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Peranor Offline OP
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Even if i'm undetected and make a successful roll for pickpocket the NPC somehow still knows I stole from them a few seconds later. Is it supposed to work like that or am I missing something?
I've noticed you can cheese it by promptly fast travel away after a successful pickpocket and just wait them out. But that doesnt feel right either.

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What I do is move the group close to a merchant, then separate my MC (a Rogue/Thief) from the group and have him go into hiding for the pickpocket action. Steal the gold which is easy, not the gear. As soon as I see the success roll, I close that window and immediately start sneaking away from the merchant and the rest of the group.

There is a delay before the merchant realizes he's been pickpocketed. By the time that triggers, my thief is far enough away that the merchant only starts a dialog with my other party members, standing there looking innocent. That's always resolved with a persuasion check, my actual thief character is never involved because he's too far away.

Fast travel can cheese it, but this always works and feels more realistic. It's basically the same mechanism as in Larian's previous DOS2 game, although that had a one-time pickpocket restriction per merchant. and per party member. They should bring that back.

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yeah it is kind of annoying that they ALWAYS realize. Though I Was not surprised Abdirak caught me picking his "pockets".

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Fast travel can cheese it, but this always works and feels more realistic. It's basically the same mechanism as in Larian's previous DOS2 game, although that had a one-time pickpocket restriction per merchant. and per party member. They should bring that back.

That would be just a band-aid solution to a mechanism which is more an exploit than a feature in Larian games. I feel Larian should do more to balance pickpocketing becoming the easiest way to get rich/powerful fast. Once you understand how the system works, you are pretty much guaranteed success. Besides, success is just a single save scum away.

I'm hoping for more roleplaying moral dilemmas where you can obtain ill-gotten goods, rather than a simple gameplay mechanic. I'm hoping for a hidden reputation system a bit like in the original games. If things start being stolen/disappearing when the party arrives in an area - all of them will be under suspicion even if there is no direct proof. Social skill checks should be made more difficult. Stolen items, depending on rarity, should always have a chance to be recognized when equipped on a companion. I want the possibility a friggin' Flaming Fist squad spawning yelling "I AM THE LAW!" as it proceeds to arrest or attack you or a "crime hunter" squad who investigate larger thefts and where possibly innocents are falsely accused/arrested. Anything but a quick and easy way to be more rich and more powerful as Larian usually opts for.

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I don't know, since I've never actually been pickpocketed, but I'm thinking that, if I reach for my wallet, and it's not there, I'm going to notice.

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Fast travel can cheese it, but this always works and feels more realistic. It's basically the same mechanism as in Larian's previous DOS2 game, although that had a one-time pickpocket restriction per merchant. and per party member. They should bring that back.

That would be just a band-aid solution to a mechanism which is more an exploit than a feature in Larian games. I feel Larian should do more to balance pickpocketing becoming the easiest way to get rich/powerful fast. Once you understand how the system works, you are pretty much guaranteed success. Besides, success is just a single save scum away.

I'm hoping for more roleplaying moral dilemmas where you can obtain ill-gotten goods, rather than a simple gameplay mechanic. I'm hoping for a hidden reputation system a bit like in the original games. If things start being stolen/disappearing when the party arrives in an area - all of them will be under suspicion even if there is no direct proof. Social skill checks should be made more difficult. Stolen items, depending on rarity, should always have a chance to be recognized when equipped on a companion. I want the possibility a friggin' Flaming Fist squad spawning yelling "I AM THE LAW!" as it proceeds to arrest or attack you or a "crime hunter" squad who investigate larger thefts and where possibly innocents are falsely accused/arrested. Anything but a quick and easy way to be more rich and more powerful as Larian usually opts for.

So what in any of this prevents "save scumming"? Assuming you're not caught, how does that Flaming Fist squad know it's you? My GF at the time and I did a murderhobo run of BG. We killed everyone and everything we saw. At the end of that playthrough, we had to abandon it, because there were squads of Flaming Fist everywhere, and even rest ambushes were Flaming Fist. We were completely unable to progress the game. It was fun, in a way, but we didn't get very far before we had to quit, because after a while, it became unfun. The system you're laying out here is no less "exploitive" than what's in game right now, with people automatically assuming it's the PC's group that's responsible. At least in the current system, there's still a chance that you can be caught, either by a failing roll, or some random passerby taking you out of stealth. That's worlds better than being locked out of content because NPCs won't interact with you because of your reputation. I mean, even in BG, I always wondered how, with no witnesses, the Flaming Fist always knew it was us, and where we were...

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Originally Posted by robertthebard

So what in any of this prevents "save scumming"? Assuming you're not caught, how does that Flaming Fist squad know it's you? My GF at the time and I did a murderhobo run of BG. We killed everyone and everything we saw. At the end of that playthrough, we had to abandon it, because there were squads of Flaming Fist everywhere, and even rest ambushes were Flaming Fist. We were completely unable to progress the game. It was fun, in a way, but we didn't get very far before we had to quit, because after a while, it became unfun. The system you're laying out here is no less "exploitive" than what's in game right now, with people automatically assuming it's the PC's group that's responsible. At least in the current system, there's still a chance that you can be caught, either by a failing roll, or some random passerby taking you out of stealth. That's worlds better than being locked out of content because NPCs won't interact with you because of your reputation. I mean, even in BG, I always wondered how, with no witnesses, the Flaming Fist always knew it was us, and where we were...

I didn't say the Flaming Fist should spawn without you getting caught, but now that you mention it, they could be called to investigate crime. Logically they would arrive after a delay and possibly approach the party when it is back together, then proceed to demand to search the party's possessions. This is probably how Bioware abstracted some of the law enforcement system back in the day (though I mostly got caught red handed by magically teleporting guards).

Look, for me realism/realistic outcomes, leads to immersion, leads to fun. You want a get out of jail card for consistently heinous acts because foreseeable/realistic consequences of actions can be unfun. Are you sure roleplaying is your thing? As for being "locked out of content", I believe this game takes pride in it. Takes pride in unprecedented depth where choices really do matter. I would be very surprised if a completionist playthrough would be possible in this game. But nor did I propose locking anyone out of content, I merely advocated the implementation of a less easily exploited mechanic leading to a better roleplaying experience and better balance (pickpocketing really shouldn't be the fastest and best way to power and riches).

Last edited by Seraphael; 01/11/20 06:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Stolen items, depending on rarity, should always have a chance to be recognized when equipped on a companion. I want the possibility a friggin' Flaming Fist squad spawning yelling "I AM THE LAW!" as it proceeds to arrest or attack you or a "crime hunter" squad who investigate larger thefts and where possibly innocents are falsely accused/arrested. Anything but a quick and easy way to be more rich and more powerful as Larian usually opts for.



Ugh, maybe it's just me but I hate too much moral intrusion like that. Especially a game mechanic where loot is flagged in your inventory as either clean or stolen, and you can only sell stolen loot at a fence, not a normal merchant. The intent may be "immersion" but it ends up just being busy work for the player, especially with travel time to separate classes of merchants. I can't remember which RPG I played that had that mechanic, but I didn't enjoy it.

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Its bugged in several ways too. I have successfully stolen and had the whole faction turn red. Also I chose the option of going to jail and from then on Lae'zel couldn't fast travel or camp. Had to load from an older save.

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Originally Posted by Peranor
Even if i'm undetected and make a successful roll for pickpocket the NPC somehow still knows I stole from them a few seconds later. Is it supposed to work like that or am I missing something?
I've noticed you can cheese it by promptly fast travel away after a successful pickpocket and just wait them out. But that doesnt feel right either.


You don't really need to "fast travel", just to move a bit away from the victim with the character who acted as the thief.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by robertthebard

So what in any of this prevents "save scumming"? Assuming you're not caught, how does that Flaming Fist squad know it's you? My GF at the time and I did a murderhobo run of BG. We killed everyone and everything we saw. At the end of that playthrough, we had to abandon it, because there were squads of Flaming Fist everywhere, and even rest ambushes were Flaming Fist. We were completely unable to progress the game. It was fun, in a way, but we didn't get very far before we had to quit, because after a while, it became unfun. The system you're laying out here is no less "exploitive" than what's in game right now, with people automatically assuming it's the PC's group that's responsible. At least in the current system, there's still a chance that you can be caught, either by a failing roll, or some random passerby taking you out of stealth. That's worlds better than being locked out of content because NPCs won't interact with you because of your reputation. I mean, even in BG, I always wondered how, with no witnesses, the Flaming Fist always knew it was us, and where we were...

I didn't say the Flaming Fist should spawn without you getting caught, but now that you mention it, they could be called to investigate crime. Logically they would arrive after a delay and possibly approach the party when it is back together, then proceed to demand to search the party's possessions. This is probably how Bioware abstracted some of the law enforcement system back in the day (though I mostly got caught red handed by magically teleporting guards).

Look, for me realism/realistic outcomes, leads to immersion, leads to fun. You want a get out of jail card for consistently heinous acts because foreseeable/realistic consequences of actions can be unfun. Are you sure roleplaying is your thing? As for being "locked out of content", I believe this game takes pride in it. Takes pride in unprecedented depth where choices really do matter. I would be very surprised if a completionist playthrough would be possible in this game. But nor did I propose locking anyone out of content, I merely advocated the implementation of a less easily exploited mechanic leading to a better roleplaying experience and better balance (pickpocketing really shouldn't be the fastest and best way to power and riches).

It doesn't even have anything to do with anything like that. So far, I haven't tested out the pickpocketing. However, in a TT game, my rogue was notorious for pickpocketing people the party was talking to. I even got away with it sometimes. Sometimes, however, I didn't. That added all kinds of immersion. As to moving away from the mark, that's pretty accurate to realism. A pickpocket doesn't follow their mark around for x time, they grab and go. So the current system is a lot closer to "realism" than those magically appearing guards, or automatically being the only suspects, or even being a suspect at all, if the NPC in question never noticed you rifling their pockets.

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Stolen items, depending on rarity, should always have a chance to be recognized when equipped on a companion. I want the possibility a friggin' Flaming Fist squad spawning yelling "I AM THE LAW!" as it proceeds to arrest or attack you or a "crime hunter" squad who investigate larger thefts and where possibly innocents are falsely accused/arrested. Anything but a quick and easy way to be more rich and more powerful as Larian usually opts for.



Ugh, maybe it's just me but I hate too much moral intrusion like that. Especially a game mechanic where loot is flagged in your inventory as either clean or stolen, and you can only sell stolen loot at a fence, not a normal merchant. The intent may be "immersion" but it ends up just being busy work for the player, especially with travel time to separate classes of merchants. I can't remember which RPG I played that had that mechanic, but I didn't enjoy it.

It is interesting to me you confuse roleplaying realism/immersion with "moral intrusion". Moral intrusion would be pervasive politically correct moralizing themes or old-skool "thou shalt not". Where do you begin to allow realism to interfere with your rather preferred playstyle anyway? Is being met with hostility after going murderhobo murderizing half the Sword Coast okay or also a "moral intrusion"?

As for which game, may I propose The Elder Scroll games which also come with such a system. Boy, those games are really unpopular aren't they? I'm sure you were miserable all 500 hours spent in game lol.

I primarily want balance restored in the risk/reward mechanism when it comes to stealing. I did not propose a simple binary system where all stolen items are treated equally did I? By all means, feel pretty safe about getting away with stealing those healing potions. Not so much walking around strutting Elminster's hat reported stolen just recently. Sell stolen goods freely to a goblin trader, risk the law selling to a merchant who might recognize it as stolen however.

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Though I mostly steal gold and not items from the vendors. I'm not that keen on implementing a system similar to The Elder Scrolls where items are flagged as stolen whether or not you're seen stealing those items.
Sure, if you steal a unique, powerful and recognizable item then I can understand it. But when the pewter goblet and tinder box that you pilfered from an inn at the other side of the ocean is instantly reconized as stolen loot it's just ridiculous.

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Yeah thier pick pocket system has always been stupid. Undetected means undetected.

Also, if you force a search on someone to find nothing it's not "Oh ok, sorry". I'm sorry, that's and insult an that person owes ME. That is why the forced search is really stupid

Originally Posted by Seraphael
I'm hoping for a hidden reputation system a bit like in the original games. If things start being stolen/disappearing when the party arrives in an area - all of them will be under suspicion even if there is no direct proof. S


Oh boy, more nonsense where NPCs make assumptions with no proof. yeah that was fun in the DoS games

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Originally Posted by Peranor
Even if i'm undetected and make a successful roll for pickpocket the NPC somehow still knows I stole from them a few seconds later. Is it supposed to work like that or am I missing something?
I've noticed you can cheese it by promptly fast travel away after a successful pickpocket and just wait them out. But that doesnt feel right either.


Here’s the deal: Larian want to avoid stealing try and error and save scumming. Therefore they’ve added this DOS2 mechanisms where the NPC will check if their belongings are still there. This mechanic is just silly and the fact that you can steal a merchant is even more silly.

Sleight of hand should be used in missions and so on, not to become a rich person.

BG2 added a mechanism in some of the main merchants that they cannot be robbed. That helps to sustain the game economy. There’s only a few merchants that can be stolen and even so you could be spending your money to buy that goods because the amount of gold gained through quests was enough to purchase everything you possibly wanted.

Going that path is again going for the divinityzation.

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Peranor
Even if i'm undetected and make a successful roll for pickpocket the NPC somehow still knows I stole from them a few seconds later. Is it supposed to work like that or am I missing something?
I've noticed you can cheese it by promptly fast travel away after a successful pickpocket and just wait them out. But that doesnt feel right either.


Here’s the deal: Larian want to avoid stealing try and error and save scumming. Therefore they’ve added this DOS2 mechanisms where the NPC will check if their belongings are still there. This mechanic is just silly and the fact that you can steal a merchant is even more silly.

Sleight of hand should be used in missions and so on, not to become a rich person.

BG2 added a mechanism in some of the main merchants that they cannot be robbed. That helps to sustain the game economy. There’s only a few merchants that can be stolen and even so you could be spending your money to buy that goods because the amount of gold gained through quests was enough to purchase everything you possibly wanted.

Going that path is again going for the divinityzation.


Hmm, I used to pickpocket NPCs in TT sessions, before 4e. Wait, that means I was doing it before Larian "invented" it. A distracted NPC is less likely to notice a pickpocket attempt, that's why you see pickpockets doing things like bump and grabs, it distracts the mark momentarily, and you move off in the crowd, because you know they're going to figure out it sooner or later. So it's very much a viable way to get rich.

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Well, eventually a merchant will know "something" is gone, just have your rogue distance himself. Usually the other party memember will react like " I know nothing about it" dialogue and the merchant will eventually resume back to doing nothing important.

My problem is the antiquated reducing target value to 0 then stealing everything in 1 combat round. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Peranor
Even if i'm undetected and make a successful roll for pickpocket the NPC somehow still knows I stole from them a few seconds later. Is it supposed to work like that or am I missing something?
I've noticed you can cheese it by promptly fast travel away after a successful pickpocket and just wait them out. But that doesnt feel right either.


Here’s the deal: Larian want to avoid stealing try and error and save scumming. Therefore they’ve added this DOS2 mechanisms where the NPC will check if their belongings are still there. This mechanic is just silly and the fact that you can steal a merchant is even more silly.

Sleight of hand should be used in missions and so on, not to become a rich person.

BG2 added a mechanism in some of the main merchants that they cannot be robbed. That helps to sustain the game economy. There’s only a few merchants that can be stolen and even so you could be spending your money to buy that goods because the amount of gold gained through quests was enough to purchase everything you possibly wanted.

Going that path is again going for the divinityzation.


Hmm, I used to pickpocket NPCs in TT sessions, before 4e. Wait, that means I was doing it before Larian "invented" it. A distracted NPC is less likely to notice a pickpocket attempt, that's why you see pickpockets doing things like bump and grabs, it distracts the mark momentarily, and you move off in the crowd, because you know they're going to figure out it sooner or later. So it's very much a viable way to get rich.


Using TT in your argument isn’t helping you. In TT you don’t have savescum. Next.

Some ppl use TT when it’s convenient, when is not TT sucks. Oh damn

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Do it while invisible. Don't have to worry about their vision cone, and they won't find you once they go looking. You can also freely loot anything from red containers while invisible. (You can also read, but not take, red books while invisible.)

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Bout don't touch the idol, I tried to steal it while invisible. Obviously (I was naive) the druids immediatly react. laugh XD

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Yeah, you cannot pick up free-standing objects in the environment while invisible. You can only take things out of containers, or by pickpocketing, and not break invis.

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