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Originally Posted by The Composer
Also, I'll suspend myself for making who ever makes it this far suffer with a TL;DR wall of stuff that probably could be about nine paragraphs shorter - Though I'll excuse myself with a 5 day tenure of insufferable heat and no wind. Please send help.

I could send booze, which I'm sure would help. Because I'm sensible like that. Why, yes, I am that person who forgot to drink anything but coffee and spent most of the past fortnight with a dehydration-induced migraine, why do you ask?


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There are other drinks than coffee?

Whoa.

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Not to be (always) the party pooper but I want to oppose the ongoing agreement that even just a couple of teases on twitter and some generic "We are working really hard on cool things" would be enough.
Frankly that wouldn't be particularly different from what we are getting now. And having frequent and regular but ultimately hollow statements from the studio wouldn't really be a meaningful improvement.

What I'd like to see is clear statements about their short, mid and long terms goals. Nothing too detailed, frankly. I wouldn't be asking for minute weekly reports on every single bugfix or anything of that sort.
Frankly even an update every three months (or more) would be perfectly fine as long as we can have a honest insight on what's being worked on, as far as I'm concerned.

It's more a matter of addressing broad topics in less ambiguous terms.
Examples could be:

- "There is a general agreement that controls in the game are fairly bad [and no, it's not just my personal bias, there's almost universal agreement wherever the topic comes up. Even and maybe ESPECIALLY out of this forum]. This is how we see the current state, this is what we are going to do, this is what we are NOT going to do, these are possible tentative fixes" etc.
- "People have strong opinions about these mechanical changes made to the combat. Here's where the problem lies, how we at Larian perceive the current situation, and what we will attempt to solve the matter or what we are definitely NOT going to do".
- "These specific things people are complaining about are just placeholders. Don't worry about them".
- Given that even among "causals" way more people seem to be in favor of a 6-slot party than the ones that are against it, what's the ACTUAL rationale behind the complete refuse to give the option a try for official support rather than "leaving it to modders"? A honest insight on what are the perceived challenges here could help to understand what's the obstacle to solve and what compromises can be made.

On a more generic, less "problem-solving" oriented note, examples of meaningful pointers of what's coming could be "The next update will focus on improving performances and/or introducing new content and/or changing core mechanics and/or speeding up and improving the AI and/or improving the UI in the sequent number of ways".
Also, are new races and classes coming any time soon? Are they still coming ONE at the time? IF they are coming, great, if not that's fine but it wouldn't hurt to know in advance and set expectations accordingly.

What about the level cap? Is it set in stone that it will remain at 4 as long as we will be in EA or is the 5th level and the deluge of new spells/mechanics it would introduce for testing purpose something that is being considered for future updates?

I could go on for a while, but I think I more or less made my point.
We aren't really asking to rob the developers of their working time to indulge in our constant thirst for attention, but I think there's a reasonable middle ground here that could be reached in terms of transparency.

Last edited by Tuco; 01/06/21 11:26 AM.

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3 weeks since they said community update. What kind of organization does this? 100 days since Patch 4 the next milestone.

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A Reddit AMA or a thread on this forum where they answered questions would be great. smile

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I know Larian enjoys talking about the stuff they are working on. These are people that love what they do and they are not shy about it. So I have been curious about the unusually long silence.

I am not too worried as I am sure they are burning the days and nights doing some amazing world-building but I do get excited when they have big reveals. I think there are a lot of good people here who are equally passionate about the work they do. Many of us realize this is an incredibly ambitious work - in fact - THE most ambitious project they have ever undertaken.

And this is just my opinion - based on the 800+ hours I have played, based on the all the great people I have met and hung out with in multiplayer, based on all the late night sessions when we have been laughing so hard in discord that we were tearing up, based on how much joy that this game has given me even in single player exploring different roles and endings and finding new things -and that is I think this is going to be the Game of the Decade when it is finished.

I would strongly encourage them to invest in a development diary of some sort that gets regular updates. That way we can also enjoy the journey to the finished product including the challenges and the triumphs together.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be (always) the party pooper but I want to oppose the ongoing agreement that even just a couple of teases on twitter and some generic "We are working really hard on cool things" would be enough.
Frankly that wouldn't be particularly different from what we are getting now. And having frequent and regular but ultimately hollow statements from the studio wouldn't really be a meaningful improvement.

What I'd like to see is clear statements about their short, mid and long terms goals. Nothing too detailed, frankly. I wouldn't be asking for minute weekly reports on every single bugfix or anything of that sort.
Frankly even an update every three months (or more) would be perfectly fine as long as we can have a honest insight on what's being worked on, as far as I'm concerned.
This. As far as I see it, the biggest problem I see with the way Larian studios conduct themselves is the very long silence. Look at this topic for instance. If you go to page 2 you will see a comment I made in November (!) where I was fairly optimistic and outright antagonistic towards the guy who opened this topic for being impatient. fast forward six months and his impatience don't seem so exaggerated anymore. Even if I would say Larian did occasionally communicated, they did it in a very unhelpful way, and honestly, it is somewhat even more upsetting that you wait a few months for a big list of statistic anecdotes that tell you nothing about the development process.

If Larian will reveal some of their roadmap maybe some people will lose interest when they'll discover some of their desired changes ain't gonna happen. But if they'll keep doing what they're doing, eventually people will grow bitter and annoyed. And this goes back to my previous comment to the Composer. If you treat your community like that, don't be surprised when people start to be upset and unpleasant.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
If Larian really got themselves in such a restrictive set of NDA's that they can't communicate with the userbase with any semblance of regularity *during an Early Access game development*, then I seriously question the competence of their legal team and their management.

They could probably answer a lot of questions but there's a lot of things we can imagine they don't want to / can talk about.

- when a specific class will be released
- how specific spells will be implemented
- how many companions or races will there be in the end
- which mechanic they plan to rework
-...

The game is still in developpment. COVID don't help and they probably have a lot of things to discuss / adjust / rework / ...
They probably also have more money than intended so maybe they have to discuss about new features and so on.

Keep in mind that the game is probably in early access for them too.

I was speaking strictly to the idea that "NDA could be why they're barely communicating", saying that if that's the case then their legal team apparently sucks to get them under such a restrictive NDA while making an Early Access game (a process that relies on communication with the community)

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Originally Posted by Abits
If Larian will reveal some of their roadmap maybe some people will lose interest when they'll discover some of their desired changes ain't gonna happen. But if they'll keep doing what they're doing, eventually people will grow bitter and annoyed. And this goes back to my previous comment to the Composer. If you treat your community like that, don't be surprised when people start to be upset and unpleasant.
Like I said on a previous page, had I known how poorly they would be communicating and handling this EA, I would never have paid in for it. There's been nothing tangible to make me come back since the initial release.

Compare this to OwlCats with WotR and the progress they've made with alpha testing. I wouldn't even need to see a single statement from that company because they actually release new content for testing in the form of dialogue, classes, mythic paths, chapters, etc.

The difference in funding and studio size is crazy too. Larian drew me in with Divinity and lost me with BG3.

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I'm not in favour of these comparisons for the same reasons I explained Ragnarok. All I know for certain is that almost complete silence between patches, with no substantial information even during community updates is unacceptable.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Ah, I think I understand Larian's problem now. They killed their off their previous community manager....




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I'm also quite against the "only release Act 1" version of EA Larian has going since that leaves you with zero feedback or community testing of the rest of the game. But that's probably an even more impossible ship to turn around than the communication thing.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Though there is to some extent a... Let's call it "Negativity bias" for a lack of a better term, I'm sure there is one. In online forums, people tend to be more driven towards voicing their opinions if it's of a "negative" nature- Actually let's call it criticism, that's often what the intent is. I don't actually want to throw shade on any group of people here, rather share an experience.

It's more likely for someone to find the motivation and interest in navigating to an online forum... The point I'm ultimately trying to make is, online forums has the odds stacked against it of often being dominated by variants of criticism or "negativity", often because it's the most passionate fans that in their own way just want something they love to be even more loveable, somewhere deep down, even though others may perceive them as haters.
From personal experience with customer and inter-office responses there definitely is a negative spin to most responses. Response bias is mostly impossible to avoid, unless there are metrics available that are free of bias. It happens in online forums and a lot of other spaces, the main difference for online forums is that we are all veiled behind our profile pictures and usernames.
(There is a lean towards distrust, even when forum members agree. Just as how drivers want to immediately assume the other drivers are the issue, because all they see is a car, not the human being. It's hard for users to read this in my voice or to humanize my posts.)

Originally Posted by The Composer
I want to focus on Larian forums specifically, to "win an argument" here, in the only way that matters in the end of the day imo, is to influence the developers. Most people get stuck in interpersonal squabble instead of focusing on what matters...
So I believe it should be narrated in 2nd person present-tense, so that the player has a stronger sense of driving the story and making the choices as they go themselves." - No squabble, no frustrated rants about how they're bad developers or ruin D&D or how everyone that disagrees with me is ignorant, or get stuck on calling them out for ad hominems, strawmans, or any other non-sense. Just keeping the eye on the ball, and presenting a rational argument.
I will try but writing in the second person has never been my strength xD
I'd like to think I've avoided ad hominems or strawmen for the most part. But that can get challenging if there ever is a prolonged back-and-forth.
As you write in the next quote, it's easiest if the discussion stays focused on the topic or the critique itself.

Originally Posted by The Composer
Now I'm doubtful that my particular message was in any means impactful...
but I believe level-headed discussion that focuses on the merit of the criticism, rather than other participants of the debate, goes a long way. In fact, I believe that undermines the criticism more than anything, and I dare say most people share their criticism because they hope to see it make a difference. That's what I'm trying to say I suppose, that I want criticism and calls for action to actually inspire action, rather than to undermine itself by falling victim to typical weaknesses of the human psyche
It'd be great if discussions stayed on the discussion at hand.

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Right now Pathfinder: Wrath of the righteous has me more excited then anything BG3 related...Mythic paths, freeking mounts combat! Become an ANGEL and ride a VELOCIRAPTOR into combat. Game looking pretty tight too.
Tons of branching dialogue options...no stupid cinematic TELLTALE drama...Turn base OR real time with pause...day/night cycles...SUPERB UI...dozens and dozens of classes...variety of interesting playable NPC that FEEL AND LOOK LIKE FANTASY chatacters. And a strong and extremely detailed rule set to back everything up.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 02/06/21 12:15 PM.
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And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I agree completely irrelevant unless you want to talk about the way owlcat treat their community.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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They're pretty good at that.

There is a new survey that was just released about the EA phase 2.
There are a lot of communication even if it may sometimes only be a facebook post about "someone's youtube video about the game" or "someone's amazing artwork".
There are also regular new trailer, patches and hotfix and they are pretty active on their discord server.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 02/06/21 02:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?

the topic is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. In my opinion, comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant.

Last edited by Boblawblah; 02/06/21 02:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?

the "theme" is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. Comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant, wouldn't you say? wink smile

I think it's a bit generous to say that's what it was about. Although we're pretty relaxed about off-topic stuff, that was a pretty blatant attempt at derailing, so let's not, eh?


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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And what exactly does this ad for a completely different game have to do with the theme?
the "theme" is the lack of a patch or any sort of communication from Larian, the developers of this game. Comparing the situation to something similar (another similar game) where a developer IS communicating is quite relevant, wouldn't you say? wink smile
Dunno ...
Once you start to compare it with another game, where developer is comunicating even less, people start yelling here that is not relevant. laugh
I would dare to say it should work both ways. laugh

And i dont quite understand why it should be simmilar game ...
The comunication, or silence have just the same result for comunity of all games ... no matter if they are developing RPG, Flying simulator, or First Person Shooter. O_o


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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