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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
[quote]...
So far the Larian has responded to one thread -- I hate missing 8 times in a row -- but not, say, to the various loooong threads on the need for a 6 member party. Or the one issue everyone agrees upon -- party management is terrible.

Compare that to how the Solasta responded response to critiques of lighting. "We thought our homebrew was better, you told us it wasn't so we're changing course". I'd like to see more of that from Larian.
...


Maybe there are fewer PR managers or what have you, in Solasta team to influence such decisive responses. I'm not sure it's the root of the devil, but there is such a possibility. I'd like to believe Larian's stance on responses to us can change, still.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”


Not happy with this article at all. This is a dodge and lazy one at that.

I read this to say "if there is a difference of opinion about a game mechanic we'll use that difference of opinion as an excuse not to change -- hopefully the modders will you out". There are *always* differences of opinion and you only a need a few dedicated people to put up the illusion of a strong difference of opinion.


This is the part that makes me concerned as well... I was hoping I'm just reading it as a pessimist, but apparently I'm not alone in having this impression.

Most of all I just fear this means no effort will be made to address "this does not feel like BG" complaint. Sure, people can't agree what is it that makes BG BG, but what they generally do agree on is that the game does not feel like BG. And it's not just the very complainy people like yours truly. It's something mentioned in many reviews that are otherwise very positive. So Larian not addressing this at all... that would be the final nail to BG3-as-a-BG-game's coffin.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Baraz
(Astarion is rather neutral I would say).




Astarion is so evil smile More I explore his dialogues the less hope I have for saving his soul. The Myrina ending clinched it for me -- he thought the returning her husband in the form of a zombie was hilarious.

Pretty basic emotional reaction -- he finds the pain of others humorous. Maaybe there is a redemption path but it sure looks like he's planning to become a stronger and eviler version of his master.

Yeah, I think you are right all in all, but the nuance in my mind it that he does not seem like actively evil or actively seeking to cause harm. Still, you are right that his lack of empathy = evil alignment. He is the kind of evil person you can deal with, get on your side, and make useful. Like a criminal that can be cool with his friends and allies.

Last edited by Baraz; 10/11/20 07:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”


Not happy with this article at all. This is a dodge and lazy one at that.

I read this to say "if there is a difference of opinion about a game mechanic we'll use that difference of opinion as an excuse not to change -- hopefully the modders will you out". There are *always* differences of opinion and you only a need a few dedicated people to put up the illusion of a strong difference of opinion.

So far the Larian has responded to one thread -- I hate missing 8 times in a row -- but not, say, to the various loooong threads on the need for a 6 member party. Or the one issue everyone agrees upon -- party management is terrible.

Compare that to how the Solasta responded response to critiques of lighting. "We thought our homebrew was better, you told us it wasn't so we're changing course". I'd like to see more of that from Larian.

Granted, it's early days but "modders will take care of that" isn't listening. It's a way to deflect criticism.

Edit: full agreement with @uncle lester and @maximuus on this.

Technically, I agree with you guys on this. However, because for me I was already expecting to write this game off, the possibility of mods saving the game for me is a form of hope, something for me to cling to.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Human
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Sven before : I'd love doing BG3 because I love the Baldur's Gate video games and D&D is awesome.

Sven today : D&D is not so fun, we have to custom everything^^


I did not get this from this interview(maybe I missed the sentence where Swen talked about hating D&D?)
what he was talking about is how non-D&D players feel about RNG and how they will try to provide a mode(optional) for them
and if you do not like it, you can go full RNG just like the way it is right now


This was a joke, but it looks like everything they changed is because of D&D. D20 sucks, D&D has not enough things to do when you play with low level characters (there is still many spells or "actions" they could implement from D&D).

I really think they even don't try to implement D&D's rules. What about the cover mechanic that also add more tactical depths to combats ?

It looks like he could have said something like : D&D is not that fun, that's why we completely altered the mechanics. They added tons of things to improve the fact that they didn't implement enough D&D in BG3.

That's a strange way of doing a D&D game according to me... So reading 2 times in the interview "this is because of D&D" looks a little bit unreal.

But whatever, they do what they want with their game.
I'm way less a fan of D&D than a I'm a fan of BG... So I guess my only concern should be the "RTWP" (if I trust what I read).


Actually if you are mostly fan of BG, not D&D, and still you notice D&D critique by the team (Sven) as the main reason mentioned for homebrew changes, it says exactly what you've said first in this thread. Not a pleasant thought, in a perspective.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm way less a fan of D&D than a I'm a fan of BG... So I guess my only concern should be the "RTWP" (if I trust what I read).


Yeah, that was quite... idk. "Oh them silly BG fans, they just want RTwP! How quaint." I suppose saying "BG fans who would like BG3 to feel like BG" would be a faux pas in the context of the interview.

Eh, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”


Not happy with this article at all. This is a dodge and lazy one at that.

I read this to say "if there is a difference of opinion about a game mechanic we'll use that difference of opinion as an excuse not to change -- hopefully the modders will you out". There are *always* differences of opinion and you only a need a few dedicated people to put up the illusion of a strong difference of opinion.


This is the part that makes me concerned as well... I was hoping I'm just reading it as a pessimist, but apparently I'm not alone in having this impression.

Most of all I just fear this means no effort will be made to address "this does not feel like BG" complaint. Sure, people can't agree what is it that makes BG BG, but what they generally do agree on is that the game does not feel like BG. And it's not just the very complainy people like yours truly. It's something mentioned in many reviews that are otherwise very positive. So Larian not addressing this at all... that would be the final nail to BG3-as-a-BG-game's coffin.


That is the problem. We should find words we agree upon concerning "it's not a BG". And it should not be, and sound like "the grass was greener".
And it may be harder to find the words to encompass all that, than finding a solution by Larian.

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Originally Posted by Ellenhard
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”


Not happy with this article at all. This is a dodge and lazy one at that.

I read this to say "if there is a difference of opinion about a game mechanic we'll use that difference of opinion as an excuse not to change -- hopefully the modders will you out". There are *always* differences of opinion and you only a need a few dedicated people to put up the illusion of a strong difference of opinion.


This is the part that makes me concerned as well... I was hoping I'm just reading it as a pessimist, but apparently I'm not alone in having this impression.

Most of all I just fear this means no effort will be made to address "this does not feel like BG" complaint. Sure, people can't agree what is it that makes BG BG, but what they generally do agree on is that the game does not feel like BG. And it's not just the very complainy people like yours truly. It's something mentioned in many reviews that are otherwise very positive. So Larian not addressing this at all... that would be the final nail to BG3-as-a-BG-game's coffin.


That is the problem. We should find words we agree upon concerning "it's not a BG". And it should not be, and sound like "the grass was greener".
And it may be harder to find the words to encompass all that, than finding a solution by Larian.


"It's not enough BG" is not the question.
The question is "how could this game looks more like BG ?".

There are many things that could suit everyone and "easy" lead to a better "BG feeling".

First of all : more D&D and less fireworks, to summarize.

I guess everyone here agree about the TB.
That's totally not a part of the point... Even if Swen "read and matter about feedback".

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/11/20 07:42 PM.
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@Maximuuus I may be wrong, but I saw opinions here saying "I love fireworks as of now, don't touch them".

I know the poll results are easy to trick with the fresh forum accounts, but maybe there is a way to get those opinions and numbers together in a semblance of a real picture.

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More vague stuff and assumptions that everyone is on the same page. It's all air to me. I need to see progression of results. I loath "mods will fix it mentality", but I think I like loaded dice. So kind of an overall slight loss for me. Nothing concrete till next update then.

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Originally Posted by Ellenhard


Maybe there are fewer PR managers or what have you, in Solasta team to influence such decisive responses. I'm not sure it's the root of the devil, but there is such a possibility. I'd like to believe Larian's stance on responses to us can change, still.


I hope so too. But "leave it to the moders" is an excuse not to change. I think we need to be clear in our communications -- "mods will do it" means you aren't listening and that needs to chance. This needs to be repeated often and by many people.

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Originally Posted by Ellenhard
That is the problem. We should find words we agree upon concerning "it's not a BG". And it should not be, and sound like "the grass was greener".
And it may be harder to find the words to encompass all that, than finding a solution by Larian.


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
"It's not enough BG" is not the question.
The question is "how could this game looks more like BG ?".


By all means, I agree we should actively try to find the elusive "BG-ness" and good solutions to the problem. There've been several discussion on the subject and imo a lot of good points and suggestions have been made. We should continue this effort.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

I hope so too. But "leave it to the moders" is an excuse not to change. I think we need to be clear in our communications -- "mods will do it" means you aren't listening and that needs to chance. This needs to be repeated often and by many people.

I am sorry, but pray tell me - who exactly you think they should listen to?

You seem to be thinking BG3 playerbase is some hivemind here.

In the end they are right to go on with their vision and let mods do the rest - you can be sure there will be a shitton of quality mods that will tune the game exactly to your liking - whether it's RAW 5e or full course D:OS3 surface galore + more deterministic combat.

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The funny thing is that some people think that if Larian doesn't design the game the way they want it means Larian is ignoring opinions.
I'm sure that larian creates the game so that the greatest number of players will like it (everyone won't be satisfied anyway)
It would be good for some people to realize that perhaps most players don't share their opinion.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

I hope so too. But "leave it to the moders" is an excuse not to change. I think we need to be clear in our communications -- "mods will do it" means you aren't listening and that needs to chance. This needs to be repeated often and by many people.

I am sorry, but pray tell me - who exactly you think they should listen to?

You seem to be thinking BG3 playerbase is some hivemind here.

In the end they are right to go on with their vision and let mods do the rest - you can be sure there will be a shitton of quality mods that will tune the game exactly to your liking - whether it's RAW 5e or full course D:OS3 surface galore + more deterministic combat.


Hmm? Pretty sure I gave some concrete examples above. ^ Or did you want to ignore that to better make your point? wink

This isn't criticism of the mods (who are real people and not drones reading a list of talking points) but I would like see some more threads merged and pinned.

6 person party.

Party Management is awful.

HP bloat is most disliked homebrew rule.

Give us 'Solasta" / 5th ed combat rules

Would be my choice for merged threads.

Edit: and no one. No one. No human is asking for more surfaces. Vinke has been using the tadpole and is caught in a dream.

Last edited by KillerRabbit; 10/11/20 10:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Ellenhard
That is the problem. We should find words we agree upon concerning "it's not a BG". And it should not be, and sound like "the grass was greener".
And it may be harder to find the words to encompass all that, than finding a solution by Larian.


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
"It's not enough BG" is not the question.
The question is "how could this game looks more like BG ?".


By all means, I agree we should actively try to find the elusive "BG-ness" and good solutions to the problem. There've been several discussion on the subject and imo a lot of good points and suggestions have been made. We should continue this effort.


This is a few things we could think about.
There are not all directly related to "BG", because BG is old and follow old rules, but all these could increase the "BG-ness" of the game, and more.

• Day / Night cycle
• Scrolls not usable by everyone without any rules
• Reactions like in D&D because it totally change the experience
• Backstab" and "high ground advantages" are poorly implemented in combats
• HP Bloat / AC reduction completely altered the entire balance
• Cantrips shouldn’t always create surfaces
• Action / Bonus action rework + new actions added (dodge, ready)
• Dipping should at least need component
• Tone Down Enemy 'Special' Attack (surfaces arrows, surfaces potions, ...)
• Add dyes
• Add a portrait builder / Stylized Party Portraits
• Dice roll instead of the point buy mechanics (option to)
• Better UI, more "P&P feeling" UI.
• Use the worldmap for fast travel.
• Increased party size (it looks 5 is the compromise)
• Less useless items and containers, Less WTF items and more D&D items
• Get rid of the chain mechanics and add party formations

This is a very small part (~1/10th) of what I have gathered on the forum.
I'm sure they're working on some points.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/11/20 10:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Give us 'Solasta" / 5th ed combat rules


Us? Brainboi that you? I thought you died when Nautiloid crashed, glad to see you safe, mate.

Who's "us". You multiply or something?

Speak for yourself, there is no "us". The essence of what is being said in the interview. You and a bunch of other RAW loo... enthusiasts don't represent "us", they represent "you". But you, guys, are not the only people who care or should be catered too.

Last edited by Gaidax; 10/11/20 10:30 PM.
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Good list @Maximuuus. I think it combines "BG-ness" and "D&D 5e-ness," which you kind of mention.

BG-ness would be more "evoking the feeling/playstyle of BG1&2"
-day/night
-add dyes
-better UI
-worldmap
-party size
-party formations

5e-ness would be "is the game using the 5e rules and/or balanced based on 5e-like rules"
-reactions? (idk how reaction/instant spells work in 2e)
-backstab/high ground (kind of. High ground advantage/disadvantage mechanics? 5e-ness. High ground at all? Both 5e and BG-ness. But Larian is obviously not going to remove the existence of high ground)
-HP bloat/AC reduction
-action/bonus action + new actions

Both
-cantrips shouldn't create surfaces
-enemy special attack/items
-less useless items and more d&d items
-scroll usage
-dipping
-dice roll ability scores(?)

At least, this is how I'd quickly sort them.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
[quote=Gaidax][quote=KillerRabbit]Give us 'Solasta" / 5th ed combat rules


Us? Brainboi that you? I thought you died when Nautiloid crashed, glad to see you safe, mate.

Who's "us". You multiply or something?

Speak for yourself, there is no "us". The essence of what is being said in the interview. You and a bunch of other RAW loo... enthusiasts don't represent "us", they represent "you". But you, guys, are not the only people who care or should be catered too.


We will now delete those threads on your request. Clearly if you don't agree with a thread it shouldn't be merged or pinned. 'Us' can only be us if you agree that there is a consensus.


By the way you are coming across as very reasonable! Keep up the good work. <thumbs up icon>

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Good list @Maximuuus. I think it combines "BG-ness" and "D&D 5e-ness," which you kind of mention.

BG-ness would be more "evoking the feeling/playstyle of BG1&2"
-day/night
-add dyes
-better UI
-worldmap
-party size
-party formations

5e-ness would be "is the game using the 5e rules and/or balanced based on 5e-like rules"
-reactions? (idk how reaction/instant spells work in 2e)
-backstab/high ground (kind of. High ground advantage/disadvantage mechanics? 5e-ness. High ground at all? Both 5e and BG-ness. But Larian is obviously not going to remove the existence of high ground)
-HP bloat/AC reduction
-action/bonus action + new actions

Both
-cantrips shouldn't create surfaces
-enemy special attack/items
-less useless items and more d&d items
-scroll usage
-dipping
-dice roll ability scores(?)

At least, this is how I'd quickly sort them.


Backstab and High ground are mainly homebrew rules (as there are actually implemented).
They are awesome, they shouldn't remove them.

But they should probably rework them a lot, except if kangaroo, backstab and king of the hill are intended to be common "tactics".. not to say automatic tactics that do not require too much thinking.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/11/20 10:40 PM.
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