writing quests and characters where the fantastic aspect was constantly confronted to reality of simple human beings. In BG3 by Larian (for now) it wasn't brought to players attention. Everyone is special. I think that's why this argument pops off ^^

But obviously it doesn't apply to mechanics. It's more about storytelling( Anomen side quest with his family problems was a perfect example of that, the bhaal spawn wanting a normal life vs the fact he...wasn't normal, Aerie ending up in circus). 20 years later I can tell you one thing.

Every single story told in BG was straightforward and silly. " This guy is bad, this guy is sad". "Oh you're the bhaalspawn? Aaaaahhh...-> Proceeds to murder you ".And yet even now I thing BG storytelling stays at quite a high level. Precisely because of this contrast described above ^^

Anyways. Out of scope of thread. Larian can do it.

One thing that feel important for me is the fact DOS:2 general discussion forum had 150 pages up to today.
BG:3 had 150 pages in the first month. Like I think they GOT THE MESSAGE.
More precisely.
THE SEVERAL THOUSAND A4 PAGES OF MESSAGES. xD


Last edited by virion; 30/10/20 06:25 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
It’s incredible to see RL reality mentioned as an argument where you can summon feys from another planes of existence.

It's called suspension of disbelief. Players want illusionary realism so they can imagine that these characters and this world are real. Most audience members want the same thing in a movie, even if the mechanics of the movie would break down under real scrutiny. Players don't want the game to jump the shark.

Suspension of Disbelief is a big deal, and it's one of the cornerstones of 5e and roleplaying.

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Originally Posted by Tuco

I don't even think I need to go on to stress the point: the issue here isn't if they can or not. It's that they just don't want to.


That would be my biggest fear too.

I can see how the immense commercial success of DOS2, and now BG3 EA potentially leading a developer towards that kind of thinking. It doesn't help that they haven't communicated much officially in regards to the mechanics.

It has only been a month, so I am willing to wait and see. Larian seems to be avoiding commitments (hence probably why they had Kevin, the writer, pull down his stream where he "confirmed" many details). I don't love it as an EA player, but I can respect that as a viable approach from the development side.

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