Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
C
CMF Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
C
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
So was trying to figure out the best weapon combination between 1d12, 1d10, 1d8, 1d6, 2d6, 1d4, 2d4 (I think that's all the weapon dmg spreads available) with dual wield if applicable.

Originally I was just factoring highest possible damage but noticed most table top guys were looking at average damage because having to roll for damage changes the variability so much over time.

So as I plot it out it seems:

1d12 (2 handed) does 6.5 avg dmg
1d12 (2 handed w/great weapon master) does 16.5 avg dmg

1d10 (2 handed) does 5.5 avg dmg
1d10 (2 handed w/great weapon master) does 15.5 avg dmg

2d6 (2 handed) does 7 avg dmg
2d6 (2 handed w/great weapon maste) does 17 avg dmg

1d8 (1 handed) does 4.5 avg dmg
1d8 (1 handed w/dueling trait) does 6.5 avg dmg
1d8 (dual wield) 9 avg dmg

1d6 (1 handed) does 3.5 avg dmg
1d6 (1 handed w/dueling trait) does 5.5 avg dmg
1d6 (dual wield) 7 avg dmg

1d4 (1 handed) does 2.5 avg dmg
1d4 (1 handed w/dueling trait) does 4.5 avg dmg
1d4 (dual wield) 5 avg dmg

2d4 (1 handed) does 5 avg dmg
2d4 (1 handed w/dueling trait) does 7 avg dmg
2d4 (dual wield) 10 avg dmg

Does this all add up to general knowledge for TT players? Or am I doing something wrong?

What I take away from this is, if you don't pick any weapon traits, just dual wield to maximize melee dmg. If you are wearing a shield, use dualist and you can do as much as an untraited 2hander.

Never use 2handers unless you get great weapon master, but then you take a pretty big hit on your chance to hit with -5 on your attack roll.

Maybe that is all just common sense, but I had to run through it to see it. Also the 2h fighting trait is broken right now and does not apply the stat bonus correctly, so that could change who should dual wield or not.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 179
N
member
Offline
member
N
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 179
The two weapon fighting trait seems to be active all the time, even without picking the trait, thats why duel weilding is so good.

Gwm is still really good, even with the accuracy hit, as you should be jumping to flank the enemy most of the time anyway

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
C
CMF Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
C
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
Yup, all true. What I did notice is that even Larian didn't intend for flanking to be this strong. In their own tutorial it says only dex based weapons get advantage when flanking, so str based weapons are meant to be toe to toe and not get advantage.

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,013
N
old hand
Offline
old hand
N
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,013
Correct me if I am wrong but you can't actually dual wield with great weapons, so no need to put them in the dual wield charts.

Another thing to take into account, and it makes things even I think, is the fact your probability to hit with two attacks is lower than with one. So it still makes the 2H weapon do more damage on average in most situations.

Flanking does screw things up as it's way too powerful and exploitable right now.

Last edited by Nyanko; 05/11/20 09:08 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 239
S
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
S
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Correct me if I am wrong but you can't actually dual wield with great weapons, so no need to put them in the dual wield charts.

Another thing to take into account, and it makes things even I think, is the fact your probability to hit with two attacks is lower than with one. So it still makes the 2H weapon do more damage on average in most situations.

Flanking does screw things up as it's way too powerful and exploitable right now.

Dual wield is buffed again both relative to magic use and relative any other weapon style, by Larians ever-burning candles for weapon dipping. For dual wielded daggers, it doubles the base damage output for instance. You just have to be willing to go through the same ritual/exploit prior for every combat. An incredibly BAD game mechanic; repetitive, boring and unbalancing.

In general, all martial classes are HEAVILY buffed by the ludicrous ease of getting advantage (either by flanking or high ground) relative to magic-users (who in turn are both buffed by super permissive and unrealistic rest mechanics and nerfed again by barrelmancy/elemental effects). Classes such as Warlock and in particular Barbarians will be slammed hard if Larian's current homebrew is allowed to stay. Clerics too are nerfed in particular by the lack of a good way to leverage advantage on attack rolls (Shadowheart is built badly mechanically/thematically to further exacerbate this problem). The balance in D&D 5e is far from perfect, but Larian has fireballed any resemblance of balance in the game by seemingly defaulting to their DOS-mindset rather than giving D&D a honest go first. That they have failed to see this is a bit of a concern to me.

Last edited by Seraphael; 05/11/20 09:37 AM.
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 193
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 193
Once you can get multiple weapon attacks (level 5 and beyond) 2h really outshines dual wielding because you only ever get the single offhand attack.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 362
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 362
Originally Posted by Nezix
Once you can get multiple weapon attacks (level 5 and beyond) 2h really outshines dual wielding because you only ever get the single offhand attack.


Thief gets two.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 131
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 131
You didn't factor crits into your average damage, did you?

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
C
CMF Offline OP
member
OP Offline
member
C
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 150
Nope, no crits in the average as I wasn't sure how to include it, I thought I didn't factor 2handed weapons in the dual wield section? But it "does" say 2 weapon fighting, so that is misleading in titles. Also having to roll to hit twice potentially reduces the average damage of the offhand attack, but I truncated that as again, too complicated and just considering possible dmg not chance to hit included.

Extra attack at 5 is huge factor I wasn't thinking about.

I guess this all stemmed from a question I had in my head "is it worth it to pick up the dueling trait to increase single weapon dmg and use a shield? Is it comparable to dual wielding, or 2handed attacks?

What it looks like preliminary answers from the data was, everyone should just dual wield until level 4 when you can pick up Great Weapon Master.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 420
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 420
You haven't factored chance-to-hit into your calculations or bonuses from str/dex, which do have an effect when combined. Let's assume str/dex +3 and 75% chance to hit.

2H Greataxe for 1d12+3 -> Expected damage of (6.5+3)*0.75=7.125 (using greataxe because you find it earlier than greatsword)
If you have GWM, your 75% chance to hit turns into a 50% chance -> (1d12+3+10)*0.5=9.75 expected damage

Currently, the game is calculating the off-hand chance to hit and damage incorrectly
1st hand = (1d6+3)*0.75 = 4.875
2nd hand = (1d6+3)*0.6 = 3.9
Total expected damage= 8.775 (using shortswords because the 2d4 sickles are rare/you get them late)

If the game calculated it correctly:
1st hand = (1d6+3)*0.75 = 4.875
2nd hand = (1d6)*0.75 = 2.625
Total expected damage= 7.5

So yes, dual-wielding seems to be better. BUT, when the rules are implemented correctly, you are trading an entire bonus action for ~0.4 (5%) more damage.
Once you get GWM, 2H'ing is better.
Once you get extra attack at level 5 (fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin), 2H will quickly outscale dual-wielding. (greataxe without GWM will deal (1d12+3)*0.75*2=14.25 expected damage per turn)

Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by Nezix
Once you can get multiple weapon attacks (level 5 and beyond) 2h really outshines dual wielding because you only ever get the single offhand attack.
Thief gets two.

It's unclear how this will work when (if) Larian fixes off-hand attacks. 5e rules only allow off-hand attacks when you make a main-hand weapon attack, so in this case a thief would still only get 1 off-hand attack.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 170
V
member
Offline
member
V
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 170
So the general direction is that 2H is slightly better, unless you are a thief? Why would Larian fix that, though? Stealth attack is only mainhand, correct? In that case having off-hand as bonus actions makes sense.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 420
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 420
@VincentNZ
Somewhat correct. Currently, the rules aren't implemented correctly and dual-wielding is better than 2H.
When rules are implemented correctly, dual-wielding will still technically give you more damage output, but it's a very small increase in damage for the cost of a whole bonus action.
After level 4/5 depending on feats, 2H will deal more damage.

Stealth is currently only main-hand, but this will probably(?) be changed. 5e RAW you can sneak attack with any attack, once per turn. Thus you could sneak attack with your main hand or off-hand attack (but not both). You also are supposed to be able to sneak attack during attacks of opportunity, which is not currently implemented.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5