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Originally Posted by Abits
I don't know... Larian used to be the text book definition of niche, but are they still a niche with millions of copies sold before the game even got released?

Dunno. But IMHO Ego Draconis is a much more "mainstream-flavoured" game, whatever the sales figures were like. It remains my personal favourite of the Larian catalogue and BG3 is probably about as far removed as one can get, but I've still had a lot of fun playing it. I'd like to see a future Divinity 3 being more like Divinity 2 (by which I specifically mean Ego Draconis, not DOS2) which is why I'm not entirely sure what to think when I see the frequent comments asserting they're the same thing. :|


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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire


based on the D&D 5e ruleset. Team-based initiative, advantage & disadvantage, and roll modifiers join combat cameras, expanded environmental interactions, and a new fluidity in combat that rewards strategy and foresight.


Literally on the steam page, the game was never going to be a pure 5e conversion, that qnd the overwhelmingly positive steam reviews for the game currently mean its doubtfully they'll cave to a vocal minority,

You will probably get a game option that removes mechanics though.

If you want pure 5e rules go get tabletop simulator



This is a bad strawman argument. You are pretending that the ONLY reason people are complaining is because it is not an exact 1:1 copy of the 5e rules, and you are deliberately ignoring all the arguments explaining, in depth and detail, why a lot of the rule changes are bad for game balance. You are offering no defense for the changes, you are not explaining how the changes are improvements to the game, you are just pretending that people are just mindlessly raging for no reason whatsoever. Taking that tactic gives you ZERO credibility.


It's also ridiculous to focus on the "based on" part of "based on the 5e ruleset" as a loophole which means they can change anything and everything. I mean, they could change anything and everything, but that's called misleading advertising, and misleading advertising is not a good way to retain repeat customers. It's also an old quote because the game no longer features team-based initiative.



Indeed Stabbey,

I’m yet to find something more dangerous than an okay’ish person that cannot use solid arguments and have as the main strategy in the attack upon the others opinions.

Op said that larien never talked about changing the rules, that is false, you are the one creating strawman

Read the full quote... it talks about advantage and surface interactions too, larien layed it all on the table

Last edited by N7Greenfire; 02/11/20 02:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by vometia

I didn't say that was the case; if anything, Larian has found its niche by specifically not being mass-market. But I am neither qualified nor authorised to speak about its business decisions; it is just my personal observation that they would need to balance the preferences of their player base.

I don't know... Larian used to be the text book definition of niche, but are they still a niche with millions of copies sold before the game even got released?


Niche primarily refers to the fact that it covers a narrow service segmentation. The fact that the market economy raised a demand for the service doesn't mean the service was logically demanded to have the segmentation diversify be definition.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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One thing to remember now is that most people who are going to buy the game just because its BG3 (like me) have already bought it, this is it, us. Most customers from now on are going to be buying it based on reviews. If Larian totally ignores what people are saying on these forums and do what they want players will post that on places like Steam hitting full release sales.

So, while they can't please everyone, how will they try to please some? Make it a 5e simulator? I know I'm not looking for that, the bits we have are enough. It is a fine line trying to please everyone. Maybe they won't even try, just take the money they have, hash together the rest of the game and make DOS 3 with the money they've already made. So whatever we say or do is just idle gossip and speculation as they will do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, the same as all game companies.

But my idle gossip and speculation is 6 man parties and space hamsters would increase sales at least a kazillion times.

And while trying to remember my AD&D past I finally remembered old D&D, max level 36, Karameikos and all the rest of it, maybe the game should change to those rules, you get more mileage out of a 36 level cap than 20. WAIT! I still have the immortals rules boxset somewhere! can we have those as well?

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There is an interview where Swen or one of the lead *insert title* say that they learned a lot from DoS2 early access. That 1) they have an expectation that they will have to kill off some of their favorite features due to community feedback, and 2) that they have prepared for reworking EA content by creating multiple modules in order to easier change different aspects of the game (less inter-dependency).

That to me is promising, but it doesn't tell us much about where the game will end up or what their current state of mind is regarding hotly debated topics.

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If Larian can't show that they're more than a one-trick pony it will hurt their name as a studio in my opinion. I mean I used to like Larian for how they communicated with their audience and I trusted them enough to back DOS1 and 2 on kickstarter. But now that I've seen EA, I'm starting to have doubts if they -can- make a game that doesn't feel like DOS3. They like their own surfaces system, splashy arrow system and bright graphics a little too much for that it seems. Honestly, I've played DOS 1/2 and never finished either of them beyond act 2. Too repetitive and the story and companions never drew me in. I would hate to have that happen to BG3 as well. Especially since I absolutely loved BG2 and NWN 1 and 2.

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Originally Posted by Abits
I think it's probably since they weren't expecting the EA to be such a huge success. There are some veterans here who were around during DOS2 who thinks Larian just gonna ignore everything and do what they want, but I honestly doubt it. We'll just have to wait and see.


I am one such veteran and it is pure slander Larian ignored everything. Point is, feedback doesn't equal implementation. As always, player A wants such and so, player B does not and thus you will always end up with somebody claiming that his holy feedback was 'ignored'. What Larian has in fact done is kept tweaking and updating DOS2 up until now. They have shown to be willing and able to continiously work on the game AND provide extra content free of charge. Whether or not the end result is to one's liking is obviously a matter of preference, but let's at the very least not repeat untruths with regards to Larian's track record.

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Originally Posted by MatronPain
One thing to remember now is that most people who are going to buy the game just because its BG3 (like me) have already bought it, this is it, us.
I doubt that, most people I know who are excited about there being a new BG game are waiting for the full release.

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire


based on the D&D 5e ruleset. Team-based initiative, advantage & disadvantage, and roll modifiers join combat cameras, expanded environmental interactions, and a new fluidity in combat that rewards strategy and foresight.


Literally on the steam page, the game was never going to be a pure 5e conversion, that qnd the overwhelmingly positive steam reviews for the game currently mean its doubtfully they'll cave to a vocal minority,

You will probably get a game option that removes mechanics though.

If you want pure 5e rules go get tabletop simulator



This is a bad strawman argument. You are pretending that the ONLY reason people are complaining is because it is not an exact 1:1 copy of the 5e rules, and you are deliberately ignoring all the arguments explaining, in depth and detail, why a lot of the rule changes are bad for game balance. You are offering no defense for the changes, you are not explaining how the changes are improvements to the game, you are just pretending that people are just mindlessly raging for no reason whatsoever. Taking that tactic gives you ZERO credibility.


It's also ridiculous to focus on the "based on" part of "based on the 5e ruleset" as a loophole which means they can change anything and everything. I mean, they could change anything and everything, but that's called misleading advertising, and misleading advertising is not a good way to retain repeat customers. It's also an old quote because the game no longer features team-based initiative.



Indeed Stabbey,

I’m yet to find something more dangerous than an okay’ish person that cannot use solid arguments and have as the main strategy in the attack upon the others opinions.

Op said that larien never talked about changing the rules, that is false, you are the one creating strawman

Read the full quote... it talks about advantage and surface interactions too, larien layed it all on the table


Thing is that everything that is listed in that quote of steam page exists in D&D rules.
Advantage and disadvantage wasn't changed, rules for giving it were.
Environmental interactions exist in D&D. Rules specifiing how they work are a bit fusy at times. But even than there are guidlines for how to calculate them.
Word "based" for me implies a lot mor similarities, that we've got.
So for me this still looks like false advatising. I made my peace with it. Couse I belive this will be a good game. And since I most likely will play with mods anyway, what is a couple extra.

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"Baldur's Gate 3 will similarly give players lots of tools and then let them have at it. "We'll stay true to our roots," says Vincke, "so we'll give players lots of systems, and lots of agency to use these systems and try to accomplish what you need to on your adventure. That's not going to change; that's the core of what we're doing." There are some things on the chopping block, however. It's an interpretation of D&D, specifically 5th Edition, because porting the core rules, which Larian tried to do, doesn't work. Or it works, Vincke clarifies, but it's no fun at all. One of the culprits is missing when you're trying to hit an enemy, and while the combat system has yet to be revealed, you can at least look forward to being able to smack people more consistently.

"You miss a lot in D&D—if the dice are bad, you miss," he says. "That doesn't work well in a videogame. If I do that, you're going to review it and say it's shit. Our approach has been implementing it as pure as we can, and then just seeing what works and what doesn't. Stuff that doesn't work, we start adapting until it does."

This interpretation should still be more true to the tabletop RPG than its predecessors, however, capturing the feel of D&D even if it's not borrowing every single system and rule. Some of this is because of a difference in technology. Black Isle faced a lot of limitations that Larian doesn't. The studio has invested heavily in this side of things"



So much for false advertisement. From the beginning they said what this game has to be.

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Originally Posted by Dastan McKay
[quote=N7Greenfire][quote=Sludge Khalid][quote=Stabbey][quote=N7Greenfire]

based on the D&D 5e ruleset. Team-based initiative, advantage & disadvantage, and roll modifiers join combat cameras, expanded environmental interactions, and a new fluidity in combat that rewards strategy and foresight.


Literally on the steam page, the game was never going to be a pure 5e conversion, that qnd the overwhelmingly positive steam reviews for the game currently mean its doubtfully they'll cave to a vocal minority,

You will probably get a game option that removes mechanics though.

If you want pure 5e rules go get tabletop simulator

Based does not mean faithfull to.

The Jackson lord of the rings films are based on the books, but are not a 1 to 1 adaptation

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Op said that larien never talked about changing the rules, that is false, you are the one creating strawman

Read the full quote... it talks about advantage and surface interactions too, larien layed it all on the table


A one-sentence marketing blurb - which is already outdated - is not "laying it all on the table".


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Based does not mean faithfull to.

The Jackson lord of the rings films are based on the books, but are not a 1 to 1 adaptation


This is a bad strawman argument. You are pretending that the ONLY reason people are complaining is because it is not an exact 1:1 copy of the 5e rules, and you are deliberately ignoring all the arguments explaining, in depth and detail, why a lot of the rule changes are bad for game balance. You are offering no defense for the changes, you are not explaining how the changes are improvements to the game, you are just pretending that people are just mindlessly raging for no reason whatsoever. Taking that tactic gives you ZERO credibility.

It's also ridiculous to focus on the "based on" part of "based on the 5e ruleset" as a loophole which means they can change anything and everything. I mean, they could change anything and everything, but that's called misleading advertising, and misleading advertising is not a good way to retain repeat customers. It's also an old quote because the game no longer features team-based initiative.

You don't have any worthwhile arguments to contribute to the discussion.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So much for false advertisement. From the beginning they said what this game has to be.


No, this is not what the game "has to be". If this is just what the game "has to be", then they could simply save themselves the hassle and not have any Early Access at all and keep the game under wraps until the full release, because that is what the game "has to be".

Larian supposedly does Early Access so players can tell them what parts of their design are good, what parts are bad, what could be tweaked, or changed, or improved for a better experience. That's why people saying that their changes to the rules are bad and are not lending themselves to a good experience are offering detailed explanations and reasoning for why they believe that to be the case.

You are not offering any defense or reasoning for why the changes should stay the way they are. Solasta has shown that the idea that 5e rules aren't fun or workable in videogame format without massive changes is false. The problem is not the 5e rules, but Larian's lack of faith in their own ability to make a fun game using 5e rules insted of the ones they had success with in the past.

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Originally Posted by vometia
. the vast majority, may have an entirely different opinion. A breakdown of the various groups and their opinions would be interesting to see, though I wouldn't be surprised if it might be "commercially sensitive".


God I hope that does not mean the lowest common denominator that does not mind just DoS3 will be listened to more for just being louder. Ah well, I will assume nothing until they talk.

Thanks again for helping us Vometia

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta has shown that the idea that 5e rules aren't fun or workable in videogame format without massive changes is false. The problem is not the 5e rules, but Larian's lack of faith in their own ability to make a fun game using 5e rules insted of the ones they had success with in the past.
A "like post" feature would really be useful on this forum, especially in this suggestion & feedback subforum. I agree with the whole post, but especially with what I've quoted here.

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Pretty much a +1 on what stabbey has said.

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I agree with Stabbey too.

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Originally Posted by vometia
I didn't say that was the case; if anything, Larian has found its niche by specifically not being mass-market.


I'm not sure I'd completely agree. I'd ascribe the success of Original Sin to it opening the cRPG genre to the wider audience (so "deniche-ing", if you will). Compared to other cRPGs, OS games are very modern-audience-friendly and casual-friendly. Of course, it's still not "tens of millions of copies sold blockbuster", but the games aren't "cult classics".

(To be clear though; I do not perceive Larian as a bunch of soulless suits. They seem very passionate about their games and all the interviews were great to watch.)

-----

Also aboard the "agree with Stabbey" train.

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What their reaction is?

[Linked Image]

Do not expect any big change to what Larian has already planned, you will be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta has shown that the idea that 5e rules aren't fun or workable in videogame format without massive changes is false. The problem is not the 5e rules, but Larian's lack of faith in their own ability to make a fun game using 5e rules insted of the ones they had success with in the past.
A "like post" feature would really be useful on this forum, especially in this suggestion & feedback subforum. I agree with the whole post, but especially with what I've quoted here.


The one problem with this statement is you assume everybody loved Solasta as much as you did.
I got the Solasta EA and while i enjoyed it i found the comabt at times very "static" i know this is due to bad luck but 4 companions missing attacks for 5 turns in a row is just frustrating.
I did like many things in Solasta but the combat not so much.
This might be due to the fact that i dont play tabletop but many of Larians potential customers dont either that's why the need to find the right balance which i really hope they do so as many as possible will enjoy the game

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Op said that larien never talked about changing the rules, that is false, you are the one creating strawman

Read the full quote... it talks about advantage and surface interactions too, larien layed it all on the table


Well you did not get the point than.
First of all i want to distance myself from "raging about not being 100%". I made clear in many threads the part i very much like about the game and i try to be fair. Also you never get 100% PC adaptation because its impossible.
When i, as a consumer, read that the game is supposed to be a DnD5e based game, i kinda expect that the game, especially the very mechanical parts, like the combat, works like the DnD5e system.

Since i am, just as most of the "complainants", NOT just wildly bashing the game, but trying to give in depth feedback on WHY many of the changes from the DnD5e rules are bad, im very much disappointed, that people like me and most others are being branded basicly as cry babies. This is very much not how constructive discussions work. Also, as i said, i´t would be absolutely fair for me if i just knew, what is going to happen. as i said, i will just accept that i wasted 60€, will be a little disappointed and move on. This topic was not about the state of the game right now, but about communication.
Because i very much feel it was a fair assumption of mine, that i get to fight combats on the PC that are very much like the DnD5e combats mechanicly. And this is for various reasons absolutely not the case.

About the "based on..." argument. This is a cheap excuse. If i release a game calling it "based on soccer" and when i release it its rocket league, then people might very understandably be mad. Yes technicly its right, that there are 2 teams trying to push a ball in a goal, but i think we can fairly agree that this is pretty much NOT a soccer game.
And the same goes for BG3 right now. Yes it uses a hit-roll mechanic, a damageroll mechanic and ability modifiers and classes that appear in DnD. Fair enough. But the way the characters behave in a combat, what they are capable and not capable of doing, what their strength and weaknesses are, how they fight, wich fights they can take, wich fights they can not take etc is VERY^20 different from DnD5e. So yes, it shares some mechanics, but most of those mechanics are also in lets say pathfinder, and noone would argue that this is a pathfinder game.

Also it is about nuances. Yes obviously i knew, that surface effects were coming. And honestly i was looking forward to it. why not. DnD is a pen and paper and such things happen and get ruled by the DM accordingly. But then the game comes and: literally every freaking goblins has arrows with surface effects, cantrips get manipulated to have surface effects, every fkin bottle you can throw has surface effects, there are a metric ton of exploding casks all over the place and you can literally win any fight in the game without even using weapons because you have those effects and can even, as a bonus action, shove people into them. This affects the value of AC there for heavily devalues the benefits of heavy armor classes, since all those effects auto-hit. this drasticly increases DPR in the game, since basicly anything you do creats strong DoT effects. I will not go in any further detail in this post, but one can easily see: "there will be surface effects" is no reliable message. The meaning of it can reach from:
"they would have put them in as a gimmicky thing to play with, but that fits in the DnD5e context" - wich i assumed, considering its meant to be a DnD based game, all the way to:
"they are so freakin damn strong that they basicly replace any weapon or spell to at least to level 3-4 and EVERYONE has them in EVERY fight" - wich is the case right now.

So also be fair on your side. I think it is absolutely fair if one has not seen that coming like this.
And also be fair in regards of "who dislikes it will just refund and only those who wanna flame around go to forums". Like no. It takes easily 3-4 hours to get like the first 5-6 fights in, with a full group on like level 2 with some gear to see a clearer picture, and i absolutely did not want to ditch that game after character creation+tutorial^^ so refund is no option.


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