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In Faerun there are two separate cultures of High Elf:

Sun Elves - who tend to be a little haughty toward practically everybody else, including other elves and prefer to live in realms or settlements that are purely Elven if possible.

Moon Elves - who tend to deal with others eye to eye and live in mixed cultures more than isolation.

There are also at least two cultures of Wood Elf but I don't know too much about them. They're both sort of isolationist, but one is outright xenophobic. (Ah, it's the Wild Elves and the Wood Elves)

With half-elves, are they from a thoroughly integrated community like Silverymoon? If so, they aren't likely to feel any different from anybody else. Waterdeep they'd likely be made more aware of their "difference". More human or elven dominated places they'd have grown up really having their mixed heritage pointed out. (Though, if we're all going to be from Baldur's Gate...I'm suppose it's the third by default.)

Gold Dwarves haven't experienced centuries of invasion and warfare that the Shield Dwarves have so they tend to be a bit more optimistic and used to stability and peace whereas Shield Dwarves tend to be a lot more fatalistic.

With drow....

Too be honest, a lot generational surface drow should mechanically be wood elves or high elves. And that set of "drow" would have very different cultural cues than either other elves or other drow. Among other things, Eilistraee followers to be a very ministerial culture, in that there's a lot of focus on providing aid to those who are in need. Their philosophy and life-perspective also tends more towards messages of perseverance and taking stands than a lot of other elves who've tended to have more stable lives.

I'd suggest renaming the Seldarine drow into something else if you're going to have them use the same dialogue cues as Lloth-sworn drow. Because those cues make sense for Vhaerun drow or recent exiles/escapees from Lloth-sworn societies, but they don't really fit generational drow followers of Eilistraee.

Lightfoot Halflings seem to be nomadic types by and large and Stronghearts tend to be more sedentary and rural.

I am aware this would be a small mountain of extra dialogue so I'm definitely not expectant, but it would be nice to be have the difference between the different cultures represented in dialogue.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 05/11/20 10:55 PM.
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+1 i wish we could select more tags at character creation (ie, class, race, diety, alignment, background/profession/upbringing, hometown, etc.) as i think a more involved tagging system would really work to drive a feeling of immersion or place within the world of bg and/or work to make my character feel more fleshed out in comparison to origin characters that have tags in addition to their own story driven dialogue options.

i also think it would be neat if we were able to pick up tags as the story progressed too - ie affiliation with the harpers or zhents, or goblin slayer v tiefling slayer, follower of the absolute, etc. - that would give us dialogue/narrative options during gameplay

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Originally Posted by nation
+1 i wish we could select more tags at character creation (ie, class, race, diety, alignment, background/profession/upbringing, hometown, etc.) as i think a more involved tagging system would really work to drive a feeling of immersion or place within the world of bg and/or work to make my character feel more fleshed out in comparison to origin characters that have tags in addition to their own story driven dialogue options.

i also think it would be neat if we were able to pick up tags as the story progressed too - ie affiliation with the harpers or zhents, or goblin slayer v tiefling slayer, follower of the absolute, etc. - that would give us dialogue/narrative options during gameplay


I mean, that's not a new thing....Neverwinter Nights 2 had something like that.

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After I accepted the brand from Priestess Gut, once or twice I had options in dialogue with the [BRANDED] tag.

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+1

For start, I think high elves should be split into sun and moon. They're different culturally and physically. They're pretty much only together as high elves in PHB because of mechanics.

Drow imo should be renamed into "surface" and "Underdark" (and specific backstories/worship left out of it). And treated accordingly by the game.

Wild elves were just omitted, yes. Wood elves can just be wood elves. If they wanted to include wild elves, they could make a race "Sylvan elf" with "wood" and "wild" subraces. I think we have Greyhawk grugach UA.

In general, I think it would be worthwhile to put some emphasis/reactivity on subraces. They can be very different and it would be jarring if the game used one reaction for several subraces.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
+1

For start, I think high elves should be split into sun and moon. They're different culturally and physically. They're pretty much only together as high elves in PHB because of mechanics.

Drow imo should be renamed into "surface" and "Underdark" (and specific backstories/worship left out of it). And treated accordingly by the game.

Wild elves were just omitted, yes. Wood elves can just be wood elves. If they wanted to include wild elves, they could make a race "Sylvan elf" with "wood" and "wild" subraces. I think we have Greyhawk grugach UA.

In general, I think it would be worthwhile to put some emphasis/reactivity on subraces. They can be very different and it would be jarring if the game used one reaction for several subraces.


I was a little bit shocked when my "Seldarine" drow started talking about a "beautiful talent for violence".

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
+1

For start, I think high elves should be split into sun and moon. They're different culturally and physically. They're pretty much only together as high elves in PHB because of mechanics.

Drow imo should be renamed into "surface" and "Underdark" (and specific backstories/worship left out of it). And treated accordingly by the game.

Wild elves were just omitted, yes. Wood elves can just be wood elves. If they wanted to include wild elves, they could make a race "Sylvan elf" with "wood" and "wild" subraces. I think we have Greyhawk grugach UA.

In general, I think it would be worthwhile to put some emphasis/reactivity on subraces. They can be very different and it would be jarring if the game used one reaction for several subraces.

Technically, the Seldarine drow is also from the Underdark, at least you can tell by the tags.

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I think I'd rather see tags for backgrounds and possibly subclasses than subraces. A noble would likely say something different when a gate guard is being unhelpful than a soldier or criminal would. I'm pretty sure a fiend warlock has very different insights than a great old one warlock and both are potentially relevant to the plot. We already have some of this in that what god your cleric worships makes a difference in some dialogs (oddly people don't like what you say when, as a cleric of bane, you say a prayer over their dead). It wouldn't work with everything (I doubt an abjurer is noticeably different than an evoker, for example, but a draconic sorcerer may well differ from a wild magic sorcerer). In all of these cases I think the amount of work rewriting and recording dialog would be enormous and probably dwarf any benefit most people notice.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Technically, the Seldarine drow is also from the Underdark, at least you can tell by the tags.


I should have called it a "remake", not a "rename" then. Right now drow subraces remind specific backstories more than subraces, and are tied to certain deities. They force the drow PC into one of two very specific archetypes, leaving out many types of drow characters people may want to make. (At least unless they want to go with their headcanon.)

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Technically, the Seldarine drow is also from the Underdark, at least you can tell by the tags.


I should have called it a "remake", not a "rename" then. Right now drow subraces remind specific backstories more than subraces, and are tied to certain deities. They force the drow PC into one of two very specific archetypes, leaving out many types of drow characters people may want to make. (At least unless they want to go with their headcanon.)


Actually, it's a little strange I would think that if they add some drow's "sub-races" difference will be greater than few dialogues. I wonder to what extent this is an independent Larian idea.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Technically, the Seldarine drow is also from the Underdark, at least you can tell by the tags.


I should have called it a "remake", not a "rename" then. Right now drow subraces remind specific backstories more than subraces, and are tied to certain deities. They force the drow PC into one of two very specific archetypes, leaving out many types of drow characters people may want to make. (At least unless they want to go with their headcanon.)


Actually, it's a little strange I would think that if they add some drow's "sub-races" difference will be greater than few dialogues. I wonder to what extent this is an independent Larian idea.


Yeah, I kind of... don't mind drow subraces, but also don't think it's the most... worthwhile. If anything, surface drow could make sense, since they won't have the Underdark tags. They could be Baldurian drow. Otherwise... what's the point? And, if I'm not mistaken, I could make an elf worshipping Moradin. No need for "Morndinsamman Wood Elf" subrace.

I'd be all for dividing high elves though, as I've mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Technically, the Seldarine drow is also from the Underdark, at least you can tell by the tags.


I should have called it a "remake", not a "rename" then. Right now drow subraces remind specific backstories more than subraces, and are tied to certain deities. They force the drow PC into one of two very specific archetypes, leaving out many types of drow characters people may want to make. (At least unless they want to go with their headcanon.)


Actually, it's a little strange I would think that if they add some drow's "sub-races" difference will be greater than few dialogues. I wonder to what extent this is an independent Larian idea.


Yeah, I kind of... don't mind drow subraces, but also don't think it's the most... worthwhile. If anything, surface drow could make sense, since they won't have the Underdark tags. They could be Baldurian drow. Otherwise... what's the point? And, if I'm not mistaken, I could make an elf worshipping Moradin. No need for "Morndinsamman Wood Elf" subrace.

I'd be all for dividing high elves though, as I've mentioned.


Currently there is no mechanical difference between Seldarine and Lloth-Sworn drow so that would imply the difference exists for reasons of dialogue tagging....but currently the dialogue seems similar. I've heard there's a different starting cutscene for Lloth-sworn drow....? Still seems like a weird place to do a separation and then do nothing with it.

Also the "Seldarine" drow are capable of worshipping any god that's not Lloth and most of the ones we're offered are not Seldarine.

I think Corellon, Eilistraee and MAYBE Sehanine are there? Don't remember seeing any other Seldarine god on the list of what the Seldarine drow can choose as a patron.

Also to re-affirm...my belief on the dark elf subraces is that most surface dark elves are going to mechanically be Wood Elves with small pockets being mechanically High Elves. And the "drow" elven subrace is going to be pretty much the underdark dwellers either Lloth-sworn or newly emigrated.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Currently there is no mechanical difference between Seldarine and Lloth-Sworn drow so that would imply the difference exists for reasons of dialogue tagging....but currently the dialogue seems similar.

Also the "Seldarine" drow are capable of worshipping any god that's not Lloth and most of the ones we're offered are not Seldarine.

I think Corellon, Eilistraee and MAYBE Sehanine are there? Don't remember seeing any other Seldarine god on the list of what the Seldarine drow can choose as a patron.

Also to re-affirm...my belief on the dark elf subraces is that most surface dark elves are going to mechanically be Wood Elves with small pockets being mechanically High Elves. And the "drow" elven subrace is going to be pretty much the underdark dwellers either Lloth-sworn or newly emigrated.


Eilistraee is a Dark Seldarine, so if we were to go by the description, Seldarine drow don't worship Eilistraee. You know, the go-to "good drow" deity.

I think surface drow would be physically drow, so would get "stranger reactions" for drow and culturally more or less like high or wood elves - Baldurian tag.

If we were to divide by "Underdark drow who are/aren't Lolth fanatics"... I don't know if such division makes sense? Given we have many archetypes within each (sub)race and the other ones weren't divided.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Currently there is no mechanical difference between Seldarine and Lloth-Sworn drow so that would imply the difference exists for reasons of dialogue tagging....but currently the dialogue seems similar.

Also the "Seldarine" drow are capable of worshipping any god that's not Lloth and most of the ones we're offered are not Seldarine.

I think Corellon, Eilistraee and MAYBE Sehanine are there? Don't remember seeing any other Seldarine god on the list of what the Seldarine drow can choose as a patron.

Also to re-affirm...my belief on the dark elf subraces is that most surface dark elves are going to mechanically be Wood Elves with small pockets being mechanically High Elves. And the "drow" elven subrace is going to be pretty much the underdark dwellers either Lloth-sworn or newly emigrated.


Eilistraee is a Dark Seldarine, so if we were to go by the description, Seldarine drow don't worship Eilistraee. You know, the go-to "good drow" deity.

I think surface drow would be physically drow, so would get "stranger reactions" for drow and culturally more or less like high or wood elves - Baldurian tag.

If we were to divide by "Underdark drow who are/aren't Lolth fanatics"... I don't know if such division makes sense? Given we have many archetypes within each (sub)race and the other ones weren't divided.


Of late, Eilistraee is now counted among the Seldarine and her divine realm has moved to Arvandor among the other elven deities. I'm not sure her old domain in the Demon-Web Pits even exists anymore.

Downside of this is its going to make it more difficult to reach out to the drow still under Lloth's thumb since it feels like that'll make it easier to keep her influence and call away.

At the moment, the Seldarine / Lloth-sworn difference doesn't make much sense because there's apparently neither much difference in mechanics (0 difference) or narrative (seems to be the same sort of dialogue).

I kind feel that if Seldarine Drow were renamed "Apostate Drow" or something similar...it would make more sense even if it wouldn't be especially accurate given what the actual definition of apostate is.

The difference between Sun and Moon elves is quite a bit more distinct and feels like it should really be a thing, but eh...it's a CRPG, I don't expect too much.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Of late, Eilistraee is now counted among the Seldarine and her divine realm has moved to Arvandor among the other elven deities. I'm not sure her old domain in the Demon-Web Pits even exists anymore.

Downside of this is its going to make it more difficult to reach out to the drow still under Lloth's thumb since it feels like that'll make it easier to keep her influence and call away.

At the moment, the Seldarine / Lloth-sworn difference doesn't make much sense because there's apparently neither much difference in mechanics (0 difference) or narrative (seems to be the same sort of dialogue).

I kind feel that if Seldarine Drow were renamed "Apostate Drow" or something similar...it would make more sense even if it wouldn't be especially accurate given what the actual definition of apostate is.


Oh wow, you're right. How did I miss that. That's odd though, since - as you say - it kind of distances her from her people she wants to lead to "goodness"...

I was initially opposed to "apostate", but maybe it would be a good counterpart to Lolth-sworn. Then again, there's also grey area between the two.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Of late, Eilistraee is now counted among the Seldarine and her divine realm has moved to Arvandor among the other elven deities. I'm not sure her old domain in the Demon-Web Pits even exists anymore.

Downside of this is its going to make it more difficult to reach out to the drow still under Lloth's thumb since it feels like that'll make it easier to keep her influence and call away.

At the moment, the Seldarine / Lloth-sworn difference doesn't make much sense because there's apparently neither much difference in mechanics (0 difference) or narrative (seems to be the same sort of dialogue).

I kind feel that if Seldarine Drow were renamed "Apostate Drow" or something similar...it would make more sense even if it wouldn't be especially accurate given what the actual definition of apostate is.


Oh wow, you're right. How did I miss that. That's odd though, since - as you say - it kind of distances her from her people she wants to lead to "goodness"...

I was initially opposed to "apostate", but maybe it would be a good counterpart to Lolth-sworn. Then again, there's also grey area between the two.


I'm guessing it's a consequence of Eilistraee being defeated in the War of the Demon-Webs...when she returned I'm guessing Lloth had essentially shoved her out. So less Eilistraee chose to leave and more Eilistraee was forced to leave.

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As for the differences in dialogues, there is quite a lot of it (in addition to the standard drow and underdark tags), although the tag itself does not display correctly in dialogs.
I haven't played loth sworm yet but from what I've seen Seldarine's dialogue is much less bad.


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