Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I don't know if it really is such a big difference.
Theoretically, you can exchange runes for some other objects, then you would still teleport to them, but it would be treated as if you got there yourself.
Technically it doesn't really matter to the gameplay, but always more people satisfied

That's exactly my point. There is no mechanical difference. But it makes a huge difference to immersion.
The existence of waypoint runes brings up huge world questions: why are these runes here? Why can only we use them? etc?
If there is no mechanical difference between two options, the game should use the one that makes more sense for immersion/worldbuilding.

@Maximuuus: fast-traveling to locations (where you are in reality, walking there) would be a great and easy solution. We basically already do this, but with the added "magical PC-only runes" that don't make sense.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
I think there are two discussions going on and mixing in a confusing way:
- fast travel vs no fast travel
- waypoints are immersion-breaking and should be replaced by implied walking (as a fast travel flavour), which would mechanically be the same, but improve immersion and not make one question the game's worldbuilding

I believe the OP wanted to discuss the latter and few people are calling for removing fast travel altogether. Although I must agree with Tuco, especially on the "games should be designed as if there was no fast travel and then fast travel should be added on top of that system". That way playing with no fast travel is viable and one can judge whether he needs/wants the extra convenience.

On the "walking" front, +1 to what mrfuji3 wrote.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
From my perspective as a conceptual game designer of some vintage, it's been my observation that the more successful and larger a game design studio becomes, the more they tend to lean towards things designed towards "pleasing the masses", like teleportational travel options whenever you wish, which tend to break immersion/realism in an rpg.

In smaller studios, I think that the game designers are more prone to stick to the purer vision of their game. They are more inclined to take chances, to assume the person buying the game is smarter rather than dumber, that the buyer wants harder tactical/strategic options and is willing to think/be patient/and really use their heads to overcome obstacles. The richer a studio becomes, the more the game design final decisions fall those controlling the bottom line- often people with absolutely no idea at all about what game design is about.

The richer and larger the studio, the more lawyers and bean-counters the company has that they tend to listen to, which eventually waters down rpgs into mindless corridors with lots of carrots on sticks and not too much thinking. Bethesda's whole existence perfectly follow this path of "trying to please the common gamer", which results in pretty, but tawdry boring gameplay which is all icing and little real interesting exploration or feel of challenging, realistic roleplay. Daggerfall and Morrowwind were marvelous from the perspective of freedoms to do almost anything you could think of, and create most any sort of character you wanted, and it's been downhill with each prettier, newer incarnation of their Elder Scroll games. Their entries have become lovely shells which require simpering idiots to play and succeed in.

Only the more ancient of PC gamers probably remember Daggerfall. With it, Bethesda's young designers, less impeded by fiscal success, reached for the stars to try and bring a game that offered every possible rpg freedom to the player. They didn't just push the envelope of what they could try and bring to a computer game of that time, they knocked down doors that really have never been surpassed today in the depth and breadth of role playing opportunities. The game stretched the limits of the top computers of it's day, but more than that, it stretched the imagination of anyone who played it.

It's been redone in Unity, and with some lovely new mods by players, it remains quite playable all these years later and is quite worth playing, if you can handle the graphics and limitations of those days.

Larian's games, to me anyway, have offered much higher amounts of intellectual challenge than most any rpg in recent memory- so far. It would be good if their kept their eye on the ball though, because it's easy to get lost in a golden vision of profits by starting off down the boring highway of accommodating the least intellectually gifted gamer for the sake of an extra 60$ a pop.

In DOS II you could teleport from statue to statue at various points in the game, but no camp teleporting when you wanted to save your ass if you were deep in a lair. You needed to travel to the nearest statue, which added some feel of immersion that the landscape mattered.

What Larian (I hope) intends- and should do- is make BG III more D&D like and allow overnight camping "in place" in any relatively safe location, (away from immediate threats). This would be a third option, keeping short rests and the big camp as well, for crafting/cooking/character major interactions. Characters would need the classic tinderbox, bedrolls, firewood. An option to set a guard who does not rest would keep the camp from being surprised by a "chance encounter". These would vary according to where you camp. You might wake up to find gobbos in the goblin camp stealing wares, or, perhaps wake up with a dead party member stripped of goods in the morning if you didn't set a guard. In the Underdark, most anything might show up.

This would be much, much more immersive and fun than the whole teleporting back to camp for a full rest nonsense.

In my opinion, it's these seemingly minor dumbing down-issues aimed at selling extra copies of a game to very casual players that want simplicity and little thinking that leads to catastrophic decline in quality gaming companies. The lawyers and stock holders push for this sort of thing against the wishes of actual designers. It's up to us, the core players to push for a more realistic experience, when this sort of thing happens.

Also, as a rule, these tendencies to move towards less complex, and more generic game experiences are almost always a one way ride. Once a company starts down the path of simplifying and making things easier, there is seldom any return to deeper, richer game play.

Hopefully, Larian already realizes all this, and the in-place camping in the wilderness is simply not implemented yet.

Joined: Oct 2020
R
addict
Online Content
addict
R
Joined: Oct 2020
Wait a second. In DoS2 you could teleport from anywhere, you don't need to be near the statue.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
+1 for still having fast travel but it’s off-screen actual travel (walking, riding), not this teleportation nonsense that even Elminster would be in awe of



Feel free to steal my profile pic if you feel the same way. Let's show some solidarity.
Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Balls
From my perspective as a conceptual game designer of some vintage, it's been my observation that the more successful and larger a game design studio becomes, the more they tend to lean towards things designed towards "pleasing the masses", like teleportational travel options whenever you wish, which tend to break immersion/realism in an rpg.

In smaller studios, I think that the game designers are more prone to stick to the purer vision of their game. They are more inclined to take chances, to assume the person buying the game is smarter rather than dumber, that the buyer wants harder tactical/strategic options and is willing to think/be patient/and really use their heads to overcome obstacles. The richer a studio becomes, the more the game design final decisions fall those controlling the bottom line- often people with absolutely no idea at all about what game design is about.

The richer and larger the studio, the more lawyers and bean-counters the company has that they tend to listen to, which eventually waters down rpgs into mindless corridors with lots of carrots on sticks and not too much thinking. Bethesda's whole existence perfectly follow this path of "trying to please the common gamer", which results in pretty, but tawdry boring gameplay which is all icing and little real interesting exploration or feel of challenging, realistic roleplay. Daggerfall and Morrowwind were marvelous from the perspective of freedoms to do almost anything you could think of, and create most any sort of character you wanted, and it's been downhill with each prettier, newer incarnation of their Elder Scroll games. Their entries have become lovely shells which require simpering idiots to play and succeed in.

Only the more ancient of PC gamers probably remember Daggerfall. With it, Bethesda's young designers, less impeded by fiscal success, reached for the stars to try and bring a game that offered every possible rpg freedom to the player. They didn't just push the envelope of what they could try and bring to a computer game of that time, they knocked down doors that really have never been surpassed today in the depth and breadth of role playing opportunities. The game stretched the limits of the top computers of it's day, but more than that, it stretched the imagination of anyone who played it.

It's been redone in Unity, and with some lovely new mods by players, it remains quite playable all these years later and is quite worth playing, if you can handle the graphics and limitations of those days.

Larian's games, to me anyway, have offered much higher amounts of intellectual challenge than most any rpg in recent memory- so far. It would be good if their kept their eye on the ball though, because it's easy to get lost in a golden vision of profits by starting off down the boring highway of accommodating the least intellectually gifted gamer for the sake of an extra 60$ a pop.

In DOS II you could teleport from statue to statue at various points in the game, but no camp teleporting when you wanted to save your ass if you were deep in a lair. You needed to travel to the nearest statue, which added some feel of immersion that the landscape mattered.

What Larian (I hope) intends- and should do- is make BG III more D&D like and allow overnight camping "in place" in any relatively safe location, (away from immediate threats). This would be a third option, keeping short rests and the big camp as well, for crafting/cooking/character major interactions. Characters would need the classic tinderbox, bedrolls, firewood. An option to set a guard who does not rest would keep the camp from being surprised by a "chance encounter". These would vary according to where you camp. You might wake up to find gobbos in the goblin camp stealing wares, or, perhaps wake up with a dead party member stripped of goods in the morning if you didn't set a guard. In the Underdark, most anything might show up.

This would be much, much more immersive and fun than the whole teleporting back to camp for a full rest nonsense.

In my opinion, it's these seemingly minor dumbing down-issues aimed at selling extra copies of a game to very casual players that want simplicity and little thinking that leads to catastrophic decline in quality gaming companies. The lawyers and stock holders push for this sort of thing against the wishes of actual designers. It's up to us, the core players to push for a more realistic experience, when this sort of thing happens.

Also, as a rule, these tendencies to move towards less complex, and more generic game experiences are almost always a one way ride. Once a company starts down the path of simplifying and making things easier, there is seldom any return to deeper, richer game play.

Hopefully, Larian already realizes all this, and the in-place camping in the wilderness is simply not implemented yet.



This is a great post, and very true. I agree with every word.

Unfortunately, money talks. I don't think there's any developer out there that if offered the choice of selling a million copies, or selling 100,000 copies, would choose the latter.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
^^ Yeah, grognard tier is just not going to happen when there is a risk that people will just rage quit the game as they are overwhelmed by fatigue, no healing, no ability to camp, cant make it back to waypoint, forgot to save, on their first playthrough then leave a bad review on steam. I enjoyed playing Skyrim with a survival mod enabled but if that had been there as default I can't imagine the annoyance level for many people.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
In other words:


[Linked Image]

Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
It's been a while since I played it but I'm fairly you that in DOS2 you could travel to any waypoint from any location as long as you had it unlocked and weren't in combat.
But yeah, even Larian themselves are guilty of removing complexity found in their older games in favour of making it more mass-marketable. People like to blame publishers for all evil in the world, but in reality it's just an inevitable outcome once a studio or franchise becomes big enough to stand on its own legs.

Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
But what is the problem here, someone doesn't like fast travel then no ones forces him/her to use this tool. Walk freely, enjoy backtracking.

Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
Even if you choose not to use them their presence will still have an impact on the way the game is designed as well as decisions made by the developers.
It's the same as if a game balances its skill check DCs around save scumming because the developers expect or blindly assume that people will do it in order to get the result they want. Even if you choose not to indulge in the activity or feature the game still expects you to use it.

Joined: Jan 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Jan 2020
You have to find that perfect blend with the hardcore and the softcore.

Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by Painbringer71
You have to find that perfect blend with the hardcore and the softcore.

Pretty much. There's (probably) no way to win.

Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
Originally Posted by Bukke
Even if you choose not to use them their presence will still have an impact on the way the game is designed as well as decisions made by the developers.
It's the same as if a game balances its skill check DCs around save scumming because the developers expect or blindly assume that people will do it in order to get the result they want. Even if you choose not to indulge in the activity or feature the game still expects you to use it.


Ikr, but this is turn-based rpg, not another Dark Souls with plenty of shortcuts to open and enemy respawn. However we still can shortcut via jump. Game is not fully released, there may be a reason why those runes exist.

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
I guess the fast travel VS no fast travel discussion is totally irrelevant. Fast travel is necessary with such maps.

On the other hand, from what I read it looks like many people don't like the runes and for more than justified reasons.
Giving us the feeling we're walking instead of using WTF runes that doesn't exists in the Forgotten Realms is easy and there are more than one solution.

About the "rest" system, it's definitely a problem at the moment but it probably require way more attention than what this topic is about.


Originally Posted by Verte
there may be a reason why those runes exist.


A reason why we're the only one able to travel through those runes ?
Let me attempt something : the tadpole ? grin

Last edited by Maximuuus; 15/11/20 03:24 PM.
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: void
Our tadpole is magically tampered, who knows. Exchange runes for anything, it will work the same, move players from spot A to spot B. I have played the games where I had to backtrack like mad and it was far from having fun time.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Online Confused
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess the fast travel VS no fast travel discussion is totally irrelevant. Fast travel is necessary with such maps.

On the other hand, from what I read it looks like many people don't like the runes and for more than justified reasons.
Giving us the feeling we're walking instead of using WTF runes that doesn't exists in the Forgotten Realms is easy and there are more than one solution.

About the "rest" system, it's definitely a problem at the moment but it probably require way more attention than what this topic is about.


Originally Posted by Verte
there may be a reason why those runes exist.


A reason why we're the only one able to travel through those runes ?
Let me attempt something : the tadpole ? grin

But the runes do exist in Forgotten Realms. The only problem here that normally they require you to cast a certain spell. And once upon a time in NWN this exact problem was simply solved by granting the player homebrewed teleportation stone and some another homebrew artifact in SotU. Larian here could apply same exact solution through some small quest or giving us the artifact on naughtoloid.

Last edited by Zellin; 15/11/20 03:44 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess the fast travel VS no fast travel discussion is totally irrelevant. Fast travel is necessary with such maps.

On the other hand, from what I read it looks like many people don't like the runes and for more than justified reasons.
Giving us the feeling we're walking instead of using WTF runes that doesn't exists in the Forgotten Realms is easy and there are more than one solution.

About the "rest" system, it's definitely a problem at the moment but it probably require way more attention than what this topic is about.


Originally Posted by Verte
there may be a reason why those runes exist.


A reason why we're the only one able to travel through those runes ?
Let me attempt something : the tadpole ? grin

But the runes do exist in Forgotten Realms. The only problem here that normally they require you to cast a certain spell. And once upon a time in NWN this exact problem was simply solved by granting the player homebrewed teleportation stone and some another homebrew artifact in SotU. Larian here could apply same exact solution through some small quest or giving us the artifact on naughtoloid.


Sorry it wasn't probably the right words.
It's not "common" in the Forgotten Realm is probably better.

Originally Posted by Verte
Our tadpole is magically tampered, who knows. Exchange runes for anything, it will work the same, move players from spot A to spot B. I have played the games where I had to backtrack like mad and it was far from having fun time.


Yea it work the same, but it could become a travel instead of a TP. The mechanics are the same, so is the result... But the feeling is not.
This is very different if you care about the reality of the world in which the game take place.

Joined: Sep 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Zellin
But the runes do exist in Forgotten Realms. The only problem here that normally they require you to cast a certain spell. And once upon a time in NWN this exact problem was simply solved by granting the player homebrewed teleportation stone and some another homebrew artifact in SotU. Larian here could apply same exact solution through some small quest or giving us the artifact on naughtoloid.

A single line could be added to Gale's introduction: "I found this stone in the wreckage of the nautiloid; it seems to light up when brought near these runes."
Either these runes could be the general Teleportation Circles that exist in Forgotten Realms, or they could be some specific Absolute-related creation that you have gained access to through stealing/recovering this magic stone. Either option aids immersion, and the latter option could be relevant to the story-at-large.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Online Confused
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Zellin
But the runes do exist in Forgotten Realms. The only problem here that normally they require you to cast a certain spell. And once upon a time in NWN this exact problem was simply solved by granting the player homebrewed teleportation stone and some another homebrew artifact in SotU. Larian here could apply same exact solution through some small quest or giving us the artifact on naughtoloid.

A single line could be added to Gale's introduction: "I found this stone in the wreckage of the nautiloid; it seems to light up when brought near these runes."
Either these runes could be the general Teleportation Circles that exist in Forgotten Realms, or they could be some specific Absolute-related creation that you have gained access to through stealing/recovering this magic stone. Either option aids immersion, and the latter option could be relevant to the story-at-large.

Giving it through Gale this way can be a problem. It's assuming we find him, we ask him about the portals and we either take him as companion either rob.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5