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Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.

Last edited by DragonSnooz; 30/05/21 07:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dont see much difference in between "waiting for E3 to present there" and "waiting for E3 to start my own presentation" since its all just matter of different adress in browser for us. laugh

Considering the state of E3 last year, and it being just web broadcast this year, why would ANY studio waste their time with it? They are better off marketing their own products. I am really curious to see what the actual participation numbers of this years E3 are going to be. Honestly, I think it is going to tank. Part of its draw was the "convention" setting, that is why developers paid so much to be a part of it. For the energy that drove word of mouth. I mean do you remember the old days when it was huge and stations like techTV had Olivia Munn broadcasting it? Now, at least for the last 2-3 years it has been just meh.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Considering the state of E3 last year, and it being just web broadcast this year, why would ANY studio waste their time with it? They are better off marketing their own products. I am really curious to see what the actual participation numbers of this years E3 are going to be. Honestly, I think it is going to tank. Part of its draw was the "convention" setting, that is why developers paid so much to be a part of it. For the energy that drove word of mouth. I mean do you remember the old days when it was huge and stations like techTV had Olivia Munn broadcasting it? Now, at least for the last 2-3 years it has been just meh.

Realistically, it's going to see bigger numbers this year because people really didn't like the slow drip nature of the announcements spread out across all of last Summer.

Not to mention there's a lot of stuff that has leaked out since that people are excited to see, like Dragon's Dogma 2, our first actual look at FFXVI, and a rumored unannounced higher budget FF spinoff game based on FFI. There's a lot more going on than just cRPGs.

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What if we try a different approach? Larian, don't you dare release something this week!

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
What if we try a different approach? Larian, don't you dare release something this week!

Reverse psychology? Let's give it a whirl...

Yeah Larian, I've still got DA:Inquisition to finish before Patch 5... yep I never finished the original game 7 years ago... don't you derail me now and lure me back into BG3 with your siren song! :P

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Yeah Larian, I've still got DA:Inquisition to finish before Patch 5... yep I never finished the original game 7 years ago...

Wow. And Corypheus hasn't managed to take over the world yet? He really is a pathetic villain.

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Well I've been playing EDF 5 with a little BG3 on the side, so I'm in no hurry. Please Larian, no updates for a while wink

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid.

This is right, but there is a reason why the term "vocal minority" in gaming exists. Some people just behave the elitist way, and try to badmouth or silence to death the opinions of others who are not pert of "their" niche.

What I mean is this . If everyone would behave in a civil way, then things would be better.
But some try to dominate.

Some of the worse examples for that are so-called "closed circle discussions", which feel like "forums PvP". In these discussion, it is no more important to exchange opinions. No, in these discussions the only "goal" the participants have is, to dominate everyone else by pushing the own opinion through. This can result (and often does) in a discussion between two or three, maybe four elitists, who are forcefully ignoring everyone else who posts something in that discussion.
You can very clearly see that it is a "closed circle discussion" by these few participants only quoting thmselves; and never ever someone from the outside, never ever someone whom they believe not to be "part of the discussion", read : Part of the closed circle.

Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 31/05/21 03:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.
Generally speaking, I'm also not sure why there's this ongoing assumption/narrative that history is decided by the silent majority.
That has never been the case. History has always been driven by organized minorities who put their effort in leading around inert masses where they wanted them.
The silent majorities are often silent because they don't have very much to say to begin with. That, and/or they just don't care. Which doesn't change much in practical terms.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Right now it still feels like a fun forgettable ride. Of course a lot can change with a patch or two.

As I look at the mega-threads most complaints seem like logical ideas that casual gamers would enjoy too. Improved party controls & UI with asking for less superfluous advantage/disadvantage from verticality/backstab.

Would casual gamers have a preference between RTwP or Turn-based? No.
Would casual gamers have a preference between a party of four versus six? No.

Even if a situation has a vocal minority, it should still be considered if their opinions are valid. Most consumers don't give feedback to the point where 3% responding to a survey is considered a win.

As as others have said casual gamers usually care about the glitz and the glam, which Baldur's Gate 3 has already done well with. So far Baldur's Gate 3 has mass-appeal with little to entice long-term fans of RPGs. I don't think it's too much to ask Larian to change a few things to keep long-term RPG fans happy.
Generally speaking, I'm also not sure why there's this ongoing assumption/narrative that history is decided by the silent majority.
That has never been the case. History has always been driven by organized minorities who put their effort in leading around inert masses where they wanted them.
The silent majorities are often silent because they don't have very much to say to begin with. That, and/or they just don't care. Which doesn't change much in practical terms.

Though there is to some extent a... Let's call it "Negativity bias" for a lack of a better term, I'm sure there is one. In online forums, people tend to be more driven towards voicing their opinions if it's of a "negative" nature- Actually let's call it criticism, that's often what the intent is. I don't actually want to throw shade on any group of people here, rather share an experience.

It's more likely for someone to find the motivation and interest in navigating to an online forum, register, and make a thread because of having something in the nature of criticism or wish for change, than to go and say "Hey I had fun, this is great." without seeking to influence anything. This also drives people to reply where someone seems to share their opinion, or to try and 'enlighten' anyone who disagrees. It's also perfectly human to be defensive about one's opinions, and sometimes fall victim to perceiving an opposing voice as an attack or dismissal, and some people indeed quite literally do this, in either direction.

The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.

I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters; Making the developer want to read, instead of dismiss it as "angry irrational people". For example a long while back, before EA launched, I wrote to Larian about the narration perspective, that a 2nd person past-tense could potentially be damaging to the feeling of player agency. I wrote something along the lines of, albeit very simplified and shortened, "Hey, if the narrator speaks about something that is currently happening, as something of the past, then as a player it may feel like the story is already set in stone, you're just viewing it through the lens of a history book, you're not actually choosing what you do in the moment. So I believe it should be narrated in 2nd person present-tense, so that the player has a stronger sense of driving the story and making the choices as they go themselves." - No squabble, no frustrated rants about how they're bad developers or ruin D&D or how everyone that disagrees with me is ignorant, or get stuck on calling them out for ad hominems, strawmans, or any other non-sense. Just keeping the eye on the ball, and presenting a rational argument.

Now I'm doubtful that my particular message was in any means impactful or the straw that broke the camel's back, I'd be surprised if not many people shared the same "awkward feeling" towards how the earlier form of narration was, but I believe level-headed discussion that focuses on the merit of the criticism, rather than other participants of the debate, goes a long way. In fact, I believe that undermines the criticism more than anything, and I dare say most people share their criticism because they hope to see it make a difference. That's what I'm trying to say I suppose, that I want criticism and calls for action to actually inspire action, rather than to undermine itself by falling victim to typical weaknesses of the human psyche.

Also, I'll suspend myself for making who ever makes it this far suffer with a TL;DR wall of stuff that probably could be about nine paragraphs shorter - Though I'll excuse myself with a 5 day tenure of insufferable heat and no wind. Please send help.

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I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.


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Originally Posted by Abits
I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.

I don't think thats what The Composer meant. I think what they meant is that Larian might be simply more likely to listen to well reasoned feedback that does not in the same sentence insult them, because the are.. well.. humans.

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Originally Posted by Abits
I think there is plenty of thoughtful topics here, with great arguments and well established reasoning. The idea that Larian isn't willing to listen to feedback because people on the internet could be unpleasant sometimes is kind of absurd to me. Larian are the strong, influential party here, they can do what they want. They could respond and explain themselves or they can completely ignore us and do what they want. The idea that they can't handle criticism because nameless people on the internet are mean to them is a bit ridiculous.

Forum moderation is a thing. It's not like they have to go in unshielded to the dregs of the forums (and frankly this place is basically a convent in terms of game forums). The argument of "mean people on the forums drive the company away" doesn't hold water at all especially when they own/control the forums and frankly is often used as a dishonest blame shift (see the recent Paradox shenanigans).

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I know what they meant. And I stand by what I said. Removing all the responsibility from Larian and blaming everything on the community, as if the reason Larian is silent and not willing to make changes is because of the community means removing any accountability from Larian. And Larian has some accountability.


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People tend to be more vocal about things they are unsatisfied about than the ones they are happy about (and when it comes to things they are indifferent about it's not even a contest, really). That's true basically in any context.
And I'd argue there's also plenty of good reasons for it. Screaming your happiness at the top of your lungs is not exactly going to do you any favor, while asking for "problems to be fixed" has a clear self-serving purpose.

About the tone... Well, I'm not the biggest fan of tone policing in general as far as certain lines aren't crossed, but I'd like to point that there's a reason if the overall mood was WAY more cheerful in the first weeks of this EA and some users (myself included) drifted more and more on the surface of dark, never ending sea of bitterness as time went on.
Larian simply didn't live up to its promise to keep in contact with the community and have a two-ways communication with the user base.

For the most part, we started pointing flaws and "asking nicely" if something could be done about them, then we watched with a certain amount of perplexity the studio completely overlooking every point made by the community for the nine successive months.
They never even acknowledged several of the major, recurring points of criticism, let alone bothering arguing in favor of their choices and why they were even made in the first place.
What we got is a bunch of "Oh oh oh, you guys surely love to get laid and pet the dog. Also, eating mushrooms now is a free action and here's some loaded dices".

it's hilarious to me that we have even part of the user base being pesky because "People always complain about the same things".
Yeah, I mean, these "same things" are all still true nine months later, aren't they? And they didn't stop being bad just because at some point discouragement will prevail and we will eventually grow tired of talking about them.

Last edited by Tuco; 31/05/21 06:35 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by The Composer
...This also drives people to reply where someone seems to share their opinion, or to try and 'enlighten' anyone who disagrees. It's also perfectly human to be defensive about one's opinions, and sometimes fall victim to perceiving an opposing voice as an attack or dismissal, and some people indeed quite literally do this, in either direction.

The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.

I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters; Making the developer want to read, instead of dismiss it as "angry irrational people". ...
I feel like this take is de-emphasizing something critical: forum discussion and arguments about ideas can change minds, help generate new ideas, and/or tangent into related but also important topics. Challenging ideas (through negativity/critique) can be very useful for figuring out what's important and refining our own ideas. At the very least, forum arguments will give Larian a broad view of many reasons for/against certain mechanics.

On this forum, we are (ideally) both trying to provide feedback to Larian but also trying to convince others of our viewpoints. Why? Because then our viewpoints will have more support=more forum posts agreeing with said idea=more likely for Larian to make changes. Personally, I've had my mind changed on a few topics through discussions/arguments, or at the very least was able to see something in a different light.

Negativity by itself isn't bad, as critique of things is the ~only way they improve. The problem is when that negativity is unconstructive or it's directed toward other posters instead of the game.

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Sigi is quite right. No one is driven away. It's merely a comment of my observations on what I believe makes online communications more likely to reach the ears that we hope hears it. I'm on your team, or try to be, in that I just want people to be heard, and not undermined by what I call "noise". A thread that frequently requires moderation, is generally less likely to be heard because of the noise drowning out what is often good tidbits of thought underneath. Reducing the noise is a win for everyone smile I've been rather involved with collecting and assimilating feedback myself, and through that I have no concern that feedback isn't being listened to. Whether or not the hundreds of pages inspires design decisions on its respective fronts is another matter at the design team's discretion. Personally I'll take my wins on what ever does influence design decisions, and trust that smarter people than me have had better reasons against it for the things that didn't make the whiteboard. No game is 100% perfect on all the things I*d want anyway, and that is likely true for most people. Anyway...

It'd be cool with more frequent communication of some form, I loved Bungie back in the day during Halo 2/3 era when they posted things. Wasn't anything specific necessarily, but was fun reads to make the torturous wait of anticipation and excitement just a little less... Slow. But there are many reasons that I understand why you wouldn't want to go into specifics, too. I am looking forward to what ever the next community update holds though.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Negativity by itself isn't bad, as critique of things is the ~only way they improve. The problem is when that negativity is unconstructive or it's directed toward other posters instead of the game.

Exactly ^^ The word 'negativity' is always a difficult one to me. But you're exactly right, and it's basically what I mean. Noise is bleh, challenging and interesting discussion is fantastic.

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"It's merely a comment of my observations on what I believe makes online communications more likely to reach the ears that we hope hears it."

My experience with forum feedback in the other EA I'm participating in (Bannerlord) says the opposite, honestly. We only get responses and changes from Taleworlds when the frustration reaches a critical level. Otherwise they just kinda chug along doing whatever it is they're trying to do with Bannerlord and ignore the forum userbase completely, just like Larian is. We spent months being super polite and deferential with our feedback and to be frank, it didn't work. It was only when a large number of us started descending into bitterness and snark that we were finally able to get their attention and acknowledgement of our issues with the game, even though usually the answer is "this doesn't fit our vision for the game so we're rejecting it". That's a hell of a lot better than radio silence.

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