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Ari #735463 17/11/20 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ari
Why doesn’t everyone just sit back and let Larian prove the other side wrong? You can gloat and fume to your hearts content after the fact.

Can't be done, the opposition now might have useful items on their corpses which will be needed for the troll wars of 2021

Argyle #735481 17/11/20 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Argyle
BioWare used to participate in the Baldur's Gate forums quite a bit. I can recall many posts by David Gaider, Derek French, an occasional note from Greg Zeschuk, Mark Darrah, Ben Smedsted, and even crotchety but wonderful John Winski who hated online forums and posted only to complain about them, ha ha. I appreciated all of them for making the online community integral to the product development, even if only in small ways. I know many ideas discussed on the 'boards did end up as features (inventory management!), incidents, or even characters in the first BG games. Maybe that community spirit was an element of what made Baldur's Gate so special compared to the other excellent titles at that time?

I too would love to meet some of the Larian people here in the forums and hear what they think, but I understand that they probably would have to post on their own time, and who wants to talk about work on their own nickel, eh? Certainly not me. I think of the old Aesop fable, the North Wind and the Sun. The Wind was claiming he was more powerful than the Sun, so the Sun said, OK, see that man down there wearing the cloak? Let's have a contest, and whoever gets the man to remove his cloak wins. The Wind agreed and blew furiously and even knocked the man over, but the man just clutched his cloak even tighter. Eventually the Wind gave up. The Sun then softly shone warm light down upon the man, and kept shining for a length of time. Eventually the man relaxed, and started to feel a little too warm, and so he took off his cloak. Some say the moral of the story is "Gentleness and kind persuasion win where force and bluster fail." That's a pleasant and practical thought, but I sometimes wonder whether some might derive from this fable that the trick is to set up the game so that you can win.

This is not a fair criticism. Different times.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
Abits #735539 17/11/20 12:47 PM
Joined: May 2020
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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Argyle
BioWare used to participate in the Baldur's Gate forums quite a bit. I can recall many posts by David Gaider, Derek French, an occasional note from Greg Zeschuk, Mark Darrah, Ben Smedsted, and even crotchety but wonderful John Winski who hated online forums and posted only to complain about them, ha ha. I appreciated all of them for making the online community integral to the product development, even if only in small ways. I know many ideas discussed on the 'boards did end up as features (inventory management!), incidents, or even characters in the first BG games. Maybe that community spirit was an element of what made Baldur's Gate so special compared to the other excellent titles at that time?

I too would love to meet some of the Larian people here in the forums and hear what they think, but I understand that they probably would have to post on their own time, and who wants to talk about work on their own nickel, eh? Certainly not me. I think of the old Aesop fable, the North Wind and the Sun. The Wind was claiming he was more powerful than the Sun, so the Sun said, OK, see that man down there wearing the cloak? Let's have a contest, and whoever gets the man to remove his cloak wins. The Wind agreed and blew furiously and even knocked the man over, but the man just clutched his cloak even tighter. Eventually the Wind gave up. The Sun then softly shone warm light down upon the man, and kept shining for a length of time. Eventually the man relaxed, and started to feel a little too warm, and so he took off his cloak. Some say the moral of the story is "Gentleness and kind persuasion win where force and bluster fail." That's a pleasant and practical thought, but I sometimes wonder whether some might derive from this fable that the trick is to set up the game so that you can win.

This is not a fair criticism. Different times.

Not to mention, BW eventually went to war with their own players and blew up the forums.

Let's be honest, gamers suck. They are immature, rude, and not overly bright. Their understanding of anything technical or even the realities of business is depressingly small. How do you have a reasonable conversation with people like that?

Tzelanit #735540 17/11/20 12:47 PM
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I don't mean to criticize, they were different times. You know what got me into BG forums in the first place? A bug! I got stuck on something in BG I, can't remember what it was, and I was so frustrated that I was about to throw the CD's out. But somehow I found out about the online forums, and sure enough I got some help there so that I could use the console commands to fix the problem and continue the game. Thanks, Tiffin! I see the same community thing going strong here, it's just that Larian is more in the background, just as I would probably do.

Tzelanit #735562 17/11/20 02:08 PM
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Just give them 6 months or 1 year and check back after to see changes. Some will take longer, years even. And most suggestions will just be ignored, otherwise they would have to start over and end up with a new game that would be just as much criticized and receive just as much suggestions on how to "fix it". It's no like we all agree on anything.

We can riot here every day, that won't improve the game and won't speed up it's release either. It's easy to backseat command when all the risks are carried by others.

Give a short and clear feedback and that's it. Relax. Life is more than just a single game. Do something else. Chill discussions and chit-chat are a way of life, but asking feedback to be implemented asap is just a sure way to make things worse.

Tzelanit #735633 17/11/20 05:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
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Originally Posted by LoneSky
Just give them 6 months or 1 year and check back after to see changes. Some will take longer, years even.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here...give them 6 months, 1 year, years? That could be the entire EA period. Presumably Larian will want feedback on any changes they make, so it wouldn't make sense for them to wait so long to implement changes.

Originally Posted by LoneSky
And most suggestions will just be ignored, otherwise they would have to start over and end up with a new game that would be just as much criticized and receive just as much suggestions on how to "fix it". It's no like we all agree on anything.

This is exactly why it's important to test changes earlier on in the EA process. If they decide to make changes after they've created most of/the entire game (6 months, 1 year, years into EA), they have to rewrite a lot!

And there's a difference between ignoring suggestions and not implementing them. A lot of us aren't asking for feedback to be implemented asap. We're asking for acknowledgement by Larian that non-bug-related feedback is being considered. If, in the next update, Larian doesn't mention working on any of the huge topics of discussion (party size, evil route, party controls, Advantage, environmental damage, unfun dialogue checks, prevalence of bonus actions making e.g, rogue less unique), that will be incredibly frustrating and disheartening.

mrfuji3 #735656 17/11/20 06:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by LoneSky
Just give them 6 months or 1 year and check back after to see changes. Some will take longer, years even.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here...give them 6 months, 1 year, years? That could be the entire EA period. Presumably Larian will want feedback on any changes they make, so it wouldn't make sense for them to wait so long to implement changes.

Originally Posted by LoneSky
And most suggestions will just be ignored, otherwise they would have to start over and end up with a new game that would be just as much criticized and receive just as much suggestions on how to "fix it". It's no like we all agree on anything.

This is exactly why it's important to test changes earlier on in the EA process. If they decide to make changes after they've created most of/the entire game (6 months, 1 year, years into EA), they have to rewrite a lot!

And there's a difference between ignoring suggestions and not implementing them. A lot of us aren't asking for feedback to be implemented asap. We're asking for acknowledgement by Larian that non-bug-related feedback is being considered. If, in the next update, Larian doesn't mention working on any of the huge topics of discussion (party size, evil route, party controls, Advantage, environmental damage, unfun dialogue checks, prevalence of bonus actions making e.g, rogue less unique), that will be incredibly frustrating and disheartening.


Nice to see someone using some logic and not willfully misinterpreting the post to make a bad argument to prove how stoic or edgy they are.
Again, my post wasn't meant to function as yet another mindless "tHiS gAmE sUcKs" post that we see daily.
I think it's valid to be frustrated at this point. I'm not losing my shit, nor am I out of options for other things to play.
To NOT voice these concerns would be problematic, whether or not they're being read by anyone who can do anything about them.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

Tzelanit #735667 17/11/20 07:00 PM
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At this point you are just hurting yourselves by being too involved in this one-sided relationship.

They just don't care enough to make a short list, acknowledging the major issues that need reworked or improved, based on player feedback and what is their opinion regarding these. It's very clear that there is no point expecting anything.
Not that they would be obliged to do so, but they asked for feedback.

We did our part. More can't be done.

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