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Originally Posted by Svalr
(...)
She's not a pseudo-journalist, she's very well-respected and literally worked at the largest gaming website...
You don't seem to understand my point at all, game developers work on singular projects they don't necessarily have insight on the industry as a whole.
A journalist covers *the industry*, their field is a lot more large scale.

And you ARE claiming that Baldur's Gate 3 has a bad reputation otherwise you wouldn't be talking about reversing it, read your own OP again.(...)


Game journalists are not a good source of information.

In fact, they tend to give a lot of high scores for superficial things and cinematographic experiences and low scores for games with depth and mechanic / narrative consistency. They focus on general "gaming" but an RPG fan and an Racing fan are two different things. I can't rate and review an racing game cuz I an not the target audience of racing games.

Even as a RPG fan, I would have a strong bias in favor of old school design ideas and principles.

What a random chick on a general game journalist thinks about BG3 has zero relevance about what the target audience has to say.

if was up to me, I would rate ArcaniA, Dungeon Siege 3, Albion Online, Diablo 3(...) as 1/10, BG3 in EA state as a 7/10 and BG2 as 10/10 cuz for me the best aspect of a RPG is the role playing. But game journalists would rate in the opposite. They don't care about mechanics and lore in line, depth, roleplay and only care about cinematography. Diablo 3 which is a amazing game for journos but is a 4/10 for fans. Dungeon Siege 3 is a average game for journos(72) and a awful game for fans(42)...

I even created a thread on other forum to talk ONLY about game journos https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/game-journalists-crap-reviews.134178/

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 05/11/20 03:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Svalr
She's not a pseudo-journalist, she's very well-respected and literally worked at the largest gaming website...
You don't seem to understand my point at all, game developers work on singular projects they don't necessarily have insight on the industry as a whole.
A journalist covers *the industry*, their field is a lot more large scale.

And you ARE claiming that Baldur's Gate 3 has a bad reputation otherwise you wouldn't be talking about reversing it, read your own OP again.
Just because people are giving feedback in EA doesn't mean that it has been poorly received, for someone who accuses other people of being '' obsessed '' you're basing all of this on your '' obsession '' with IGN's and Gamespot's reviews.
Like I said the game doesn't even have a Metacritic score yet, and the actual consumer base have been reviewing it positively and all of the buzz I've seen outside of the Steam forums and some threads here where mostly the same small group of people posts in has been overwhelmingly positive.
With the understanding that it's EA.
Steam forums are always full of drama and shitposting, but even then it's still very much a minority of people throwing tantrums.

The game has been a massive success even tho it's not even out yet.
And in regards to Hades and DOS2, I imagine that this game has more technical difficulties and issues than those games did just based on scale alone ( also games with these kinds of graphics tend to be more difficult ).
It's also different people reviewing the games and Hades is also a finished game, even a year ago it felt almost like a finished game already.
Comparing Hades to Baldur's Gate 3 is just silly...
Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't even have the full act 1 yet ( probably ).

I never said that mainstream media isn't influental, I just don't think that they're influental when it comes to the general public.
They're only influental because marketing haven't caught up with the times and still believe that a soccer mom being mad about hearing the F-word or getting upset about Cammy's default costume in SFV matters.
There's an irrational fear of negative media coverage when in reality people at large don't even care or thinks that it's dumb.


Alanah Pearce is a clear example of how much turn-over there is in gaming journalism and how unreliable they are. They are not required to understand market or to follow post-release success. To claim that she would have better insight into gaming sales and market than people that actually sell games like CEOs and publishers is at least bold. And even if you don't believe, it clearly matters to Swen. Regardless, this is not even the point.

I choose IGN and Gamespot because those are "the largest gaming website". Gamespot features a huge section for BG3 in its front page now. So I am quite sure that many undecided players (semi-casual) will choose to not play BG3 because of its score. Even if it is written by a casual player.

There are many poor reviews from other websites and in this forum as well, so I wouldn't say it was well received.

Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 05/11/20 03:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Svalr
(...)
She's not a pseudo-journalist, she's very well-respected and literally worked at the largest gaming website...
You don't seem to understand my point at all, game developers work on singular projects they don't necessarily have insight on the industry as a whole.
A journalist covers *the industry*, their field is a lot more large scale.

And you ARE claiming that Baldur's Gate 3 has a bad reputation otherwise you wouldn't be talking about reversing it, read your own OP again.(...)


Game journalists are not a good source of information.

In fact, they tend to give a lot of high scores for superficial things and cinematographic experiences and low scores for games with depth and mechanic / narrative consistency. They focus on general "gaming" but an RPG fan and an Racing fan are two different things. I can't rate and review an racing game cuz I an not the target audience of racing games.

Even as a RPG fan, I would have a strong bias in favor of old school design ideas and principles.

What a random chick on a general game journalist thinks about BG3 has zero relevance about what the target audience has to say.

if was up to me, I would rate the following games, I would rate ArcaniA, Dungeon Siege 3, Albion Online, Diablo 3(...) as 1/10, BG3 in EA state as a 7/10 and BG2 as 10/10 cuz for me the best aspect of a RPG is the role playing. But game journalists would rate in the opposite. They don't care about mechanics and lore in line and more cinematographic the game is, higher rate they receive. You can see it by Diablo 3 which is a amazing game for journos but is a 4/10 for fans. Dungeon Siege 3 is a average game for journos(72) and a awful game for fans(42)...

I even created a thread on other forum to talk ONLY about game journos https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/game-journalists-crap-reviews.134178/


She never said anything about Baldur's Gate 3 that's not what I am talking about at all, it's like you didn't even read what I said or what I was responding to.
And she even mentioned what you said about game journalists being biased towards the '' artsy '' side of gaming in the video in question...

Like has been stated a billion times already, Baldur's Gate 3 has been positively received overall, it IS a small minority of people complaining about it not being '' DnD enough ''.
I am sorry, but DnD is niche.
There is great interest in the lore etc, but on a gameplay PnP level it is very niche. Same with how a lot of people love Warhammer but very few actually play it.
A game being based on DnD doesn't mean that the target demographic are purist DnD fans.
Baldur's Gate 3 is Larian's take on Baldur's Gate and they're running with a formula that has proven to work.

There is also a disconnect here, because game journalists are supposed to review games as a product just bluntly.
You can't expect game journalists to all be '' hardcore fans '' of everything, and that's why there is a disconnect between game reviewers and Diablo fans.
Diablo 3 is not a bad game, it just objectively isn't on a production value none of Blizzards games are ( minus Warcraft 3 Reforged which was outsourced ).
It was reviewed as a game, not as a Diablo game.

My favorite genre of games is fighting games, I am well aware of this disconnect.
The MK franchise as a whole is an example of this, it sells on nostalgia, singleplayer and gore appeal, production value and pop culture references alone but is not actually a very good fighting game on a mechanical and gameplay level.
Most people in the FGC understands this and don't hold it in very high regard at all gameplay-wise, and yet it's the best selling fighting game franchise and gets glowing reviews and praise.
That doesn't make it a bad game or '' wrong '', even if fighting game fans don't regard it as highly as a game like Tekken or heck even Guilty Gear.
There is value in games like these that appeal to a broader audience too, even if it does irritate me on a personal level that they get so much more attention and success than games that hardcore fans consider to be better.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Svalr
She's not a pseudo-journalist, she's very well-respected and literally worked at the largest gaming website...
You don't seem to understand my point at all, game developers work on singular projects they don't necessarily have insight on the industry as a whole.
A journalist covers *the industry*, their field is a lot more large scale.

And you ARE claiming that Baldur's Gate 3 has a bad reputation otherwise you wouldn't be talking about reversing it, read your own OP again.
Just because people are giving feedback in EA doesn't mean that it has been poorly received, for someone who accuses other people of being '' obsessed '' you're basing all of this on your '' obsession '' with IGN's and Gamespot's reviews.
Like I said the game doesn't even have a Metacritic score yet, and the actual consumer base have been reviewing it positively and all of the buzz I've seen outside of the Steam forums and some threads here where mostly the same small group of people posts in has been overwhelmingly positive.
With the understanding that it's EA.
Steam forums are always full of drama and shitposting, but even then it's still very much a minority of people throwing tantrums.

The game has been a massive success even tho it's not even out yet.
And in regards to Hades and DOS2, I imagine that this game has more technical difficulties and issues than those games did just based on scale alone ( also games with these kinds of graphics tend to be more difficult ).
It's also different people reviewing the games and Hades is also a finished game, even a year ago it felt almost like a finished game already.
Comparing Hades to Baldur's Gate 3 is just silly...
Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't even have the full act 1 yet ( probably ).

I never said that mainstream media isn't influental, I just don't think that they're influental when it comes to the general public.
They're only influental because marketing haven't caught up with the times and still believe that a soccer mom being mad about hearing the F-word or getting upset about Cammy's default costume in SFV matters.
There's an irrational fear of negative media coverage when in reality people at large don't even care or thinks that it's dumb.


Alanah Pearce is a clear example of how much turn-over there is in gaming journalism and how unreliable they are. They are not required to understand market or to follow post-release success. To claim that she would have better insight into gaming sales and market than people that actually sell games like CEOs and publishers is at least bold. And even if you don't believe, it clearly matters to Swen. Regardless, this is not even the point.

I choose IGN and Gamespot because those are "the largest gaming website". Gamespot features a huge section for BG3 in its front page now. So I am quite sure that many undecided players (semi-casual) will choose to not play BG3 because of its score. Even if it is written by a casual player.

There are many poor reviews from other websites and in this forum as well, so I wouldn't say it was well received.



I don't even see the point in engaging with you anymore if you're just going to deny reality.
You put such a disproportionate amount of relevancy on a small group of people on a forum complaining.

I've explained why game journalists are prone to have a better understanding of this than a single game developer too multiple times if you're not going to listen then you're not going to listen.
If you can't understand why someone who covers and works with the industry as a whole might have a wider understanding of the whole than someone who works in a more insular space then I dunno what else to tell you.
Look at the reception of Anthem and it was Bioware's second best selling launch game ever if I remember correctly, things are a lot more complicated than you're making them out to be and I don't even think that Swen would disagree with that.

Last edited by Svalr; 05/11/20 04:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Svalr

Like has been stated a billion times already, Baldur's Gate 3 has been positively received overall, it IS a small minority of people complaining about it not being '' DnD enough ''.
I am sorry, but DnD is niche.



Completely wrong.

D&D is the most popular TT game ever. It is not a niche hobby.

Starfinder is a niche hobby, but D&D and Magic aren't.

Most negative reviews on steam mentions hp bloat and did you heard about sword coast legends? SCL abandoned even more the D&D rules. It has cooldowns instead of Vancian magic, it had dozens of times more hp bloat than BG3 and was hated with passion by the fans.

Originally Posted by Svalr

Diablo 3 is not a bad game, it just objectively isn't on a production value none of Blizzards games are ( minus Warcraft 3 Reforged which was outsourced ).



Not a bad game?

Imagine if was.

All spells scaling with the size and sharpness of your axe
Itemization being 100% stat stickie
Cartoonish wow artstyle
Cooldowns to do everything
Everyone is a clone
The necromancer male model is so androginous that I was wondering If i was playing an JRPG
Carnavalesque armor design
Ponny Rainbow levels
(...)

Diablo fans HATED it. But game journos loved it.

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3

Originally Posted by KingTiki
I mean I don't really care for random reviews, but how do you even have the guts to call those reviews "bad" when the reviews themselves are saying otherwise?


Well, Hades Early Access got 8.8; DOS 2 10/10, so...


In your logic winning 1mio in the lottery is a BAD thing, because you COULD have won 2mio instead.

Also: Were the better reviews by the same person?

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The thing is , if you have an AMAZING game on your hands even harsh critics usually do praise the game even in EA. Hades is a good example of this.
Right now things seem...very MEEH. And checking all the complaints in forums, youtube videos and such, yea its seems pretty MEEH. Larian style DnD, not much BG2 atmosphere (day night cycles, lore, graphic pallette, UI, playable NPCs....).
The overall trend is quite average. There is WAY TOO MUCH stuff recycled from DOS, and not enough from Baldurs gate games.
DOS2 in EA was WAY BETTER and more fun in my opinion....

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 05/11/20 08:00 AM.
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Reviews are very subjective & oftentimes biased in both positive & negative ways. I’m a huge fan of this game already but like all things we all have different tastes. I believe Larian will definitely be watching & working to drag this game up to 10/10.

Isn’t Dos 2 rated as one of the best CRPGs ?

Hell I loved sword coast legends & it got destroyed by critics.

Far to much negativity about BG3 but I guess it’s early days - they have a lot riding on this so they won’t go down without a fight.

As for bad reputation - where the heck does that come from - man we are very quick to attack studios these days ,I know some have behaved poorly but let’s not tar them all with the same brush.

Last edited by Tarorn; 05/11/20 09:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Diablo fans HATED it. But game journos loved it.



I was a big fan of Diablo, I was a bigger fan of Diablo 2, in fact I was an early tester of Diablo 2, Blizzard actually mailed me a disc with the game on it (the days before we could easily download games!), a year before it came out. And I LOVE Diablo 3, and think it's an improvement over the others. And I know others who feel the same. So it's not universal that Diablo fans hate Diablo 3. It's mostly just that the ones who do hate it are really, really loud about it.


As for the topic at hand, I still think that professional news outlets have no business reviewing or putting a score on an UNFINISHED game. Only independent YouTubers and such should really be doing Early Access reviews, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Diablo fans HATED it. But game journos loved it.



I was a big fan of Diablo, I was a bigger fan of Diablo 2, in fact I was an early tester of Diablo 2, Blizzard actually mailed me a disc with the game on it (the days before we could easily download games!), a year before it came out. And I LOVE Diablo 3, and think it's an improvement over the others. And I know others who feel the same. So it's not universal that Diablo fans hate Diablo 3. It's mostly just that the ones who do hate it are really, really loud about it.


As for the topic at hand, I still think that professional news outlets have no business reviewing or putting a score on an UNFINISHED game. Only independent YouTubers and such should really be doing Early Access reviews, in my opinion.


Diablo 3 has changed significantly too and it has become a lot better, I don't think that people actually genuinely hated it just that it was a disappointment after waiting such a long time that it was so different to Diablo 2 and then there was also the connectivity issues on launch.
I remember it, it was almost impossible to even play the game at launch.

I grew up playing games like Diablo 1 and 2, and this is obviously based on my own personal experience but the overall sentiment isn't that Diablo 3 is awful and that they hate it but just that it was disappointing.
I think that there's a lot of emotional investment in Diablo 3 too that caused a more negative reaction on launch with all of the issues and very different style, but a lot of that dies down and I really think that most of the negativity was due to the connectivity issue and the auction house.
I watch a lot of speedrunners for Diablo 2 too who stream and have played it since day 1 non-stop and they say the same thing, they don't think that Diablo 3 is a bad game just not what they wanted it to be.
A lot of people tho think that just because a game isn't what they want makes the game bad.

When it comes to Baldur's Gate 3 the response hasn't been like that at all, and I also think that people shouldn't overestimate the fans of the first and second games too.
Something worth noting is that it's usually a minority of people who finish games, TLOU2 had a 58% completion rate which was abnormally huge.
Most don't get anywhere near that, only 32% for example finished DA:O and I consider it one of the best RPG's ever made.
Just because Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 sold well doesn't mean that there's millions of hardcore Baldur's Gate fans who are super ultra invested in Baldur's Gate 3 being accurate to a niche thing like DnD.

And then look at a game like Path of Exile, it's fundamentally different than Diablo 2 in so many ways but people still regard it as a spiritual successor to Diablo 2.

Edit: Fighting games again are actually a good example, because so many of them have fundamentally changed to the point that they're unrecognizable and yet have been well-received because of the casual audience.
But then meanwhile the hardcore playerbase just sit there in disappointment.
I don't think that Baldur's Gate 3 is that drastic, but it's definitely going to have part of the audience that are going to be disappointed.

Last edited by Svalr; 05/11/20 02:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Svalr
I don't even see the point in engaging with you anymore if you're just going to deny reality.I've explained why game journalists are prone to have a better understanding of this than a single game developer too multiple times if you're not going to listen then you're not going to listen.


If you believe that journalist teenagers that barely understand games would have more insight than veteran CEOs with huge network with other developers and publishers, go ahead. Believe in what you gotta believe.

Originally Posted by KingTiki
In your logic winning 1mio in the lottery is a BAD thing, because you COULD have won 2mio instead.

Also: Were the better reviews by the same person?


The magnitude of your comparison does not correlate with game scores. Larian has a certain expectation for them and a score is as good as the time you invest in them. Do you really believe Larian would like a 7/10 after achieving 10/10 with 10x less budget? I am sure they care.

The scores are designed to be independent and regardless, BOTH mainstream sites and many smaller ones gave mediocre reviews. So it is the consensus not an individual opinion.

Gamespot review is in its headline and facebook already influencing a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Svalr

Like has been stated a billion times already, Baldur's Gate 3 has been positively received overall, it IS a small minority of people complaining about it not being '' DnD enough ''.
I am sorry, but DnD is niche.



Completely wrong.

D&D is the most popular TT game ever. It is not a niche hobby.

Starfinder is a niche hobby, but D&D and Magic aren't.

Most negative reviews on steam mentions hp bloat and did you heard about sword coast legends? SCL abandoned even more the D&D rules. It has cooldowns instead of Vancian magic, it had dozens of times more hp bloat than BG3 and was hated with passion by the fans.

Originally Posted by Svalr

Diablo 3 is not a bad game, it just objectively isn't on a production value none of Blizzards games are ( minus Warcraft 3 Reforged which was outsourced ).



Not a bad game?

Imagine if was.

All spells scaling with the size and sharpness of your axe
Itemization being 100% stat stickie
Cartoonish wow artstyle
Cooldowns to do everything
Everyone is a clone
The necromancer male model is so androginous that I was wondering If i was playing an JRPG
Carnavalesque armor design
Ponny Rainbow levels
(...)

Diablo fans HATED it. But game journos loved it.

Uh, no? "The most popular TT game ever" outlines very well why it's a niche game. In my current circle of friends, I am the only one that owns dice for DnD. In fact, I'm the only one that's ever played. It's not like I live in a small town of 300 or so either. Outside of the circle of people that actually play, very few people know anything about it that wasn't fed to them by a media outlet trying to shut it down, back in the really old days, claiming it's devil worship and such. Even in my Renaissance Fair circles, there weren't a lot of players. You would think, in the ultimate LARP community, there would be a lot of players, but only about 1/3 of the people in the local fairs played.

But what makes it "niche"? Everyone I know, or have ever known, has played some football, American style, and Soccer. Everyone I know has either played in, or watched live baseball/softball games. That might be insignicant, if I were only discussing a couple dozen people, but across 4 states that I've actually lived in, we're talking thousands of people. Of the hundred men in my basic training and AIT in the army, none of them had ever played. If DnD weren't niche, there would have been some. All of them had played baseball, football or basketball. There's nothing wrong with being a niche game, despite what one's pride might tell them. It just means the fans are a bit more dedicated.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Svalr

Like has been stated a billion times already, Baldur's Gate 3 has been positively received overall, it IS a small minority of people complaining about it not being '' DnD enough ''.
I am sorry, but DnD is niche.



Completely wrong.

D&D is the most popular TT game ever. It is not a niche hobby.

Starfinder is a niche hobby, but D&D and Magic aren't.

Most negative reviews on steam mentions hp bloat and did you heard about sword coast legends? SCL abandoned even more the D&D rules. It has cooldowns instead of Vancian magic, it had dozens of times more hp bloat than BG3 and was hated with passion by the fans.

Originally Posted by Svalr

Diablo 3 is not a bad game, it just objectively isn't on a production value none of Blizzards games are ( minus Warcraft 3 Reforged which was outsourced ).



Not a bad game?

Imagine if was.

All spells scaling with the size and sharpness of your axe
Itemization being 100% stat stickie
Cartoonish wow artstyle
Cooldowns to do everything
Everyone is a clone
The necromancer male model is so androginous that I was wondering If i was playing an JRPG
Carnavalesque armor design
Ponny Rainbow levels
(...)

Diablo fans HATED it. But game journos loved it.


Another thing too, the points against Diablo 3 are mostly totally superficial.
I mean the rainbow level is literally supposed to be a meme, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about it.
There are things I don't like about Diablo 3 too and I think are very valid criticisms like the itemization and most would agree on that.

Like I mentioned I grew up playing Diablo 1 and 2 and I actually enjoyed the art direction a lot, Torchlight 1 and 2 were made by old Diablo devs too and were successful and well-received too by Diablo fans.
You don't get to gatekeep who is a fan and who isn't.

The reason why game journalists reviewed Diablo 3 positively is because it's a good game, whether it's the sequel people wanted or expected to Diablo 2 is another matter entirely.
They didn't review it as a sequel to Diablo 2, they reviewed it as a game standing on its own two legs.
Which is kinda the point and their job, they're not supposed to be fanboys they're supposed to review things for the average joe.
Which again, is why games like MK11 gets glowing and quite uncritical reviews.

I also find the notion that they're somehow biased in favor of things like cartoony graphics to be ridiculous, if anything it's the exact opposite and game journalists tend to be more drawn to and value photorealism a lot more.
'' Realistic '' graphics would've been the safe option.
Most people don't sit around obsessing about their insecurity over men not looking manly enough or anything like that either.

I have A LOT of problems with mainstream game journalism, but at least I understand what their actual job is.
They don't always live up to it, I think that there is a ton of negative bias against Japanese games or sexualized content in particular from game journalists. There are definitely times where they have severe issues separating their more personal opinions from reviewing the actual game from a more neutral pov.
But generally speaking they're reviewing things from the pov of an average joe with no previous investement because that's what most people are.
And it's going to be very hit and miss with how that lines up with the reception.

In regards to the TT thing I think that Robert answered that well.
A lot of people know about DnD and games like Warhammer but very few people actually play.

Altho I'd add that while most people have probably played football at one point, very few people who watch football are actually fans of playing it themselves.
It's kinda the same with TT too and things like Critical Role, a lot of people might enjoy watching Critical Role but very few of those people will actually enjoy playing it.
Even E-sports actually has a lot of this, a lot of people watch certain E-sports games but don't like playing them.

It's important to separate interest in something from actual direct engagement with it.

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Unsure how you can review 2/3rds of the first act in an early access game tbh. Game reviews by individual gamers are too subjective a sample base anyway, they may be FPS gamers like overwatch which got 10/10/10 across the board and is a game I absolutely hate with a passion.

I don't even care if games get "very positive"on steam etc. I read many reviews and alot of the time the dislikes are petty. You have to separate the fanbois from the cynics. Even though I have many issues on the BG3 subject the game is "as standalone game" well made, fun and involved. If 2/3rds of the first act gains a 7/10 then I would scratch than down to a win in my book.

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Originally Posted by Tarorn


Hell I loved sword coast legends & it got destroyed by critics.


SCL was hated by critics AND fans.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
And I LOVE Diablo 3, and think it's an improvement over the others. And I know others who feel the same. So it's not universal that Diablo fans hate Diablo 3. It's mostly just that the ones who do hate it are really, really loud about it.


Well, look to metacritic USER reviews, look to the comments on Jay Wilson GDC and reviews of long time fans of D2 like MrLLamaSC.

MRLLamaSC had a amazing video showing why D3 is not Diablo.



Originally Posted by Svalr

Diablo 3 has changed significantly too and it has become a lot better,


RoS only fixed the loot.

The artstyle, game mechanics, character progression, etc; still completely awful and nonsensical.

Originally Posted by Svalr

Most don't get anywhere near that, only 32% for example finished DA:O and I consider it one of the best RPG's ever made.


DA:O is very long and I don't consider the best RPG ever made. In fact, is far inferior to previous BioWare RPG's like Baldur's Gate 2.

Originally Posted by Svalr

And then look at a game like Path of Exile, it's fundamentally different than Diablo 2 in so many ways but people still regard it as a spiritual successor to Diablo 2.


Because PoE has far more Diablo on it than D3 and Immortal combined.



Originally Posted by robertthebard
(...)very few people know anything about it that wasn't fed to them by a media outlet trying to shut it down, back in the really old days, claiming it's devil worship and such. Even in my Renaissance Fair circles, there weren't a lot of players. (...)


Is a anecdotal.

And the fact is, more faithful D&D games like BG3 will outsell more bastardizations of D&D games like SCL. Niche or not.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

The reason why game journalists reviewed Diablo 3 positively is because it's a good game, whether it's the sequel people wanted or expected to Diablo 2 is another matter entirely.


And the point of a game is to please the FANS, not please game journos.

If fans rate a game 4/10 and journos rate 10/10, the game is trash to the target audience. I don't care if a guy who can't pass cuphead tutorial thinks that is a masterpiece. The fans know that is a trash.


Game journalists only on past wrote good reviews. You can't compare modern game journos "i can't hit an insect swarm with an sword on pfkm, 0/10" with 90s journos. Bellow a good game journo review



This is a 90 game journo reviewing an game. As you can see, they are reviewing the game as a part of the game audience. They don't wanna an SSI hardcore RPG to be accessible to non RPG fans. The basic of critique is to critique the object of the critique according to the proposal. I an not capable of reviewing a final fantasy, xenoblade or jrpg games cuz I would probably write something like "androgynous teenager with an oversized sword. the most nonsensical weapon ever. I hate it and is very cliche, the game should let me play as a assassin, technomancer, necromancer, or something cool and the mechanics and narrative are so disconect that you don't fell immersed into the game. 0/10", the guys who should be reviewing this JRPG's are the JRPG's fans. Not an guy like myself that becomes so bored with any of this games that can't play even if I get paid to play it.

Modern game journos are AWFUL. Their reviews are completely trash.

See the reviewer that I posted giving 7/10 to TW2 and 10/10 to DA:2.

Originally Posted by robertthebard


I think that there is a ton of negative bias against Japanese games or sexualized content in particular from game journalists
.


I agree. Sexualization on western games are well received but on Japanese, criticized. It is a bias which I hate. But only proofs that game journalists are irrelevant.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 05/11/20 07:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Svalr

Just because Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 sold well doesn't mean that there's millions of hardcore Baldur's Gate fans who are super ultra invested in Baldur's Gate 3 being accurate to a niche thing like DnD.


Minor quibble: from what I've seen, the BG1 and 2 fans who are upset with BG3 are upset because it's too accurate to D&D. They don't actually like the current D&D rules and the current D&D setting.

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I am not going to continue this big argument, all I'll say is that MrLama was actually one of the people I thought of because I do watch his streams regularly.
And he has never said that he hates Diablo 3 he has acknowledged that it's not a bad game.
It's just not his thing, he doesn't enjoy it like he enjoys Diablo 2.
And he says the same about other games of that genre too.

I dunno why some people have to be so freaking extreme about everything where either something is the best thing ever created or it's the worst and you HATE it.
'' Hate '' is a very strong term and is very different than not enjoying something.
Just because MrLama was disappointed with Diablo 3 doesn't mean that he hates it.

Also there are very few games where the point is to please a hardcore audience, most games aim for a wide audience and that's who most game journalists also aim their content to.
I dunno why you're bringing up reviews from the 90's too as if the industry hasn't grown and changed substantially since then, video games nowadays is the largest entertainment industry in the world and reviews are going to adapt to that.
This applies to the whole industry too not just reviews and game journalists.

People disagreeing with you also doesn't make them not fans.
You keep trying to monopolize the term and act as if you're the arbiter of it.

Edit: I also adressed the Metacritic thing, the reviews from back then are almost all about the connectivity issues and funnily enough also people complaining about it being grindy.
Extreme reactions do happen that doesn't make a game bad, zeros and ones are just ridiculous and not a serious score but this is what happens when a game has technical problems especially at launch and when people get overly emotional about things.
There's also people reviewbombing because of the Hong Kong and Diablo Immortal thing etc.

Originally Posted by AlanC9
Originally Posted by Svalr

Just because Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 sold well doesn't mean that there's millions of hardcore Baldur's Gate fans who are super ultra invested in Baldur's Gate 3 being accurate to a niche thing like DnD.


Minor quibble: from what I've seen, the BG1 and 2 fans who are upset with BG3 are upset because it's too accurate to D&D. They don't actually like the current D&D rules and the current D&D setting.


Fair enough.

Last edited by Svalr; 05/11/20 07:25 PM.
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Well, you can only review what you have.
There are a lot of graphical glitches and some annoying questbugs. I think it would be unfair to make up a review of a game and just don't take them into account.
That's quite the problem if you decide to release a game EA, reviewers tend to nitpick on a games shortcomings (quite rightly so) and it is up to the developer to iron out these problems until the full version is released.

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Originally Posted by AlanC9
Originally Posted by Svalr

Just because Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 sold well doesn't mean that there's millions of hardcore Baldur's Gate fans who are super ultra invested in Baldur's Gate 3 being accurate to a niche thing like DnD.


Minor quibble: from what I've seen, the BG1 and 2 fans who are upset with BG3 are upset because it's too accurate to D&D. They don't actually like the current D&D rules and the current D&D setting.

I have seen the exact opposite. The most prominent way in which BG1&2 fans prefer old D&D is their desire for a 6-player-party, which isn't even that odd for 5e.

Otherwise, BG1&2 fans want BG3 to feel like the older games, through implementing day/night, UI, resting costs, random encounters, etc. But none of these things are against the spirit/rules of 5e.
Or they want the BG3 rules to be more like 5e rules (height, backstab, surfaces, disengage, shove, spellcasting rules, etc)

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Originally Posted by Svalr
Also there are very few games where the point is to please a hardcore audience, most games aim for a wide audience and that's who most game journalists also aim their content to.



Definitively not the case with STRATEGY, RPG and similar genres.

And wide audience is more often, lowest common denominator.

The point of any product is to please the target audience, not to please people who failed into game journalism and can't even pass the cuphead tutorial. That said, who Larian is aiming to please? DOS2 and modern RPG's fans. Baldur's Gate Fans, D&D fans and old school D&D fans. All of this target audiences has completely different demands. Larian should try to please then, not critics.

Originally Posted by AlanC9
Minor quibble: from what I've seen, the BG1 and 2 fans who are upset with BG3 are upset because it's too accurate to D&D. They don't actually like the current D&D rules and the current D&D setting.


Ideally, BG3 would be more 2e like not dos2 like... But between 5e like and dos2 like, 5e like is better.


Originally Posted by Svalr
I dunno why you're bringing up reviews from the 90's too as if the industry hasn't grown and changed substantially since then, video games nowadays is the largest entertainment industry in the world and reviews are going to adapt to that.


Changed for the worse.

Any product should be rated and reviewed according to his proposal. You don't see food critics complaining about gourmet food cuz "it is too expensive and fancy", when is the point of the gourmet food. Nor a ski magazine complaining that an track for Skiing on Bariloche is too hard and dangerous for people who don't dedicate themselves a lot on the hobby of ski. But you see retarded game journos(redundancy) demanding easy mode on souls series which has the difficulty as the main selling point. Complaining that PFKM is too much old school when being old school is the main selling point of the game and other retarded nonsense, like criticizing the lack of AfroPolish on The Witcher.

If every ski magazine/website only rated family friendly novice friendly tracks positively, would't be surprised that most people who dedicate a lot of money and time into the ski hobby would't consider their opinion valid. Same with gourmet reviewers if they only ranked good fast food.

----------------

If game journos are rating BG3 poorly, is cuz BG3 is good.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 05/11/20 07:30 PM.
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Loved sword coast legends - it still had d&d all over it - some D&D people need to learn to relax a bit - table top vs pc games is quite different.
And yes I played d&d for many years - it’s more than a set of rules ...

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