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#727468 04/11/20 09:39 AM
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There is such a question. The drow who worship the Eilistraee are the drow of the Seldarine?
Technically, Eilistraee is the Dark Seldarine

Would you like to see the female drow Cleric of Eilistraee in the game?

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OneManArmy #727470 04/11/20 09:49 AM
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Shes still the daughter of the Cheif God of the Seldarine, and only decided to join her mother in exile to be a source of good for the drow, technically she's open to be worshiped by everyone

N7Greenfire #727473 04/11/20 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Shes still the daughter of the Cheif God of the Seldarine, and only decided to join her mother in exile to be a source of good for the drow, technically she's open to be worshiped by everyone


I would like to play as an evil drow, but not as a drow Lolth, she is too evil even for me. I want to be a moderately evil / neutral drow who worships Eilistraee, please tell me, am I talking nonsense or is it possible by lore? Can the drow of Eilistraee do such things as helping the goblins raid the Druid Grove and support Minthara?

Or is it not possible and I need another drow god?


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OneManArmy #727478 04/11/20 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Shes still the daughter of the Cheif God of the Seldarine, and only decided to join her mother in exile to be a source of good for the drow, technically she's open to be worshiped by everyone


I would like to play as an evil drow, but not as a drow Lolth, she is too evil even for me. I want to be a moderately evil / neutral drow who worships Eilistraee, please tell me, am I talking nonsense or is it possible by lore? Can the drow of Eilistraee do such things as helping the goblins raid the Druid Grove and support Minthara?

Or is it not possible and I need another drow god?

I mean not really, Eilistraee is hard core good, all about joy, love, and tge races living in harmony with eachother, she would never abide by children or guardians of nature

N7Greenfire #727483 04/11/20 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Shes still the daughter of the Cheif God of the Seldarine, and only decided to join her mother in exile to be a source of good for the drow, technically she's open to be worshiped by everyone


I would like to play as an evil drow, but not as a drow Lolth, she is too evil even for me. I want to be a moderately evil / neutral drow who worships Eilistraee, please tell me, am I talking nonsense or is it possible by lore? Can the drow of Eilistraee do such things as helping the goblins raid the Druid Grove and support Minthara?

Or is it not possible and I need another drow god?

I mean not really, Eilistraee is hard core good, all about joy, love, and tge races living in harmony with eachother, she would never abide by children or guardians of nature


Understood thanks. Then I'll take her follower for a "good" passage in the future.

It's hard to choose between Drow Lolth and Drow Seldarine when I want to be the evil drow from the Underdark but not the sworn Lolth, but a less hardcore evil.
The drow of the Seldarine are too good drow, hmm...


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OneManArmy #727488 04/11/20 10:18 AM
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lore wise pretty major things happened in the lady penitent series.

Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun and got a bit darker whilst attempting to outmaneuver her mother for the souls of the drow that were not necessarily evil.
Eventually the gambit failed and the chosen of Eilistraee and Eilistraee herself both died.
However Corellon then appeared at the very same chess table and won on his daughters behalf, allowing her wish and removing the curse from those drow, they stopped having the black skin and white hair and instead simply had dark skin and dark hair like the original Ilythiir had had.

Of course after the events of the spellplague and the second sundering, many gods, including Eilistraee and Vhaeraun came back.



IMO the "Seldarine drow" should have been simply called dark elves, because the original drow before they became drow were still even then, called dark elves.

Lolthian drow should lose the "lolth" part in their name and just be drow. Because drow follow other drow gods than just Lolth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur... Kiaransalee etc.

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blindhamster #727510 04/11/20 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blindhamster
lore wise pretty major things happened in the lady penitent series.

Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun and got a bit darker whilst attempting to outmaneuver her mother for the souls of the drow that were not necessarily evil.
Eventually the gambit failed and the chosen of Eilistraee and Eilistraee herself both died.
However Corellon then appeared at the very same chess table and won on his daughters behalf, allowing her wish and removing the curse from those drow, they stopped having the black skin and white hair and instead simply had dark skin and dark hair like the original Ilythiir had had.

Of course after the events of the spellplague and the second sundering, many gods, including Eilistraee and Vhaeraun came back.



IMO the "Seldarine drow" should have been simply called dark elves, because the original drow before they became drow were still even then, called dark elves.

Lolthian drow should lose the "lolth" part in their name and just be drow. Because drow follow other drow gods than just Lolth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur... Kiaransalee etc.


It looks like a solution! Minthara has the "Lolth-sworm Drow" race although she no longer worships Lolth and Lolth maybe want her dead. Need to do something about it.

Also I want to see drow who worship Eilistraee in my good playthrough (drow fetish)


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OneManArmy #727514 04/11/20 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by blindhamster

Lolthian drow should lose the "lolth" part in their name and just be drow. Because drow follow other drow gods than just Lolth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur... Kiaransalee etc.

Or called Underdark Drow.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy

It's hard to choose between Drow Lolth and Drow Seldarine when I want to be the evil drow from the Underdark but not the sworn Lolth, but a less hardcore evil.
The drow of the Seldarine are too good drow, hmm...

I play mine as Lolth Sworn and headcanon him as Vhaeraun Sworn. Plays mostly the same since the background is loosely modeled around being a Jaezred Chaulssin agent.

Really want the rest of the gods to be options in game.

OneManArmy #727584 04/11/20 01:37 PM
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Yeah all you need to do is read Lady Penitent to know Eilistraee is one of most "good" gods there is. She is passionately good, so much so that even when her mother (Lolth) hates on her and is trying to destroy her, she only feels sadness for her mother and not hate back.

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good series, as was the war of the spider queen before it

OneManArmy #727675 04/11/20 04:27 PM
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I don't understand whatever happened to using google to answer these questions?

Read this: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee

or

Watch/listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxhuwbiRA

Edit: Canonically, if a cleric/paladin of a good aligned god would flip a switch and start randomly killing innocents and committing other evil crimes, they would lose all the powers granted by their gods. Paladins would become oathbreakers essentially. Clerics would not be able to cast any spells until they atone and even then a lot of deities wouldn't forgive them as easily.

I know you used the link to FR wiki in your post but you seem to not have read the contents?

Last edited by Nicottia; 04/11/20 04:32 PM.
OneManArmy #727772 04/11/20 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicottia
I don't understand whatever happened to using google to answer these questions?

Read this: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee

or

Watch/listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxhuwbiRA

Edit: Canonically, if a cleric/paladin of a good aligned god would flip a switch and start randomly killing innocents and committing other evil crimes, they would lose all the powers granted by their gods. Paladins would become oathbreakers essentially. Clerics would not be able to cast any spells until they atone and even then a lot of deities wouldn't forgive them as easily.

I know you used the link to FR wiki in your post but you seem to not have read the contents?


Yes, this question is closed. Let this be a topic discussing other aspects of Eilistraee.

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OneManArmy #727859 04/11/20 08:38 PM
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Sooo, let me guess, Eilistraee piqued your interest cause she's a drow deity and is always portrayed nude, dancing under the moon or playing instruments? wink

Nicottia #727863 04/11/20 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicottia
Sooo, let me guess, Eilistraee piqued your interest cause she's a drow deity and is always portrayed nude, dancing under the moon or playing instruments? wink

Man, I wish the Lady Penitent books came with some of this artwork. Lisa Smedman does a damn good job of describing Eilistraee's exuberant naked frolicking, but even my very vivid imagination could never conjure up images like this!! wink

Nicottia #727867 04/11/20 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicottia
Sooo, let me guess, Eilistraee piqued your interest cause she's a drow deity and is always portrayed nude, dancing under the moon or playing instruments? wink


Yes, if I pass for good, then only for that. Eilistraee is too good, I would enjoy it if my drow worshiped her. Larian can't seduce me with tieflings, but if they give good drow who serve Eilistraee and are friends with ordinary elves, then I will pass for good second playthrough


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OneManArmy #727972 05/11/20 12:06 AM
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Just pointing this out, and not to be difficult, but unless there is dialogue choices different from Lloth-sworn drow, you could just make a Seladrine Drow with Red eyes. That is what I did, but I see your point. Really, they could have just said Drow and left it at that with just eye color choices. As far as I know there is no difference between one or the other accept starting looks of red eyes and not red eyes.

OneManArmy #727995 05/11/20 12:40 AM
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I loooove Eilistraee, her story part in The War of the Spider queen was my favorite, also read the Lady Penitent thrilogy, love this goddess and her worshippers fighting style.
I wish as an Eilistraee clerics, you can get moonlight buff, song of healing, and flying swords that attacks enemy by themselves...

Zhenvision #727999 05/11/20 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Zhenvision
I loooove Eilistraee, her story part in The War of the Spider queen was my favorite, also read the Lady Penitent thrilogy, love this goddess and her worshippers fighting style.
I wish as an Eilistraee clerics, you can get moonlight buff, song of healing, and flying swords that attacks enemy by themselves...



Would be nice if you could get Bastard Sword proficiency, unless they changed her favorite weapon. Totally agree would like to see more clerical specialization benefits from deities.

kanisatha #728126 05/11/20 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Zhenvision
I loooove Eilistraee, her story part in The War of the Spider queen was my favorite, also read the Lady Penitent thrilogy, love this goddess and her worshippers fighting style.
I wish as an Eilistraee clerics, you can get moonlight buff, song of healing, and flying swords that attacks enemy by themselves...


Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yeah all you need to do is read Lady Penitent to know Eilistraee is one of most "good" gods there is. She is passionately good, so much so that even when her mother (Lolth) hates on her and is trying to destroy her, she only feels sadness for her mother and not hate back.


Starlights and Shadows does a far better job at giving a true-to-character/lore portrayal of Eilistraee and her followers than LP or WotSQ. It shows how Eilistraee works to empower the drow to find their place in the world and their happiness, and teach them the joy that they were denied, without ever forcing a choice on them. Nurturing the beauty and good that were silenced in them, helping them heal from abuse, giving them back their lives and future--that's what Eilistraee does. Her character is very much of a "beauty in the broken" and empowerer/nurturer kind of figure. In fact, Ed Greenwood designed her as a motherly goddess for the drow.

Lady Penitent and Smeman's/Athans' parts of WotSQ were sadly riddled with intentional subversion of Eilistraee's character on WotC side. Over the second half of 3e, WotC design team was intentionally trying to get people to dislike her by smearing her, before removing her for 4e (Erik de Bie, a FR author working for WotC at the time, stated that getting people to dislike Eilistraee was considered a success back then). The goal behind the removal was to "make Drizzt moar special" (as said by Perkins). They went as far as having Eilistraee do the opposite of what she's supposed to do, and having her use her people as literal pawns. Also, misandrism, militarism, intolerance, dogmatism, heavy hierarchy, massive lack of compassion/empathy, random tyrannical acts (like forcing people to convert to their religion before healing them)--every single of the things put in those books, sniped a specific part of Eilistraee's lore just to paint her as a self-righteous version of Lolth. Lady Penitent even comes with a gross, self-hate/racist message that should have never been associated with Eilistraee and should have never seen the light of the day in 2008. This is on the same level as writing Drizzt and making him a rapist.

WotC went back on those choices, restoring Eilistraee, but they went ahead and outright pretended that those books have never been written. All the stuff in those books is no longer valid, because it's been retconned in 5e. Nothing of what can be found in those books has any relevance on the BG3 setting, for example--luckily so, IMHO.

If someone who hasn't read these novels yet wants to approach them, beware of the many intentional mistakes; don't let them give you a distorted portrayal of Eilistraee. I've found a lot of people who came to hate her because they only know Smedman's/Athans' smearing nonsense--which means they didn't get to know her at all. For those interested, I'll put a number of examples of Eilistraee's lore and character being subverted in those books below (mild spoilers; I also marked a massive spoiler at the end).


In the lore, males can participate in the dances, and many dances are communal, yet Smedman--author of Lady Penitent--had a rule where males could be effing mutilated for daring to watch a dance. Even more importantly, males are welcomed and given acceptance and the support they need to find their happiness, like everyone else (there are even bits of lore that explicitly tell you that males are treated the same as females, even in articles published to supplement the WotSQ series), yet Smedman had all priestesses being abusive to any and all males. Especially Ryld, who was made to feel like "he had no place" (seriously, that's the exact opposite of what Eilistraee is all about), when he would have been welcomed and cared for, had this been true-to-character. Or Q'arlynd, a refugee who had lost everything, met with a crass and totally uncompassionate attitude by Eilistraee's priestess, and forced to swear loyalty or somesuch before being sheltered (contrary to what Eilistraee's lore says). Overall, the generally matriarchal society of the Eilistraeans, meant to paint a more positive picture of a society with women in power and taking care of their people (againt Lolth's "women in power=crap"), was distorted into a Lolth knockoff.

In the lore, Eilistraeans welcome people who struggle, who feel like outcasts, who have need of a place in the world. Smedman had them kill lycanthropes indiscriminately and for no reason, and the make some macabre trophy trees out of them worthy of Malarites, in the very region where the Eilistraeens are explicitly stated to befriend Selune-worshipping lycanthropes (Velarswood). The book heavily implies that bthey would have killed a friggin' kid, if not for Ryld. This leans towards sadism, and is typical of the Lolthites.

In the lore, Eilistraeens heal the wounded, all of them, and feed the hungry, because it's the right thing to do. Smedman had priestesses engage in friggin' dictation of faith by demanding that people convert to their religion before healing them--in the very region where it's stated that one of the main jobs of the priestesses is heal the wounded and shelter people who come there. Not only that, Qilué herself is seen friggin' exploiting a half-orc boy that they had sheltered by sending him on a suicide mission. Wtf?

The lore says that Eilistraeans have a very loose hierarchy, as they all stand on the same ground, and even Qilué is seen as a big sister (see Faiths&Pantheons). They're also a free-form faith, as they value freedom of expression. Meanwhile Smedman makes it all about hierarchy and dogmatic approaches and heavy coded rituals--typical of Lolth. Which leads to the next two points.

Eilistraeans are obviously all for building a new future for all drow and offering second chances. They're strong on compassion and redemption. Nope, Smedman has them friggin' execute a large group of defenseless drow, with no significant opposition to the order that was given to them.

When her church was joined by some Vhaeraunites (most of the didn't join), Eilistraee's priestesses mistreated them by often engaging in abuse, bullying, and even sabotage in important missions (like withholding passwords or info). Internal strife typical of Lolth.

Finally, as I mentioned before, Eilistraee is a goddess whose M.O. is explicitly stated in various sources, like Demihuman Deities, to be that of an empowerer--never forcing a choice on her people, but enabling them to find their own path and fulfill themselves (Elaine Cunningham also shows this very well in her Starlights&Shadows). She also teaches the drow that they matter as individuals, and teaches them acceptance and self-acceptance. Instead, Smedman does this (MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW):

1)Has Eilistraee literally using her people as expendable chess pawns, uncaring of their misery and agency, in a ploy to overthrow Lolth. Eilistraee was generally portrayed as massively disregarding the feelings and safety of her people--not to mention their success. This started in WotSQ, with a--let's be honest here--idiotically conceived crusade that sent 2 random low-mid level priestesses and an equally random "chosen one" with a sword to the friggin' Demonwebs, and continued in LP with the chess game, or when we even see Qilué breaking in tears when she found out that her death was part of Eilistraee's plan (which we then learn boiled down to race-changing a handful of drow so daddy would be pleased--and she wanted to kill her "beloved" chosen for that), because she had given so much to build the faith, and now she couldn't even see it flourish (and the irony is that we can't even really feel bad for Qilué, because she had done the same with that half-orc boy). Wtf is this cruelty (and utter incompetence)? This is antithetical to Eilistraee, and far closer to Lolth.

2)Smedman associates Eilistraee with a forced physical change rained on her people as "salvation" and a "reward" for their goodness (a change into lighter skin tone race on top of that, because goodness is but a shade lighter!). Smedman associates Eilistraee with a toxic idea of "redemption" as "redeem for being drow" and with the violence of a forced race-change inflicted on her people, just so that Corellon (the very dude who cursed the drow and made them what they are) would accept their race-changed version--since they were not worthy of being accepted like they were, with the bodies they were born with, and for the choices they made, apparently. They had to be "purified" for good-guy Corellon to be happy with them.

Smedman even comes to the point of stating that this was the plan all along (while Eilistraee, in over 12k years never did anything related to this, never even talked about it--she did the opposite, becoming drow herself), and that to Eilistraee&Corellon the rest of the drow (all of them, basically, since only a few hundreds were transformed) were instead "unwilling and to be cast down". All of this is associated to a goddess who has always given her all to reach to all drow, and who willingly gavce up on the luxury and comfort of Arvandor and embraced a path that she knew would be filled with hardships, to stay with all of them. Before you tell me that this was a "lifted curse", that's not the case. The few hundreds who were transformed had always been drow, drow was what they were, and that's one reason why Eilistraee herself chose to be drow to stay with them. Smedman doesn't shy from doing what comes close to mockery by showing us only transformed ones that were either horrified by it, or simply didn't give a f**k about it, reinforcing the idea that all of this thing that she presented as Eilistraee's ultimate goal was actually useless and/or harmful.

This is defeating of the very core of Eilistraee's character, and is just a gross concept. No wonder WotC pretends this stuff has never been written--thankfully.





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OneManArmy #728133 05/11/20 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Nicottia
Sooo, let me guess, Eilistraee piqued your interest cause she's a drow deity and is always portrayed nude, dancing under the moon or playing instruments? wink


Yes, if I pass for good, then only for that. Eilistraee is too good, I would enjoy it if my drow worshiped her. Larian can't seduce me with tieflings, but if they give good drow who serve Eilistraee and are friends with ordinary elves, then I will pass for good second playthrough


Well, you could make a Seldarine drow cleric of Eillistraee. IMO, more than introducing yet another subrace, they should allow every class to pick a patron deity, much like NWN2. Then again, I think that dividing the drow into 2 sub-subraces wasn't needed, and it doesn't have any match in the lore. I would have personally given the drow the ability to choose their origin (Underdark, Surface) and deity, then determine dialogue options from that.

The name they used, Seldarine drow, is also puzzling to me. The FR drow have historically been shunned by the Seldarine--even the follower of Eilistraee, whose existence is denied by many elves, because acknowledging her means that the elves too committed atrocities in the Crown Wars (like literally magic-nuking the Eilistraean nation of Miyeritar), and that they are indeed the cause of their problems (this is in Faith&Pantheons, a lore book from 3e D&D). In the above mentioned (now retconned) series of books, Corellon goes as far as not lifting a single finger to help Eilistraee, his own daughter, in fighting for the future of all the drow, and in the end his mouthpieces state that the vast majority of the drow doesn't deserve help because they're "unwilling and to be cast down" (actual quote). It's for nothing that the relationship between Eilistraee and the Seldarine is described as strained in "Demihuman Deities" (a lore book from 2e D&D).

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