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Nyanko Offline OP
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If verticality is a great idea on paper, in reality the AI cannot deal with it properly.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, as a solo wizard level 3, I decided to kill every single creatures in the blighted village.

1. At the gate
So I let the goblin do his speech and then when the combat starts, I teleport at his back with misty step and shove him out of the roof. The other goblins are too far away so what do they do? They move down to get to my position, becoming easy targets for my magic missiles and cantrips. They have disadvantage to shoot me. Fight done.

2. The barn
I move to the roof and get to the opening so they see I'm there and after the dialogue, I piss them off even more and they decide to fight. But as I am on the roof, what do they do? Nothing. They stand there and I kill them with my spells. Easy cake.

3. The mill
I use stealth to go at the top of the mill and then start the fight by shooting one of the archers with my magic missiles. Combat starts. The spell caster, I get rid of her in the second round. The wargs cannot go up so they just stand there doing nothing. The archers have a disadvantage so they miss most of the time. The warriors, they move to my position one by one and I shove them off. Fight over.

4. The goblins in the west
I move to the roof above them and I kill them without a sweat using cantrips while picking my nails.

5. The 3 ogres
I start the fight by shooting one of the ogres with magic missiles. Once the fight starts, I move to the roof of the opposite house with misty step. The mage comes out alone while the two other ogres stay where they are shouting. I get rid of the mage with all my most powerful spells then I move down cautiously using stealth to kite the two others one by one. Fight over.

Don't you see there is a problem here? You gave us tools so powerful, like the combination of heights and stealth, that the AI doesn't know how to deal with us at all. And we can wipe them out with a solo character like it's nobody's business.

My suggestions:

1. Create a reinforcement mechanic for areas (goblin camp, swamp, blighted village, etc...)

This reinforcement mechanic shouldn't be triggered by the AI itself (example: the goblin drums, too easily put out) but by the number of rounds a combat is going on. The more rounds it goes, the more enemies appear. It would stop the kiting and would make combat much more tactical.

2. Give the AI the ability to use the verticality better

There should be some mobs specialized in jumping up and down very easily to create a sense of emergency. At the moment, you can camp on your roof and you are ok.

3. Make stealth far less efficient than it is now

Going back to stealth during the fight shouldn't have as consequence the enemy stops their actions and stays there doing nothing yelling at you. If they have spotted you once, they should move in your direction to look for you. As well, some enemies, like wargs or harpies, should not have a cone of vision but a full circle of detection around them using other senses like sound or smell to find you.

Last edited by Nyanko; 31/10/20 09:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Nyanko

Going back to stealth during the fight shouldn't have as consequence the enemy stops their actions and stays there doing nothing yelling at you. If they have spotted you once, they should move in your direction to look for you. As well, some enemies, like wargs or harpies, should not have a cone of vision but a full circle of detection around them using other senses like sound or smell to find you.


They do sometimes come to look for you. I've seen it happen. But it should happen more I think.

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I hope going stealth on high ground will be less powerful as the AI gets tweaked. There are visual effects for places your character hid, so hopefully they will figure out how to get the AI to investigate those properly.

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Moving away from line of sight (I don't think stealth is even required), easily done using verticality, tend to break the AI and cause easily exploitable immersion breaking scenarios. Obviously this can't be allowed to stand and will be improved down the line.

That said, I hope for *MORE* legitimate tools to "break the AI", like allowing the "Minor Illusion" cantrip be used to hide/conceal players. In your scenario where the guard spotted you, he/she should either; a) call for reinforcements, and/or b) inspect personally, but still be possibly fooled by you casting "Minor Illusion" to appear hidden by a bush, barrel or even wall (tabletop version allows for this versatility).

I like the reinforcement suggestion, but something like that would likely require an overhaul of the xp system to avoid "milking xp" on purpose. Somewhat reduced xp for killing enemies and compensate by introducing a xp bonus for clearing/solving areas for instance (this would incentivize more stealthy/diplomatic playstyles as an added benefit).

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Moving away from line of sight (I don't think stealth is even required), easily done using verticality, tend to break the AI and cause easily exploitable immersion breaking scenarios. Obviously this can't be allowed to stand and will be improved down the line.

That said, I hope for *MORE* legitimate tools to "break the AI", like allowing the "Minor Illusion" cantrip be used to hide/conceal players. In your scenario where the guard spotted you, he/she should either; a) call for reinforcements, and/or b) inspect personally, but still be possibly fooled by you casting "Minor Illusion" to appear hidden by a bush, barrel or even wall (tabletop version allows for this versatility).

I like the reinforcement suggestion, but something like that would likely require an overhaul of the xp system to avoid "milking xp" on purpose. Somewhat reduced xp for killing enemies and compensate by introducing a xp bonus for clearing/solving areas for instance (this would incentivize more stealthy/diplomatic playstyles as an added benefit).


The reinforcement is essentially what we have in XCOM. And I think they could do it in some areas like the goblin camp, the blighted village and the swamp.

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I just think they need to reconsider Hide as bonus action for all, aside from making AI more aggressive with searches.

Other than that - I think all the creatures that can't range attack, should be able to at least throw rocks or have alternative weak ranged attack if they have no path to you, as long as it makes sense - totally not expecting worg to throw a rock at you, but goblins - for sure.

They even probably should allow them to do this as they close in, within reason.

---

And hey, reinforcements could be an interesting idea to explore there too. Overall, I think stealth should definitely be a way there, but it's a bit way too bulletproof as it is now.

Last edited by Gaidax; 31/10/20 11:22 AM.
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Aside for the fact that YES, the AI needs to be a bit more proactive in hunting down stealth characters and it probably shouldn't be a bonus action for everyone, I can't really say I'm particularly concerned about any of the scenarios you depicted.

Last edited by Tuco; 31/10/20 11:25 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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I think in many cases the goblins should just run back to where other goblins are instead of standing around -- i.e. the goblin camp gates, etc. It's the most realistic option.

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For me, combat as it stands is too cheesable, much more than DOS 2 even. And I hope an ironman tactical mode will be addressing these issues. If not, I guess I will just play the story mode when it comes out and leave it be. I am a turn based tactical game nerd and BG3 doesn't offer a challenge at all.

So I am doing this solo wizard playthrough and give some suggestions for a mode in which players who like a challenge like me are pushed to their limits if they go solo or with naked characters.

Last edited by Nyanko; 31/10/20 11:40 AM.
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Please no reinforcements besides scripted events. The commando thieves in Dragon Age 2 were beyond silly.

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Originally Posted by dza101
I think in many cases the goblins should just run back to where other goblins are instead of standing around -- i.e. the goblin camp gates, etc. It's the most realistic option.


One of the issues with reinforcements is that they then become farmable. dza101 has the right idea, have them fall back to a defensible position or ambush spot when the player comes looking for them.

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I think that the bonuses of higher ground should be decreased instead of changing lots of things like you suggested.

Just give us a +3 bonus to attack rolls instead of an advantage when we're higher. No malus if we're under the target.
That way your hitting chances when you're higher are a little bit increased and that's it.

Eventually add a bonus to DD or a malus to saving throws. Not sure it's necessary.

High ground is actually a big part of what combats are and it shouldn't. It should only be a reasonable bonus and a tactical option... Not a systematic/cheesy mechanic.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 31/10/20 02:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

High ground is actually a big part of what combats are and it shouldn't. It should only be a reasonable bonus and a tactical option... Not a systematic/cheesy mechanic.


I don't agree with this - personally think high ground should be a big part in the game. Shooting upwards should be more difficult and vice-versa, because that is how actual combat would work.

High ground is not really a feature in 5e because most combat encounters take place on a 2d map. That is what a DM can be expected to prep for a session. Whereas BG3 has a 3d map, why not take advantage of it?

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Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

High ground is actually a big part of what combats are and it shouldn't. It should only be a reasonable bonus and a tactical option... Not a systematic/cheesy mechanic.


I don't agree with this - personally think high ground should be a big part in the game. Shooting upwards should be more difficult and vice-versa, because that is how actual combat would work.

High ground is not really a feature in 5e because most combat encounters take place on a 2d map. That is what a DM can be expected to prep for a session. Whereas BG3 has a 3d map, why not take advantage of it?


Except every time when fighting something flying.
Have fun fighting the dragon while getting disadvantage all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

High ground is actually a big part of what combats are and it shouldn't. It should only be a reasonable bonus and a tactical option... Not a systematic/cheesy mechanic.


I don't agree with this - personally think high ground should be a big part in the game. Shooting upwards should be more difficult and vice-versa, because that is how actual combat would work.

High ground is not really a feature in 5e because most combat encounters take place on a 2d map. That is what a DM can be expected to prep for a session. Whereas BG3 has a 3d map, why not take advantage of it?


Except every time when fighting something flying.
Have fun fighting the dragon while getting disadvantage all the time.


True, but then again most dragon fights I had don't involve a dragon flying all the time. Granted, I mostly ran for/played in parties with 1/2 melee oriented PC's.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko

1. Create a reinforcement mechanic for areas (goblin camp, swamp, blighted village, etc...)

This reinforcement mechanic shouldn't be triggered by the AI itself (example: the goblin drums, too easily put out) but by the number of rounds a combat is going on. The more rounds it goes, the more enemies appear. It would stop the kiting and would make combat much more tactical.


The game is probably already maxed out for the number of enemies it can show and move around, due to both scenery/camera design and AI limitations. To show more enemies than we see now, the combat arenas would need to be larger, and fights would be longer due to AI processing delays on enemy turns.

I suppose the game could draw in more waves of enemies after X number are killed, but people are already complaining about how long some of the larger fights take.

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2. Give the AI the ability to use the verticality better

There should be some mobs specialized in jumping up and down very easily to create a sense of emergency. At the moment, you can camp on your roof and you are ok.


I agree with this. Anything the player can do, enemies should be able to do as well. If you can climb on a roof using just manual methods (i.e. not teleporting), then enemy melee fighters should be able to follow you up there. This may be a work in progress with path finding. And maybe the number of inaccessible places you can reach by teleporting with Misty Step should be reduced.

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Maybe it was easy for you OP, but in reality most players can't abuse the mechanics as well as you do and solo everything. In fact it is the exact opposite, for most players it's super easy to get their entire party wiped. Please consider that next time you suggest something ridiculous like potentially endless reinforcements mechanic. If anything that would encourage abusing stealth even more to avoid combat altogether.

Last edited by eLeF; 31/10/20 05:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Nyanko
2. Give the AI the ability to use the verticality better

There should be some mobs specialized in jumping up and down very easily to create a sense of emergency. At the moment, you can camp on your roof and you are ok.
I agree with this. Anything the player can do, enemies should be able to do as well. If you can climb on a roof using just manual methods (i.e. not teleporting), then enemy melee fighters should be able to follow you up there. This may be a work in progress with path finding. And maybe the number of inaccessible places you can reach by teleporting with Misty Step should be reduced.

+1. The basic jump ability shouldn't let you reach places that enemies can't reach.

Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Ixal
Except every time when fighting something flying.
Have fun fighting the dragon while getting disadvantage all the time.
True, but then again most dragon fights I had don't involve a dragon flying all the time. Granted, I mostly ran for/played in parties with 1/2 melee oriented PC's.

Once a dragon uses its breath weapon, it's basically useless in the air. I mean, I suppose the DM could have the dragon hover 5 ft above the PCs, use its melee attacks, then fly back up out of their reach..but that would be real frustrating as a player. Although probably the smartest option for the dragon

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Or, simply learn AI to run out of reach, when oponent have all advantages. :-/

Or, simply make most of high grounds destroyable ... man how i was surprised, when they blown up that gate at goblin camp. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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This is on the megathread about the height and backstab advantages. It makes all encounters trivial because it reduces all classes to the same "get high and shoot down" mechanic. This one mechanic basically undermines the entire 5e ruleset by giving class specific "advantages" to all classes with none of the drawback at lv 1. What is the point of making an assassin when every class can get a backstab advantage or a ranged ranger when "high up" means big damage and hit chance for everyone?

Simple solution is to remove the height advantages which shouldn't be there anyway and give NPC's better AI so they move out of range or out of sight.

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