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I say hex is bugged smile

but I guess then if you use grease. then she will have a hard time to stand up and then your sacred flame will hit smile

ah no, frown its a saving throw too , so tell me, ? what is the point of this debuff on Ability check ? in a combat on a mob in a video game.

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 07:48 PM.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

yes this is not pure 5e dnd this is a video game call baldur's gate 3, this information I gave you come from the official wiki and can be tested in game.

I did just test it.

Hag who has been hexed to have disadvantage on Dex Ability Checks: 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.
Hag who has not been hexed: Also 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.

Conclusion: Hex doesn't affect STs
Of course, this might be a bug specific to hags, or Larian might want disadvantage to affect all 3 of STs, ability checks, and attack rolls but have not implemented it yet.


You are correct - Ability checks and Saving throws are totally different things, and Hex is designed to target only ability checks. Nothing in the game indicates that the spell has been changed to target saving throws (the only thing that's changed is the duration)

Here's Jeremey Crawford's ruling on it.

It'd be way too overpowered as a level 1 spell if it can affect saving throws. Imposing saving throw disadvantage is super rare in 5e as it's one of the most devastating debuffs. There's a reason why people think the College of Eloquence Bard subclass is extremely OP is because they can do precisely that.

Edited:

Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
I say hex is bugged smile

but I guess then if you use grease. then she will have a hard time to stand up and then your sacred flame will hit smile

ah no, frown its a saving throw too , so tell me, ? what is the point of this debuff on Ability check ? in a combat on a mob in a video game.



The important thing to remember is that in 5e, Skill checks = Ability checks (but with applicable proficiency). So in BG3 combat, that means:


Hexing Strength will give disadvantage on attempts to shove/grapple, and also to resist them. No grapple in BG3 yet, but we all know how powerful shove currently is.

Hexing Dexterity will give disadvantage on enemy stealth attempts. We haven't faced rogues yet, but this may come in handy in specific scenarios.

Hexing Intelligence in PnP will give disadvantage to enemies on disbelieving your illusions - i.e. via the Phantasmal Force spell. Not 100% sure how that is translated in BG3 yet.

Hexing Wisdom will give disadvantage on Perception, which translates to easier hiding for you - which in PnP helps a lot with sneak attacks (since getting advantage is harder).

Hexing Charisma in BG3 probably does the least, since we can't persuade/intimidate mid-combat. If it is implemented, it will hurt a CHA-caster's ability to dispel and counterspell higher level spells.

Nothing for CON that I can think of skill-wise.



Last edited by Topgoon; 10/11/20 08:03 PM. Reason: Additional Response
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Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
I say hex is bugged smile

but I guess then if you use grease. then she will have a hard time to stand up and then your sacred flame will hit smile

ah no, frown its a saving throw too , so tell me, ? what is the point of this debuff on Ability check ?

I think it's more likely that the wiki has an incorrect description. After all, Larian isn't the one who is writing the wiki!

Larian has already changed prone to allow 100% chance to hit with melee attacks. It makes sense that, similarly, dex ST spells would have 100% to hit.

Prone, 5e rules-as-written, doesn't give penalties to Dex STs. I think this is an example of a good decision Larian has made that allows Sacred Flame to be more powerful. Once (if) Larian implements the ability to Shove people prone, instead of just pushing them away, Sacred Flame should become much more useful

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

yes this is not pure 5e dnd this is a video game call baldur's gate 3, this information I gave you come from the official wiki and can be tested in game.

I did just test it.

Hag who has been hexed to have disadvantage on Dex Ability Checks: 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.
Hag who has not been hexed: Also 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.

Conclusion: Hex doesn't affect STs
Of course, this might be a bug specific to hags, or Larian might want disadvantage to affect all 3 of STs, ability checks, and attack rolls but have not implemented it yet.


You are correct - Ability checks and Saving throws are totally different things, and Hex is designed to target only ability checks. Nothing in the game indicates that the spell has been changed to target saving throws (the only thing that's changed is the duration)

Here's Jeremey Crawford's ruling on it.

It'd be way too overpowered as a level 1 spell if it can affect saving throws. Imposing saving throw disadvantage is super rare in 5e as it's one of the most devastating debuffs. There's a reason why people think the College of Eloquence Bard subclass is extremely OP is because they can do precisely that.




how often do you see the monster in bg3 roll Ability checks ?

but in a way I was right , disadvantage does affect ST in some cases , just not the hex spell , right ?

like if you are blinded, how can you safe VS the fireball coming in your face?

but accoring to the rule , blinded state does not affect ST but all ability checks.

but Paralyzed,Petrified,Prone,Restrained,Stunned,Unconscious all creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity Saving Throws.

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 08:07 PM.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Evandir

The early weakness of Spell Save spells are highlighted in BG3 vs 5e, because everyone and their grandma can get advantage on attack rolls, and spell saves don't get any bonuses from that.


In addition, because enemy HP is buffed as well, even hitting with it doesn't feel as solid as it should.


Yep. Especially since it has no bonuses to its minimal damage, like firebolt hitting 3 times.

I wouldn't mind if they added Toll of the dead, so that we'd at least have the possibility of doing decent damage, without burning a spellslot.

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@Evil_it_Self
In 5e combat, ability checks are mostly reserved for:
-Str (Athletics) vs Str (Athletics) for Shoving
-Str (Athletics) vs Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) for grappling.
-Dex (Stealth) checks for hiding
-Wis (Perception) for seeing hidden people
-Charisma (Persuasion/Intimidate) checks to convince the enemy to surrender

EDIT- @Topgoon gave a more detailed explanation than me, look at their post.

Idk how shoving works (and how/if grappling will work) in BG3, but if Larian matches 5e then these would be the cases for giving disadvantage to monster ability checks.

Disadvantage affects STs when the spell/ability specifically says it affects STs, yes. So not the hex spell. But, e.g., being restrained gives disadvantage on ST and attack rolls. Dodging makes enemies attack you with disadvange and you get advantage on dex STs. Etc

5e rules-as-written, being blinded does not affect STs. Again, idk how this works in BG3

Last edited by mrfuji3; 10/11/20 08:14 PM. Reason: mention Topgoon
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Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Evandir

The early weakness of Spell Save spells are highlighted in BG3 vs 5e, because everyone and their grandma can get advantage on attack rolls, and spell saves don't get any bonuses from that.


In addition, because enemy HP is buffed as well, even hitting with it doesn't feel as solid as it should.


Yep. Especially since it has no bonuses to its minimal damage, like firebolt hitting 3 times.

I wouldn't mind if they added Toll of the dead, so that we'd at least have the possibility of doing decent damage, without burning a spellslot.


I guess it was too EZ for them to not change the fire spell "effects" from DOS2 but to hard for them to balance the cleric cantrip accordingly smile

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 08:09 PM.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
@Evil_it_Self
In 5e combat, ability checks are mostly reserved for:
-Str (Athletics) vs Str (Athletics) for Shoving
-Str (Athletics) vs Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) for grappling.
-Dex (Stealth) checks for hiding
-Wis (Perception) for seeing hidden people
-Charisma (Persuasion/Intimidate) checks to convince the enemy to surrender

Idk how shoving works (and how/if grappling will work) in BG3, but if Larian matches 5e then these would be the cases for giving disadvantage to monster ability checks.

Disadvantage affects STs when the spell/ability specifically says it affects STs, yes. So not the hex spell. But, e.g., being restrained gives disadvantage on ST and attack rolls. Dodging makes enemies attack you with disadvange and you get advantage on dex STs. Etc

5e rules-as-written, being blinded does not affect STs. Again, idk how this works in BG3


thats great and all but what is the point of doing HEX con / int / wis / cha ???

this kind of rules, is good for pnp roleplaying inside a fight, but does not really translate well in a video game.

I don't know , I would change the spell a little :P to make it VIABLE for bg3

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 08:15 PM.

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Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self


thats great and all but what is the point of doing HEX con / int / wis / cha ???

this kind of rules, is good for pnp roleplaying inside a fight, but does not really translate well in a video game.

I don't know , I would change the spell a little :P to make it VIABLE for bg3


You're looking at it in a glass half empty way my friend. Hex already is a viable combat spell.

Everytime your Eldritch Blast levels up and gets an extra beam, you get another proc of hex each turn. Once your EB has 4 beams, its adding up to 4d6 extra damage per turn. That's a lot of damage.

Then you get to add the effects of disadvantage, which other people have already explained the combat uses of it.

Then as icing on the cake, this already bread and butter combat spell has the ability to help you in RP situations by giving your victims a no save disadvantage to: see if you're lying, notice you pickpocketing them, or cause an actor to fumble on stage. Now if it's worth using the spell slot in these situations is up to you, but the versatility is there.

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Sacred Flame is a Cleric Cantrip that does damage based on a Saving Throw.

Damage-wise it is low-middle, doing d6 damage with number of dice based on level. We would upgrade to 2d6 damage at level 5 but we won't see that in early release. Some types of clerics will eventually add their Wisdom damage to the roll, at 6th level. Of the three Domains currently released, that would only be Light Clerics (Life and Trickery add damage to melee weapon attacks instead).

For comparison, in the tabletop game, Firebolt does 1d10 damage, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, and Chill Touch do 1d8, and Vicious Mockery does 1d4.

Almost all damaging cantrips have a little something extra that gets added to them.

Firebolt sets on fire and does more damage than average. Eldritch Blast gets multiple attacks instead of increasing die size. Shocking Grasp prevents the target from taking reactions and has advantage against opponents wearing metal.

The special extra Sacred Flame has is that it ignores cover which is a rule that many GMs try to ignore anyway.

As it is based on a Saving Throw rather than an attack, it is dependent on the roll of the opponent rather than your own roll, which makes the reason for the failure a little bit hidden in a computer game. So you don't often see what the opponent rolled to resist.

Also, at low levels, its DCs are going to be relatively low since that is based on Proficiency Bonus and Wisdom Bonus. On average for a 1st level cleric that is a DC of 12 (8 + Prof bonus 2 + Wis bonus 2 for 14-15 Wis) or 13 (8 + Prof bonus 2 + Wis bonus 3 for 16-17 Wis). At low levels, DC 12-13 saves are going to be resisted fairly often. This will get better and more reliable as you level but at 1st - 4th it tends to feel like it lacks impact.

Also, in BG3, unlike a lot of cantrips, it doesn't apply an environmental effect like acid, fire, or ice....which gives even failed attacks on other cantrips a bit of a concession or consolation prize.

Some undead are vulnerable to it, but not all. Undead in 5e are no longer universally vulnerable to Radiant and they are also no longer universally immune to fear and charm. Whether an undead is vulnerable to Sacred Flame varies from type to type. Shadows and Vampires I'm fairly sure are vulnerable. Zombies and Skeletons, I do not believe are.

In all honesty, it is a thing I pull out when I can't get into melee range. if a 1st level+ spell would be inefficient use of resources, or if I have used my spell slots.

Clerics honestly got the short end of the attack cantrip stick in 5e, though this was fixed a bit with Xanathar's Guide to Everything bringing Toll the Bell.

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Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self


thats great and all but what is the point of doing HEX con / int / wis / cha ???

this kind of rules, is good for pnp roleplaying inside a fight, but does not really translate well in a video game.

I don't know , I would change the spell a little :P to make it VIABLE for bg3


You're looking at it in a glass half empty way my friend. Hex already is a viable combat spell.

Everytime your Eldritch Blast levels up and gets an extra beam, you get another proc of hex each turn. Once your EB has 4 beams, its adding up to 4d6 extra damage per turn. That's a lot of damage.

Then you get to add the effects of disadvantage, which other people have already explained the combat uses of it.

Then as icing on the cake, this already bread and butter combat spell has the ability to help you in RP situations by giving your victims a no save disadvantage to: see if you're lying, notice you pickpocketing them, or cause an actor to fumble on stage. Now if it's worth using the spell slot in these situations is up to you, but the versatility is there.


We are unlikely to get past 2 beams in BG3 since I think it will cut off at 10th level.

That said, I have at least once managed to cast Hex without triggering a combat. So if you Hex Cha or Wis before entering a conversation, you may be able to get an edge against contested rolls. That said, I have no idea if that use is programmed in or not.

Hex is highly useful outside of combat in the tabletop and I have completely avoided a combat while saving a teammate in combination with Minor Illusion or Silent Image with it.

There was a wyvern our party monk decided to try to talk to, for...reasons, and got one-shotted by. There was heavy fog, but it was an enemy base we were infiltrating. While the rogue was....clearing a small barracks room for our use (read killing all the sleeping soldiers), I used Hex to give disad on Wisdom (ie Perception) and Silent Image to send a distracting movement through the fog while my little halfling Undying Warlock self dragged the elven monk over rough ground a little bit at a time. The wyvern failed to find me several times due to Hex...one time turning a 20 into a 1. Though, as said, that's tabletop. Creative use of spells and such is harder to implement in a computer game.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind

We are unlikely to get past 2 beams in BG3 since I think it will cut off at 10th level.

They've gone back and reconsidered the level cap and as a result we'll be able to go a bit beyond level 10.
I don't think we know how far we'll be able to get, but considering Eldritch Blast gets its third beam at level 11 I'd say there's a very good chance of us going past 2 beams in the full release.

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Originally Posted by Bukke
Originally Posted by Thrythlind

We are unlikely to get past 2 beams in BG3 since I think it will cut off at 10th level.

They've gone back and reconsidered the level cap and as a result we'll be able to go a bit beyond level 10.
I don't think we know how far we'll be able to get, but considering Eldritch Blast gets its third beam at level 11 I'd say there's a very good chance of us going past 2 beams in the full release.


Nice. I'd definitely be willing to wait for the full release a bit longer, so they can fully flesh out some more levels.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
While the rogue was....clearing a small barracks room for our use (read killing all the sleeping soldiers)


You gotta love when your rogue gets to put his background in janitorial work to good use.

Edit added:
Yeah, I see what you mean about having difficulty using Hex in videogame RP situations. Maybe a good compromise could be to allow Warlocks to bounce their Hex from non hostile targets... without killing them.

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People may be missing the point. As an all the time spell, it sucks - yes. As a situational spell...it rocks. Prone from grease, ice, etc. = 100%. MM is the only other spell I know that has 100%. Also it ignores line of sight. So:

If you are in the crypt fight and fighting from the little room waiting for all but the last 2 to come to one by one to make the fight simple. While you are waiting, your cleric(s) can be bombing scribes outside the room with a 65% chance to hit.

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Originally Posted by RumRunner151
People may be missing the point. As an all the time spell, it sucks - yes. As a situational spell...it rocks. Prone from grease, ice, etc. = 100%. MM is the only other spell I know that has 100%. Also it ignores line of sight.


Yeah, I think that a 1d8 infini-cast cantrip which you can give a 100% hit rate and with no line of sight requirement is pretty op. Wizard to spam grease and ray of frost and run in circles with mage armor, 16 dex and armor of faith from shadowheart, who hangs out safe from harm nuking all the greasy enemies for 1d8 per turn (or 2d8 with potion of speed). It would be a good way to try and 2 party level 1 dror razlin naked - thinking of doing a 2 person party lvl1 benny hill style poverty run.

Last edited by alice_ashpool; 13/11/20 10:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by RumRunner151
People may be missing the point. As an all the time spell, it sucks - yes. As a situational spell...it rocks. Prone from grease, ice, etc. = 100%. MM is the only other spell I know that has 100%. Also it ignores line of sight.


Yeah, I think that a 1d8 infini-cast cantrip which you can give a 100% hit rate and with no line of sight requirement is pretty op. Wizard to spam grease and ray of frost and run in circles with mage armor, 16 dex and armor of faith from shadowheart, who hangs out safe from harm nuking all the greasy enemies for 1d8 per turn - or 2d8 with potion of speed.



Nothing says overpowered like two characters each spending their main action so one enemy can take an average of 4 points of damage. I, for one, salute our new Sacred Flame-wielding overlords.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by RumRunner151
People may be missing the point. As an all the time spell, it sucks - yes. As a situational spell...it rocks. Prone from grease, ice, etc. = 100%. MM is the only other spell I know that has 100%. Also it ignores line of sight.


Yeah, I think that a 1d8 infini-cast cantrip which you can give a 100% hit rate and with no line of sight requirement is pretty op. Wizard to spam grease and ray of frost and run in circles with mage armor, 16 dex and armor of faith from shadowheart, who hangs out safe from harm nuking all the greasy enemies for 1d8 per turn - or 2d8 with potion of speed.



Nothing says overpowered like two characters each spending their main action so one enemy can take an average of 4 points of damage. I, for one, salute our new Sacred Flame-wielding overlords.

dealing damage is op ^_^

Last edited by alice_ashpool; 13/11/20 10:41 AM.
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Sacred Flame at 50% to hit? Nah, i'll throw this wheel of warterdavian cheese for 99%

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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Sacred Flame at 50% to hit? Nah, i'll throw this wheel of warterdavian cheese for 99%


Why use cantrip when cheesewheel do trick?

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