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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
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The control non intuitive, the shamefull camera control... don't make me laugh, if it's not good (it is), it's even worse in BG3.

So are the musics but it's only a matter of taste. I find them way more epic and engaging but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Borislav.

No one has ever claimed that the story is very deep/interresting in Solasta or that the graphics are awesome. Usually that's exactly why players loves BG3 better.

But when it comes to combatd... BG3 looks like a brainless tactical game for children.

Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
20 developpers wink

The control non intuitive, the shamefull camera control... don't make me laugh, if it's not good (it is), it's even worse in BG3.

So are the musics but it's only a matter of taste. I find them way more epic and engaging but I admit that I'm not a huge fan of Borislav.

No one has ever claimed that the story is very deep/interresting in Solasta or that the graphics are awesome. Usually that's exactly why players loves BG3 better.

But when it comes to combatd... BG3 looks like a brainless tactical game for children.

Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...

I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the context and the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 19/05/21 07:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

Genuine question, what do you find tactical about combat in BG3?

Personally I found it repetitive and almost solely based around jumping behind your enemies or gaining high ground for advantage and/or shoving. Buff/debuff spells are almost obsolete because Larian believes the playerbase thinks they are boring and want fireworks everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.

I mean Solasta has sold 100k to 200k copies. So that means its made about 8 Million (assuming high end), minus steam fees. But that means its a super niche game, with not a lot of broad appeal. Most people want a bit more sizzle with their steak. But I think there are a core group of rule-focused D&D fanatics who don't value storytelling who will love it.

https://steamspy.com/app/1096530

As opposed to BG3 which has sold 2-5 Million copies...so far. Or $120 Million (assuming low end) minus steam fees. Has much broader appeal, has a social aspect to it (Multi), has a huge mod community who are ready to go. The potential for long term content with BG3 is HUGE. Custom Modules, exporting characters, etc etc.. BG3 has the potential to be the Game of the Decade.
I am excited.

https://steamspy.com/app/1086940


If they just fixed the Camera control in Solasta, it would make the game 10 times better. It's ridiculous. Lots of people have complained about it, but also unlike Larian they don't listen to player feedback, even a little.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't have any hardtimes with combats... Combats in BG3 are a joke my 10 years daughter could handle after reading your list for 5 minutes.

Only unfair ennemies or solo playthrough are "a bit" challenging.

20 devs with 240k $ cannot create a story or graphics as engaging as 300+ people with millions of $. It's only a matter of money.

That's a bit obvious but ofc you have to consider the gameplay/the mechanics more than the graphics / story to understand why Solasta 2 is gonna be a 1.000.000 dollar game.

On many things BG3 is better but this small indie game contain things that works way better than this AAA.

I mean Solasta has sold 100k to 200k copies. So that means its made about 8 Million (assuming high end), minus steam fees. But that means its a super niche game, with not a lot of broad appeal. Most people want a bit more sizzle with their steak. But I think there are a core group of rule-focused D&D fanatics who don't value storytelling who will love it.

https://steamspy.com/app/1096530

As opposed to BG3 which has sold 2-5 Million copies...so far. Or $120 Million (assuming low end) minus steam fees. Has much broader appeal, has a social aspect to it (Multi), has a huge mod community who are ready to go. The potential for long term content with BG3 is HUGE. Custom Modules, exporting characters, etc etc.. BG3 has the potential to be the Game of the Decade.
I am excited.

https://steamspy.com/app/1086940

If they just fixed the Camera control in Solasta, it would make the game 10 times better. It's ridiculous. Lots of people have complained about it, but also unlike Larian they don't listen to player feedback, even a little.

I agree that the potential of BG3 is MASSIVE. 100%.
And multiplayer is obviously a part of it.

Add BG3's graphics, multiplayer mode, a few more interraction with the environment, a deeper story and real companions to Solasta and it is not a "niche" game anymore. It's potential is also very good and the foundations are extremely strong for next games.

The differences you're tallking about included how it sold only comes from the size of the project and the money available. Not combats mechanics or the rules implementations/deviations.

BG3's combats are a bit brainless because it's all about the OP mechanics inside Larian's box rather than the tons of creativity allowed by the D&D box.

Ofc you may have a better experience in MP if you're playing with players that aren't the best, if you try to solo'd the game or if you don't use Larian's cheeses..

But that's a poor tactical solo game that only rely on a very limited number of OP mechanics that can be summarized in a 5 minutes to read reddit post.

And when higher difficulty levels will come we'll have to stop using the tons of D&D sub-optimal choices even more to focus on Larian's cheeses.

PS : I don't really understand your problem with the camera. From my own experience it's only a real one when you fly but anyway.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 19/05/21 08:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Solasta is a D&D simulator for a single person. You know there are companies that make those if you just want to do that all day. Probably cost less.

And its insultingly linear. I mean, hey I get it - some people need that linear kind of game that tells them to go from A to B to C - otherwise they get confused and end up with their underwear on their head and a ham sandwiched stuffed in their pants.

I love the tactical combat of BG3 personally. I am sorry you have such a hard time with encounters. I posted a list on Reddit for top ten mistakes you are making in BG3, you should check it out. Its great for new players.

But listen, I think its probably a great game for Philistines...I mean If Music, Art, Immersion and Story are things that just puzzle you anyway...

This is probably the first time I've heard about people having issues with the camera in Solasta, but I have had issues with the camera in BG3 in comparison. Though admittedly, I think your camera issues are referring to how the camera tends to go wonky if you move the camera by clicking on the map rather than normally scrolling, which is a big side effect of the verticality (and apparently nothing stopping the camera from going out of bounds via map clicking right now).

At the same time though, I've played a wide range of cRPGs, and the Larian games tend to have a different camera and overall control style than the rest that I have to spend an hour readjusting to after playing any other cRPG extensively. One could say that this is basically a litmus test to see who plays cRPGs in general, and who is only a fan of Larian cRPGs. Though one could say that BG3 actually has more verticality than say, DOS2. It arguably has even more than Solasta, but the BG3 combat mechanics in their current state make it seem more detrimental rather than adding any tactical complexity.

That said, everyone's already openly admitted that combat is really the only thing Solasta has going for it in comparison, and that's enough for people like me who understand the context and are okay with it. My main concern in regards to BG3 is that I look at the various mechanics and how the encounter balance is designed to encourage or discourage them, and I'm really not seeing how BG3 is really that tactical in its current state. The vast majority of strategies involve some variation of 'make a really really good surprise round/alpha strike', probably because the encounter balance seems to be deliberately designed under the assumption that you're always doing that to begin with, and failing to do anything meaningful in your attempt immediately causes things to go to hell in most situations. That's not tactical at all, that's just flipping the chess board and saying you won the game.

I've noted that players being able to mount an effective comeback when things go wrong is pretty rare in this game, due to a combination of being grossly outnumbered or the absurd action economy that everyone has. The comebacks I've done mostly consisted of Healing Word abuse on a downed party member, and that's a case of AI manipulation more than anything else. Maybe the phase spider fight could be an example of mounting an effective comeback, but you can't really alpha strike the phase spider fight to begin with unless you are already 100% aware of how the fight works, and you can't argue that 'destroy the webs that they are conveniently standing on' is tactical when the game straight up implies that this is what you are supposed to be doing. It's a nice setpiece mechanic, but people shouldn't be acting like they have choices in that matter or that they're any smarter than anyone else for using it.

Even without all the comparisons to tabletop DnD, the combat design is still an unbalanced mess that - let's be perfectly honest with ourselves here - would be considered completely unacceptable among most turn-based enthusiasts if it wasn't a Larian game.

(And if people look far back enough in my posting history to see when I cared enough to argue about this kind of stuff, one would notice that I barely give a damn about faithfulness to 5E rules, and far more about how the mechanics actually interact with each other. I would be in favor of changes if they were good and sensible changes to begin with, but they're clearly not at this point. And I only care about proper reactions this much because the complete lack of them is a total net loss to tactical variety and could potentially offset some of the imbalance brought about with the changes, and I have yet to hear any argument about why the lack of them is a good thing other than silly theoretical vague 'immersion!' concerns.)

Also, you seem excessively hostile over this topic for some reason. Should probably tone down the emotion there, or people will get the wrong impression and respond in kind. I mean, really, I only made an offhand comment about another cRPG being on Gamepass while we wait for the next patch. And then you went and turned it into... This.

On another topic, I saw your top 10 mistakes thread on Reddit a few days ago. So I'm going to break down what each point actually means to me.

https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...mistakes_you_are_making_in_bg3_or_how_i/

1) True Strike requires a bit of thought to use, but it's generally not worth the opportunity cost. It's mostly for removing disadvantage on yourself on the next turn, provided you are able to maintain it. It can also be argued to be a net gain for classes that get extra attack, but as we are level capped at 4, we don't get to see this for ourselves in BG3 yet. Though let's be real here, with such easy ways to gain advantage in BG3, it's worse in this game than in most traditional DnD gameplay.

2) Item-based debilitation. A common mistake, but irrelevant to this discussion at least.

3) True for all of DnD.

4) True for all of DnD. The Shadowheart example by the way needs an extra footnote - she used to have more Strength than Dexterity, before Patch 3 (or was it 4) shifted her Strength points into Dexterity so that she can actually act as an off-tank. That mace she starts with is likely getting replaced with a dagger and light crossbow later.

5) Imbalanced homebrew rule. An example of what I argue above, although this is more advantageous for the player than the enemy as currently, the enemy AI does not exploit this. But should backstabbing remain as is, and the eventual Tactican mode sees the enemy Ai upgraded to exploit it along with the bonus action jumps and disengage... What will people say then? (This has a high probability of happening, after having gone through numerous Tactican playthroughs in DOS:2. And I mean REAL Tactican with a full party, not lone wolf cheese like most of the community needs to handle that level of difficulty.)

6) Imbalanced homebrew rule. Many of us have said enough on this particular subject already.

7) True for ranged weapons not provoking opportunity attacks, but actually 100% false for shields not protecting you even with it being stowed away, at least in regards to BG3 right now. Unless the recent hotfixes changed something, your AC value currently does not change between wielding a bow VS wielding a shield and one-handed weapon in your other weapon loadout.

8) True for all of DnD.

9) Another high ground observation, with an ambush/alpha strike focus.

10) True for all of DnD, though the exact importance of darkvision is going to depend on how often we're actually going to be in dark caves in this campaign.

That said, your list can basically be broken down into three categories. Stat-based mistakes, tactical mistakes, and item-based mistakes. It's the tactical mistakes that people are focusing on, they're the ones that involve the greatest deviations from the base rules, and they're the ones with a disproportionate effect on the game's combat flow than anything else in the game for various reasons - most of all being heavily encouraging ambush/alpha strike mentality, because actually engaging with the negative aspects of these mechanics is like rowing up shit creek because you actually have to wrestle with the RNG there, and in a definitely not interesting way.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[/quote]

I agree that the potential of BG3 is MASSIVE. 100%.
And multiplayer is obviously a part of it.

Add BG3's graphics, multiplayer mode, a few more interraction with the environment, a deeper story and real companions to Solasta and it is not a "niche" game anymore. It's potential is also very good and the foundations are extremely strong for next games.

The differences you're tallking about included how it sold only comes from the size of the project and the money available. Not combats mechanics or the rules implementations/deviations.

BG3's combats are a bit brainless because it's all about the OP mechanics inside Larian's box rather than the tons of creativity allowed by the D&D box.

Ofc you may have a better experience in MP if you're playing with players that aren't the best, if you try to solo'd the game or if you don't use Larian's cheeses..

But that's a poor tactical solo game that only rely on a very limited number of OP mechanics that can be summarized in a 5 minutes to read reddit post.

And when higher difficulty levels will come we'll have to stop using the tons of D&D sub-optimal choices even more to focus on Larian's cheeses.

PS : I don't really understand your problem with the camera. From my own experience it's only a real one when you fly but anyway.

This is something we agree on, they need to fix the cheese, and I am a big advocate of that. I don't use the cheesy stuff myself.


No jumping to disengage (unless rogue). No throwing creatures around. No barrelmancy. Shove needs to be a full action.

All three of those need to be removed and shove needs modified.

I have faith that they will address these issues given time. I would rather not depend on the mod community to fix it.

I don't know of anything else that really counts as cheese. Combat stealth feels more like a bug.

Solasta has no plans to build Multiplayer into it. The Developers have said as much. Multiplayer has to be built into a game from the ground up, to try to do it after the fact is nearly impossible and results in bad/buggy multiplayer.

The rotating camera should be controlled by the center mouse wheel by pushing it, like every other game does. You can't even re-map the keys to the mouse. You can't slow down the turn speed. Ugh.

What else do you see as cheese?


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
What else do you see as cheese?

Container in container and fill up with items to throw for massive damage
Throwing healing potions next to someone.

And annoying stuff like poison on ground poisons your through your boots (it's not a cloud, it's not acid).

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Trash talking Solasta on someone else's forum won't make BG3 any better.

When people highlight Solasta's good features, it's not to downgrade BG3, well hopefully.
Perhaps they also know what kept BG1 / BG2 and other games being played for two decades. And they want to have it in BG3 too.

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Originally Posted by Blacas
Trash talking Solasta on someone else's forum won't make BG3 any better.

When people highlight Solasta's good features, it's not to downgrade BG3, well hopefully.
Perhaps they also know what kept BG1 / BG2 and other games being played for two decades. And they want to have it in BG3 too.

Are we talking about a Solasta again? Seriously? BG1 / BG2 is old games think about it. This games don't have many new players because the players ' preferences have changed. I never tired of reminding you that Solasta and Pathfinder are games that are designed for a narrower audience.

I know, I know, Maximus is going to say that some traditional things in games are still good for everyone, which is why I'm tired of you guys constantly bringing up this theme here... You all discuss the same thing over and over again. Even if BG3 needs changes, it just annoys me that you constantly discuss this in the context Solasta or DnD, think about a good video game for everyone, not just for board game lovers.


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I mean, I was a "new player" for BG1 and 2. Maybe they don't get "many new players" but they do get pretty loyal players that start to add up as consistent buyers.

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I mean ... its certainly in topic to talk about Solasta once aggain. :-/
Not if that woulnt be fun watchin you be like: "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > "A is better!" > "No, B is better!" > ...

But lets return to more pressing matters for a second, please. laugh
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Today is THE day !
What day? O_o


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Are we talking about a Solasta again? Seriously? BG1 / BG2 is old games think about it. This games don't have many new players because the players ' preferences have changed. I never tired of reminding you that Solasta and Pathfinder are games that are designed for a narrower audience.

I know, I know, Maximus is going to say that some traditional things in games are still good for everyone, which is why I'm tired of you guys constantly bringing up this theme here... You all discuss the same thing over and over again. Even if BG3 needs changes, it just annoys me that you constantly discuss this in the context Solasta or DnD, think about a good video game for everyone, not just for board game lovers.

Fair enough, the Solasta comparisons maybe get a little tired but BG3 by definition is based on D&D; nobody is asking for carbon copy of the tabletop game, they're asking for something that does justice to the legacy of the previous BG games and at its root is a D&D game. Plonking DOS mechanics in a D&D environment does not make it a bonafide D&D game. The original BG games might be old but they are fantastic ones at that and BG3 could learn a lot from them. Technically speaking the old BG games do have 'new players, or at least recent ones, because of the Extended Editions, opening up the games to the iOS and tablet market.

BG3 is the same kind of party based CRPG as Solasta/Pathfinder, so really the target audiences are the same if not very similar. Having fancy cinematics will no doubt appeal to a broader audience but at their roots they are the same kind of game. BG3 is not necessarily going to appeal to people who are not RPG fans.

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Solasta's and Pathfinder's target audience is a much narrower one than BG3. They can still be successful with a smaller target audience because they also have a smaller budget.

For myself I am only currently interested in BG3 of the 3. From what I have read Solasta has weak characters and story, and choices don't impact the story. Pathfinder's characters look interesting, but it lacks cinematic dialogue, which is important to me, and also has harsh resting penalties, which is a big negative to me.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Maybe they are saving for E3
A good guess! smile

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Discriminating and rejecting ideas and arguments based on their origin (or age) is not "fair enough". It is a mark of totalitarism. However I am not the one arguing about Solasta specifically.
Anyways, my reply to an aggressive post intended to stress out that 1- it does not help BG3 get a better content, 2- it may be detrimental to Larian's image as this is posted on their own forum. And I did it because I tend to appreciate what the involved parties usually post on this forum.

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Oh, do we have another Solasta topic...?

<_<


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META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.
i think people are just joking that due to the preferences of vocal posters every topic becomes a Solasta topic sooner or later. Which is funny.

I played Solasta all the way through in the end, it was ok but had nothing I wanted in a 2021 roleplaying game and certainly nothing that would compel me to post endlessly about for months on a message board, but that's part of the joke.

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Pathfinder Kingmaker sold over a million copies and led to the development of a (now imminent) sequel that promises to be "bigger an better" in everything, despise being conceived as a low budget crowdfunded "BG2 spiritual successor" from an unknown Russian developer.
If anything it's the embodiment of a surprise success story.
Solasta has probably a fraction of the Kingmaker's budget.

BG1 and BG2 themselves were ANYTHING BUT an attempt to appeal to "niche audiences" for their time. In fact they were both massive success stories and are often pointed as arguably THE games that introduced high budget and production value in a "genre for nerds" and made it shiny.
Well, outside of the Ultima series, which had the "minor" inconvenient of being basically dead by then, coming from some of its worst chapters and having a history of hefty hardware requirements that made it just for enthusiasts.

If we put aside having a FAR bigger budget, which automatically puts it on a league of its own, there's nothing BG3 is doing over Kingmaker or Wrath fo the Righeous that can be argued to be more or less suited for a "mainstream appeal" from a design standpoint.
And most of the recurring talking points on this forum about the issues BG3 should address have hardly anything to do with its appeal (or lack of it) for a "causal audience". In fact they tend to be the sort of minute details, so to speak, that a causal audience will hardly even hear about or even notice, until pointed to them.
Does anyone SERIOUSLY think that if Larian introduced a control scheme that doesn't kill small lab animals at every use or addressed some of the "quirky" oddities in their implementation of D&D rules, the casual audience would be disappointed and leave?
Like, REALLY? Can anyone argue it with a straight face and making a coherent point?

Trying to leverage the lame "ad populum" appeal with "But if they change things they lose the big market" strikes me as fairly disingenuous, at best.


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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
META: if you're going to prohibit all mention of Solasta, just be upfront about it. Hinting that further mention of it will bring down the moderator hammer just muddies the water. It's true that people can get a little heated when discussing other games but it's not as if discussing Solasta as it compares to BG3 is inherently bad.

Not sure what "meta" means in this context, but nah, if I was going to prohibit it I would've said so. It's not quite at the RTwP, no TB, no, your mum level yet.

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
i think people are just joking that due to the preferences of vocal posters every topic becomes a Solasta topic sooner or later. Which is funny.

Yeah, that, pretty much. Not even 100% sure if I was joking when I said maybe it should have its own subforum!


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