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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Forced impregnation
Either i missed something ...
Or this is the most collorfull description of inserting tadpole i ever seen. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Ixal
The point is probably more that you are never really thinking about those things. They are presented for a shock effect and then they are gone and never mentioned again.

To be fair, the sex only happens once in the game so far, as well. :P

Not everything on that list is a one-time occurrence, though. Well - Abdirak is definitely just there for kinky shock value.
But the Tiefling refugees are pretty traumatised about their experiences, and you hear several different NPCs' perspectives. So you do pause to think about their stories as they're presented several times.
Racism is mentioned or implied in various conversations, especially if you are a Drow or a Tiefling.
Astarion's 200 years of slavery have clearly left their mark on him - figuratively and literally.
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again. In fact several NPCs mention this, so we aren't seeing the last of many of them.
I'm sure the more the game keeps going, the more messed up and dramatic the issues and resulting choices will become.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Forced impregnation
Either i missed something ...
Or this is the most collorfull description of inserting tadpole i ever seen. laugh

I was thinking in terms of Ridley Scotts Alien.

A lot has been written about the symbolism behind things like this.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvdn4d/alien-is-sci-fi-horrors-most-feminist-movie-franchise

https://screenrant.com/alien-movie-chestburster-sexual-assault-meaning/


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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
My hopes:
Game gets 2 more years of dev. For more playablr NPCs and content.
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Revamped controls and UI.
Improved controls and UI, that's the content adults are looking for ;-)

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On Adult themes, not talking about NSFW stuff, we have elements of the fear of the loss of self, the question of the worth of power, the question of evil doing good and good doing evil, the worth of isolationism vs helping refugees, and even discussions of taboo topics like the worth of selling one's soul.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Grittier and darker, more adult game. Not just, heres <sex>now its adult. Adult THEMES and dialogues.
Like what?

Wracking my brain on this one as well.

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

...Off the top of my head. I just think we have become desensitized to what constitutes 'adult'.


It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that

"adult" = grim

however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :


Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.

Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 25/05/21 09:47 PM.

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Very funny, but actually right. It's a lot harder to write a more subtle story with adult themes that don't involve outright violence or an implied threat of violence, because they rely less on grimdark shock value and literally beating you over the head with the themes. Though there is also a point where shock value goes so far off the charts that it becomes comically edgy and juvenile too.

It's why I actually hold the opinion that Pathfinder: Kingmaker or WotR for instance are a lot more sophisticated and mature than the likes of DOS2 and the current state of BG3, even if the presentation doesn't seem like it on a skin deep analysis level because the Pathfinder games don't twist themselves into pretzels waxing as much philosophy as, say, Pillars of Eternity. Those worlds are very convincing and most importantly don't focus entirely on the main characters, which is a much harder thing to pull off.

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Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that "adult" = grim, however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :

Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.
This is a list of things adults (but also kids for some of them) encounter/have to deal with, but that doesn't make them "adult themes."

"Themes" refers to a subject explored, which means it has to do more than just happen once. It should be an integral part of the story, or at the very least discussed by the characters for the reader/viewer to consider, and usually comes with an intended message. And the "adult" part of "adult themes" more refers to material that we don't want to expose children to, rather than just things kids have less experience of. Chronic illness, racism/sexism/ableism, violence (more than just random violence; e.g., exploring what motivates people to violence or the effects it has on victims), poverty, death of close family. These are adult themes.

Taxes, repairing holes in clothes, washing dishes, hosting birthday parties, and getting insects out of the household aren't adult themes by themselves. They'd need to be a larger part of, for example, a family's poverty and showing how the parents struggle to provide for their kids in a cruel, unjust world.

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Well... we already are surrounded by THOSE adult themes. Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while. Also, Dragon Age series did an excellent job of exploring politics, religion, and so forth. However, it was a very different game than BG3.

Back to BG3, if you want to analyse it further, Mayrina's story is probably the best example of an "adult theme". The poor woman loved her husband so much, she couldn't bear to lose him, and lost her mind instead - she was willing to sacrifice her unborn child to resurrect her husband. And there was no way to do that, of course, so she ended up with a zombie husband following her to Baldur's Gate. Dark fantasy, yes - symbolic representation of grief and depression, maybe. But after trying this quest every which way and realising there was no good way of resolving it for her, as a mother I had mental images of this zombie husband and a tiny newborn baby and it just disturbed the heck out of me.
Also, Astarion's reaction didn't help!!! (I chose it for his approval anyway, because at that point there is nothing you can do, so you either cry or you laugh, and maybe he's got a good point after all.)

Last edited by Alexandrite; 25/05/21 10:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

Uh oh, I think we've found someone who thinks escapism is a dirty word. I'd call down the wrath of J.R.R. Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories, except I'd rather go have fun playing a video game than deal with this real life crap... grin

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Escapism and Discussion of Real World Issues are both good things and do not have to be mutually exclusive, cause escapism depends on the viewers ability to essentially be sucked into that world and not think directly of the real world.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

huh, I think it's totally normal and healthy smile

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

Uh oh, I think we've found someone who thinks escapism is a dirty word. I'd call down the wrath of J.R.R. Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories, except I'd rather go have fun playing a video game than deal with this real life crap... grin

Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.

huh, I think it's totally normal and healthy smile

Yes. Thank you both. Wanting a break from IRL is not bad in any way, and it does not mean by default that something is wrong with a individual in any way. Having your brain work with creative stories, fantasies and imagination is a clear sign of a healthy and functional brain - a concept that far and widely spread among most psychological institutes. Unfortunately, many adults lose their creativity and imagination as they grow older due to focusing too much on the "adult stuff" in real life, and that is... Unfortunate. :[ Many great authors and scientists, encourage adults to continue to stimulate their childish side (don't stigmatize the word <3) by engaging in curiosity, imagination, creativity and fantasy.

And this is EXACTLY what games like BG3 does and that is EXACTLY why games like BG3 are awesome. laugh

Either way, I believe both Larian and I would like to leave as much of the irl discussion back as possible - so addressing the other part of the conversation:


Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that "adult" = grim, however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :

Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.
This is a list of things adults (but also kids for some of them) encounter/have to deal with, but that doesn't make them "adult themes."

I disagree about "nobody wanting to hear all that" - these kind of themes are seen time and time again in modern movies, novels and series.

And while I most certainly get your perspective when you say that these are more "adult themes" than just sex and violence - I think that is a matter of not agreeing on what "adult theme" is about. "Adult theme" does not mean that it is necessary stuff that interest or relate more to adults than teens or children - BUT, it is stuff that might not be appropriate for children and teens according to our current standards. Sexual content might be less interesting for a mature adult, but according to the standards of many countries - sexual content in movies and games is simply inappropriate for children, regardless of how interested and/or curious they are about it. And as such, it is labeled as "adult content" as society has decided that they are the only audience that can handle violence and sexual content and process it in a "good" way.

The stuff that you talked about is often mentioned, but in more creative ways, in children and teen content as well - sometimes to a rather large extent.

Anyhow - while I think that many of these things can be (and in many cases are) implemented in games, both for adults, teens and children, but in appropriate levels for a fantasy setting. The hints and struggles of an adult is there (I could list them both in BG3 and from other famous movies, literature and games, but that would be rather time consuming and pointless >.< ), but in small levels so one can focus on the entire fantasy part of the story (heroes and villains, exciting battles and, of course, the story itself).

I mean, all big masterpieces - both in movies, games and literature, contains these elements to some extent since it makes the entire story more relatable and believable. But, often (in fantasy, horror and action etc settings) on appropriate levels to stay on the main topic of the story.

Last edited by Dez; 26/05/21 04:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
It is a very widespread common - and very dumb - misconception to believe that

"adult" = grim

however, this is not so.

"Adult" means for me, a 50 years old man, this :


Bureaucracy (like paying taxes)
Chronic illnessess
Being a disabled person myself ("Well, that is why I don't have a hand anymore.")
Myasthenia
Lookism ("Uh, that one is looking so ugly, I won't give him the job !")
Birthday parties ("Which of our friends are we going to invite so nobody feels like being neglected ?"
- "So, our kid wants to throw a party. How many children can we endure ?"
- So, our teenager had been throwing a party while we were visiting Aunt Whatshername - and now we have destroyed furniture, painted walls, the bad smell of far too much alcohol, a teenager in a police cell, and I think something was stolen too. And who put the hamster into the microwave oven ? Thank god nobody turned that thing on !")
Avoiding bullies (for example in the tram) and extremists
Violence in general (hooligans, criminals)
Washing dirty clothes (yes, that is something that needs to be done as well !)
Washing the disjes (dito)
Cleaning the remants of the digesting of the household animals' food ("The dog must go out. Who of us does it ?")
Politics (or discussing it)
Ethics
Raising children ("... needs new t-shirts again !" - "Ask grandma if she can knit a few more socks because that winter is going to be COLD !"))
Keeping children away from dangers
Car accidents
Prices for car repairs and of course for gas, too !
Securing the house in defense against burglars
Trying not to get things stolen
Household accidents (the grandmother of a co-worker died a few months ago from falling down on dark cellar stairs after fetching beverage)
Spirituality (yes, nobody wants that, but for some people, it's important, and for some people, it even contains actually *more* athan going to church)
The question whether the money will be enough to feed everyone & pay the bills
Prices going up ("Oh no ! The rent has become even more expensive ! From what are we supposed to live now ?")
Working times ("And who looks after the children ?")
Illnesses of the own children
Preventive medical checkup
Where is the neares public toilet ? ("I'm on the motorhighway now, my stomach rumbles violently, perhaps I must vomit, and nowhere there is a toilet to be seen ...")
Bad meals and good meals in the firm's cantina
Bad smells (farts)
Bad smells (far too much perfume or hair treatment spray)
Intrigue at work
Bullying (co-workers, or sometimes it's even the boss)
Repairing holes in clothes
Getting insects out of the household (like ants)
Trying not to get parasits from going out for a walk into nature (like ticks, for example)

Nobody wants to hear that, but these are actually "adult" themes. Like bureaucracy, for example, Nobody likes that. Nobody likes calculating taxes. It's an un pleasant work teenagers normally never have contact with.
Or, raising teenagers in general. Lots of drama.
Or bullying. Parents have to fdeal with their children being bullied as well. And with other parents denying that *their* children were bullying others.


I try to practice Gratitude every single day. Today I am grateful that you are not involved with writing this game. wink

And listen, I am not saying those are not adult themes - but usually when we refer to adult themes we would consider it something that should be supplemented by a mature adult if a child was exposed to it. There are some examples on your list that qualify and a lot that really don't. For exampled: on my list Slavery and Racism should be supplemented with discussion, however (checks your list) - "Bad smells (Farts)" doesn't really require any supplementation. Although if that is something you are having trouble with you may want to consider the children's book "Everybody Poops" by Tarō Gomi. I've heard great things.

Ok, good luck and happy reading!


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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

Well RAW. Her husband going from dead to Zombie (Undead) just made things 50x worse. See before she would have been looking at a Raise Dead spell - about 500g - likely out of her price range unless she can somehow scrape together that huge sum of money but theoretically possible.

Now that her Husband is Undead she would need at minimum a True Resurrection Spell, Cost? 25,000 gold. She could take her chances with a Reincarnation spell for 1,000 Gold if he has only been dead less than 10 days, but she risks getting a totally random race.

Just fyi, Revivify is only supposed to work if used within a minute of death.

No, Mayrina is screwed. She would have been better just taking him in the wheelbarrow and getting a low level necromancer to cast Gentle Repose for a couple copper pieces.

Mayrina is the worst. She reminds me of the main character, Dorothy, in the show Servant. Her flaw is in her inability to say goodbye. She already got two other people killed and she nearly ended up creating another Green Hag with her behavior.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
There is no way to have a happy ending for Mayrina's story, and she implies she is going to Baldur's Gate so you may encounter her there again.

Oh I don't know... Still alive, still safely carrying her child, and on her way to Bg (with her safely ambulatory zombified husband), where she might find someone who can raise said zombified husband properly provided she can scrape together the means to pay for it or work out an agreement... and if you clear out the swamp first, but don't talk to the witch or enter her house, and only then go back and do the road-side encounter, and side with the idiot brothers, they survive as well... I'd count that as a 'positive as you can hope for' outcome for now...

Well RAW. Her husband going from dead to Zombie (Undead) just made things 50x worse. See before she would have been looking at a Raise Dead spell - about 500g - likely out of her price range unless she can somehow scrape together that huge sum of money but theoretically possible.

Now that her Husband is Undead she would need at minimum a True Resurrection Spell, Cost? 25,000 gold. She could take her chances with a Reincarnation spell for 1,000 Gold if he has only been dead less than 10 days, but she risks getting a totally random race.

Just fyi, Revivify is only supposed to work if used within a minute of death.

No, Mayrina is screwed. She would have been better just taking him in the wheelbarrow and getting a low level necromancer to cast Gentle Repose for a couple copper pieces.

Mayrina is the worst. She reminds me of the main character, Dorothy, in the show Servant. Her flaw is in her inability to say goodbye. She already got two other people killed and she nearly ended up creating another Green Hag with her behavior.

I would say her flaw was the willingness to give up her infant to a hag. Would be hilarious if we found her as a street wench in BG with her zombie husband has her bodyguard. Or maybe they can raise gold for the scrolls by having people pay 1g to throw a rock at him.

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Once you re-kill the zombie, it's not a zombie any more - it's just a corpse again, and if she's lucky a corpse that has only been dead within one of the shorter time brackets. You couldn't raise him from his zombie state, but you could put him down, and then raise him, provided the body was intact enough.

You're right, of course, that sourcing some gentle repose would have been a FAR better option... she's going to be looking at at least the 1 year time scale by this point, even at best, I'd wager.

(I agree, she's not a favourable character... just not entirely hopeless yet, if you wrangle it right, I feel.)

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Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Personally, I play games to get away from those things for a little while.

That's really sad.
Dude, you are saying that is sad, all the while you being a self admitted D&D player/DM that is a game based in pure fantasy. One should not cast stones in a glass house.

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