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Long story short, I have played ToEE, IWD 1/2, NWN1/2, BG1/2(classic and EE), Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, Dark Sun : Shattered Sands/Wake of the ravager, and tons of other games. By far, BG3 is the game where you fell more useless and your spells fells weaker. "but nwn2", not even nwn2 who destroyed most iconic spells, like animate dead, cloudkill, black tentacles, etc; reached the level of BG3. Why?


  • Low level dungeons & kobolds "epic" campaign
  • Ludicrous MMO like HP bloat without bloating spells
  • Artificial gear dependency.
  • Magical items are extremely mundane while powerful spells aren't
  • DOS style gimmicky everywhere
  • WORST ui to cast spells.


Now point for point

1 - Ridiculous low(4 EA/10 final) lv cap. That lv cap is so low and in a interview, they mentioned that the higher tier spells can't work in video games. Did anyone on that interview even played BG2:SoA and ToB???? This game implemented a lot of high level magic and even epic level magic on HLA. Wish is with very limitations on BG2. Same for stop time. In fact, you can fight enemies that cast stop time on the, before even reaching underdark.

And talking about underdark, an campaign which starts with a mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army and has you on underdark at chapter 1 should't be a low level campaign. You reach the underdark of the nwn1 : hotu on chapter 1 too however, hordes of the underdark expansion starts at lv 15. And the game gives a lot of XP to bumb you to epic level before chapter 2 where you fight dracoliches and mindflayer colonies.

Or you have a low level campaign or you have a epic campaign, you can't have both. Low level campaigns should start in a place like Candlekeep.

2 - HP BLOAT

Here is you """epic""" warlock who explored the underdark, escaped an mindflayer spelljammer ship, is at the same level of an adult red dragon(4 ironically) and .... He can't OHK and goblin child with Eldritch Blast buffed by agonizing blast.

Not even NWN2 which removed most powerful WLK invocations like Eldritch Glaive, nerfed most iconic invocations and destroyed the class makes you fell so worthless as a warlock. And BTW, you can mod and fix the invocations with warlock reworked. BG3 will probably require heavily modding to be more P&P like too.

That HP bloat kills most iconic low level spells like sleep. Not only destroys damage spells

3 - Artificial gear dependency.

Magic Missile can miss, so is worthless, however, there are an item which doubles this spell damage making it useful. Why not just make it like on P&P??? Magic missile is a spell made to be reliable but low damage output.

4 - Magical items are extremely mundane while powerful spells aren't

You find so many mundane magical items, but magical spells, not only are inaccessible to the party but also to NPC's.


5 - DOS style gimmicky everywhere

The game is more about environmental puzzles than anything else.

6 - WORST ui to cast spells.

Why copy the DOS2 UI?

DOS2 magic system and the vancian magical system used on BG3 are completely different. If you try to "mod" the DOS2 ui to have vancian magical system, you end up with a pouted UI that just doesn't work.

Look to NWN1/2 UI and quick cast menu. Those UI was made with vancian magic system in mind. And can be used to WLK which uses SLA abilities.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Or to Dark Sun : Wake of the Ravager

[Linked Image]


Lastly, an nitpick. Make Eldritch Blast PURPLE. Like how appeared on complete arcane(3.5e) and is known on most 5e artworks

[Linked Image]

NWN2 casting

[Linked Image]


The wiki description

"When a warlock cast eldritch blast he created and fired from his hands or implement a purple bolt[1] or beam[3][4] of crackling destructive energy. Like similarly simple spells, eldritch blast could be cast as many times as its caster desired.[3][1][4]"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eldritch_blast

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 31/10/20 12:20 AM.
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I always love your posts, Viktor! It'd be great if Larian took your comments to heart.

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Of all the things that will/could/might change, HP bloat won't be one of them.

Why? Because the game would be too easy without it. To fix it being too easy, they would have to change more than they would be willing to change. And frankly, I'm glad they won't. I've played all those games that you mentioned at the beginning, and BG 3 has better combat than all of them. We'll see where this game stacks up with the full release, but of combat I have no doubts.

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Combat is harder when you go through an area with traps and environmental challenges where the floor crumbles and you need to cast featherfall, make dex checks, pop some potions, etc...they have what every DM dreams of - being able to build a dungeon that isn't a room with a puzzle, 4 orcs, a pressure plate the closes the walls. In D&D you just cant let a fully rested party be the state they are in for encounters. At some point they need to be drained. Sure, first fight is easy - if you blow your stuff. The fact you know you got 5 more of those fights until you can rest...now its a bit harder.

Think about initiative on this. Its a complex trap from unearthed arcana. I ran it once, it was amazing. The Path of Blades, pg 7-8

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/0227_UATraps.pdf

You have to change the nature of the party, their fundamental state, as you head into fights because there is so.much.more. to D&D than fighting.

Out of all of this there was only 3 fights. The revenant when you got sucked into a painting, 2 flying swords guarding a treasure, 2 golems that you could deactivate if you figured it out, and the boss. The rest is cursed items, traps, treasure. My players said it was one of the funnest dungeons they've done. They had to *think*. They also had to make con saves when they took a rest because they place was necrotically cold and half the party got exhaustion from their sleep and then had to go through a hall of traps to get to the boss. Yes the name is a joke, and I know it looks crappy it was my DM notes and wasn't made for official presentation. The argument might be made that you CANT do that in games, but you go into initiative on these things and perception checks and investigation checks unlock things like "there are blades" that allow you to misty step past them and try to pull the lever that deactivates them or dispel magic on a magic rune controlling it. I'd wager that not a lot of thought would be needed to implement SOMETHING. Now, after that, pretty beat up. A Monster Manual encounter is now not so easy. Spell slots are blown, HP is down or your potions are and you have a belly ache from eating too many onions.

The issue is the fundamental way the rest system is made couple with this just being fight after fight after fight with very little being creative other than trying to royally cheese the situation after 10 attempts. Its got to be a little more cerebral and diverse.

My 2c laugh


[Linked Image]


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Dulany67
Why? Because the game would be too easy without it.


Completely wrong. Try to play dark sun : wake of the ravager. The game is not easy and the enemies has the same HP of the PHB for 2e. You can just put more monsters, higher CR monsters, give better equipment and spells to monsters and so on.

High lethality is part of D&D(not so much on 5e) but still, is one of the things that I like. an single critical can "flip the board".

ToEE is extremely harder than BG3 and also doesn't have hp bloat. In fact, putting a freaking Balor against a lv 10 party is not what I consider fair challenge but still a great game.

Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
I always love your posts, Viktor! It'd be great if Larian took your comments to heart.


Thanks

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 31/10/20 01:08 AM.
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Wait, Magic Missile can miss xD?
I don't think I've ever seen it miss.


I agree about making Eldritch Blast purple tho, I still like how it looks right now but I think that giving it color either red or purple would look better.

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Originally Posted by Svalr
Wait, Magic Missile can miss xD?
I don't think I've ever seen it miss.


I agree about making Eldritch Blast purple tho, I still like how it looks right now but I think that giving it color either red or purple would look better.


It looks cool right now but the rainbow effects make it look more like a Divine spell. Would be good if they could put some standards in place (eg. divine radiant spells have the white hot rainbow effect like EB currently has, force spells could be purple – including Bigby’s Hand).

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i think w should be able to customize the color of Eldritch Blast; I always described mine as Green in games I've played.

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Originally Posted by Svalr
Wait, Magic Missile can miss xD?
I don't think I've ever seen it miss.


I agree about making Eldritch Blast purple tho, I still like how it looks right now but I think that giving it color either red or purple would look better.


in some occasion the environment can stop the missile, that's totally in contradiction with what the spell should do.

you can see your target ? hit at 100%

and I don't get it why the enemy is not using the spell Shield all the time. I guess its because .. its not even in the game :P

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 31/10/20 02:54 AM.

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Originally Posted by Popsculpture
i think w should be able to customize the color of Eldritch Blast; I always described mine as Green in games I've played.


Yeah that would be cool too.
I am just happy to have a good damaging cantrip xD.
In Pathfinder Kingmaker playing a spellcaster always felt gimped outside of the big spells, I get that CC is pretty awesome but man cantrips barely tickle even as an Arcane Trickster they kinda suck.
So I don't have too many complaints about magic right now in Baldur's Gate 3.
Main complaint maybe is that the headband that gives 18 in int just incentivizes you to build a low int gimped build early game and rush to the headband, it feels like a kinda gimmicky item that just heavily incentivizes you to play a very specific weird way in EA.
And also Burning Hands looks more like some kind of an orange blast than actually shooting fire.
Compare it with Burning Hands in Pathfinder Kingmaker for example, in Pathfinder it looks like how I imagine Burning Hands to look like.
Same with Magic Missile, it looks more '' Arcaney to me in Pathfinder than in Baldur's Gate 3 where it's just like these red orbs.

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Originally Posted by Svalr
[quote=Popsculpture]
In Pathfinder Kingmaker playing a spellcaster always felt gimped outside of the big spells, I get that CC is pretty awesome but man cantrips barely tickle even as an Arcane Trickster they kinda suck.



At least on PFKM you HAVE BIG spells. And cantrips being extremely weak is the point of older editions of D&D and pathfinder. BG3 in other hands, i fell extremely useless as a warlock. But spells scale with you. Magic missile can produce 5 missiles on PFKM and on BG3, only one.

PFKM screenshot
[Linked Image]

Note that other thing that I don't understand is why so many people believes that WLK draw their power from their patron, when the patron is like a master who teaches the warlock. Is that way since 2e... Warlocks on 3.5e was vastly different, with invocations as spell like abilities, but still no "cleric" vibe. 5e combines spell slots from 2e with invocations/SLA from 3.5e.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 31/10/20 03:20 AM.
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Pathfinder Kingmaker is also a finished game tho, we don't even really have the finished Act 1 yet in Baldur's Gate 3.
You don't get powerful spells in Pathfinder Kingmaker until later acts.
You won't really get Fireball for example until Chapter 2.

I know that cantrips are sorta meant to be weak, but it's one thing how it plays in PnP and another thing entirely how things play out in a video game where you fight hordes of enemies in a short period of time.
In PnP it takes A LOT longer to use up all your spells while in a video game a single fight is over so quickly and you go through so many of them.

Last edited by Svalr; 31/10/20 03:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by Svalr
You won't really get Fireball for example until Chapter 2.

I know that cantrips are sorta meant to be weak, but it's one thing how it plays in PnP and another thing entirely how things play out in a video game where you fight hordes of enemies in a short period of time.


Actually, if you do all side quests, doesn't skip the random encounters, etc; you can reach lv 6 on the first chapter, an wizard can cast a fireball on lv 5 and playing solo with XP share disabled and being completitionist allow you to reach lv 10 on the first chapter. You can also cast fireball on the first chapter of NWN1, NWN2, BG2(start with tier 4 spells like stoneskin which are extremely more powerful on 2e). Hell, most games that i've played has you at lv 3 after the tutorial/prologue.

The idea of a campaign where you start by escaping an mindflayer spelljammer ship and can enter on the underdark at chapter 1 restricting you to lv 4 is so much BS... And I thinking that putting an balor to fight a lv 10 party on ToEE was BS enough.

As for cantrips, cantrips are weak on every game that i've played. Except 5e based games which tried to make cantrips more powerful. You have kineticist which has unlimited SLA "infusions" and martial classes to take hordes of weaklings.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 31/10/20 03:43 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Svalr
You won't really get Fireball for example until Chapter 2.

I know that cantrips are sorta meant to be weak, but it's one thing how it plays in PnP and another thing entirely how things play out in a video game where you fight hordes of enemies in a short period of time.


Actually, if you do all side quests, doesn't skip the random encounters, etc; you can reach lv 6 on the first chapter, an wizard can cast a fireball on lv 5 and playing solo with XP share disabled and being completitionist allow you to reach lv 10 on the first chapter. You can also cast fireball on the first chapter of NWN1, NWN2, BG2(start with tier 4 spells like stoneskin which are extremely more powerful on 2e). Hell, most games that i've played has you at lv 3 after the tutorial/prologue.

The idea of a campaign where you start by escaping an mindflayer spelljammer ship and can enter on the underdark at chapter 1 restricting you to lv 4 is so much BS... And I thinking that putting an balor to fight a lv 10 party on ToEE was BS enough.

As for cantrips, cantrips are weak on every game that i've played. Except 5e based games which tried to make cantrips more powerful. You have kineticist which has unlimited SLA "infusions" and martial classes to take hordes of weaklings.




Regardless my point still stands, it's EA and more powerful spells are a thing in Baldur's Gate 3 and will be there when the exp is unlocked.
Yes, cantrips have been weak in every game I've played too and I think it has more to do with trying to stay true to the DnD PnP formula.
What I am saying is just that it doesn't translate well into a video game, especially not Pathfinder where you fight hordes and hordes of enemies.
In PnP a single fight can take quite a while, but in a video game you can go through a lot of fights pretty quickly.
So I think that cantrips should be adapted to that.

I played a Kineticist in my previous Pathfinder Kingmaker playthrough so I am aware, all I am saying is that Wizards and Sorcerers for example feel very gimped like 90% of the time.
They do shine very brightly in the 10% of the time, but I think that the 90% of the time where they're not using their big spells and rely on cantrips could be made slightly better.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Dulany67
Why? Because the game would be too easy without it.


Completely wrong. Try to play dark sun : wake of the ravager. The game is not easy and the enemies has the same HP of the PHB for 2e. You can just put more monsters, higher CR monsters, give better equipment and spells to monsters and so on.

High lethality is part of D&D(not so much on 5e) but still, is one of the things that I like. an single critical can "flip the board".

ToEE is extremely harder than BG3 and also doesn't have hp bloat. In fact, putting a freaking Balor against a lv 10 party is not what I consider fair challenge but still a great game.



You should have quoted the next sentence also.

Originally Posted by Dulany67


Why? Because the game would be too easy without it. To fix it being too easy, they would have to change more than they would be willing to change.

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Oh hey Victor is complaining about spells again. Will wonders never cease.

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Originally Posted by Dulany67


Why? Because the game would be too easy without it. To fix it being too easy, they would have to change more than they would be willing to change.


The things they'd have to change are mostly things that should be changed anyway. If things like disengage and hide were actions for most classes (exceptions being rogue and monk) and height advantage couldn't be so easily abused, combat wouldn't be as easy as you seem to think. Especially not if creature AC was made compliant with the MM.

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Originally Posted by Dulany67
Of all the things that will/could/might change, HP bloat won't be one of them.

Why? Because the game would be too easy without it. To fix it being too easy, they would have to change more than they would be willing to change. And frankly, I'm glad they won't. I've played all those games that you mentioned at the beginning, and BG 3 has better combat than all of them. We'll see where this game stacks up with the full release, but of combat I have no doubts.


They should just add "+25% damage to ennemies" instead of giving us a totally strange and custom experience if they want to increase difficulty.
Easier fix than having to balance every spells and skills.

Vic is right, spells sucks too much and combats are really slow because nothing is really efficient. Killing only 1 ennemy/turn/4 character (sometimes two, if luck is with you) is really boring, especially when we're talking about weak ennemies.

Combats would probably be faster with the rules because your damages are more significant on ennemies HP (and OS is a real possibility).

Larian's HP bloat/AC reduction has no significant impact on the flow of combats as proven by some players (see reddit).
If the problem with the original rules is that player see "50% hit chance" too often, just add consistent mecanics instead of changing everything, leading to the huge and bad consequences we all know.

Bonus on attack roll, slight decrease to AC, consistent advantages, use surfaces to create moderate ennemies debuff,... There are many ways and possibilities for combats to be more fluent... But their HP/AC bloat is definitely not one and it has many consequences...

One is that the game is way less tactical because everything rely on (way too) OP mechanics instead of D&D's rules and balance.

We actually don't really have to think in combats because the game is way too "automatic" and our efficiency only depend on Larian's custom rules. Their rules should be tactical possibilities, not THE way to deal with combats.


Last edited by Maximuuus; 31/10/20 09:04 AM.
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Level cap has already been addressed.
Yes it’s 4 for EA, so what... but the end level is going to be higher than level 10. Besides BG1 only went up to around lvl 10, didn’t hurt that game.

Magic Missile missing? Not seen that happen, must need to play more and try, not saying you’re wrong just haven’t seen it myself.

Not being able to one shot creatures with spells? Shadowheart has a couple that murder goblins or similar easily enough (Necrotic for example) , I just usually don’t waste them on the goblins, though it might make the fights quicker given how easy it is to rest currently.

The UI needs work, plus there’s the annoying (presumably bug) that deselected spells from your quickbar when you click on them sometimes.

So yeah there’s work to be done for sure, think it’s a little early to say it’s the worst though.

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Originally Posted by Svalr

In PnP a single fight can take quite a while, but in a video game you can go through a lot of fights pretty quickly.
So I think that cantrips should be adapted to that.

I played a Kineticist in my previous Pathfinder Kingmaker playthrough so I am aware, all I am saying is that Wizards and Sorcerers for example feel very gimped like 90% of the time.


This is completely wrong. There are countless of solo sorc runs on youtube where the player doesn't need to rest scum. And the point of this casters is to cast limited but powerful spells. You can dislike it, but is how they are.



Originally Posted by Zer0
Oh hey Victor is complaining about spells again. Will wonders never cease.



Yep. How dare Victor commiting the ultimate heresy of saying why BG3 has the worst spellcasting ever in a forum which Larian created to collect feedback. Everyone should only praise Larian here. There is nothing wrong with warlocks at lv cap, after exploring underdark and escaping arvenus becoming unable to hit an goblin child at 20m and even if they hit, his eldritch blast is unable to OHK the goblin child. That is so fun and engaging to waste all powerful spells in every encounter and resting after each goblin battle /sarcasm

Originally Posted by Riandor
Not being able to one shot creatures with spells? Shadowheart has a couple that murder goblins or similar easily enough (Necrotic for example) , I just usually don’t waste them on the goblins, though it might make the fights quicker given how easy it is to rest currently.

The UI needs work, plus there’s the annoying (presumably bug) that deselected spells from your quickbar when you click on them sometimes.

So yeah there’s work to be done for sure, think it’s a little early to say it’s the worst though.


My problem is not the lv cap. Is the low lv cap in a "epic" campaign. You don't fight dragons nor enter on the underdark and do epic things on BG1. It is restricted to BG2.

Or you have a Dungeons & Kobolds game
Or you have a game where the PC's enter the underdark and escape a mindflayer ship.

You can't have both.

And I was talking about Eldritch Blast and adult goblins on P&P has 6 hp. On game, goblin children has 15 hp. 5e is already the slowest edition, not counting 4e which isn't D&D. Why make things even more bloated?

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