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Like every single companion character is caught between two masters, and has some other superflous magical mutation. When the game is entirely about the characters fighting their current magical mutation and evil entity trying to overcome them, having another evil entitty/force/master that controls them or desires to control them just feels like to much.

When you are a vampire, that is trying to escape your vampire master, but also you are going to be turned into a Mind Flayer... its just fucking confusing. Also vampires in D&D are undead, not blade vampires, how is it that they can have their non-living bodies transformed into mind flayers isnt that like transforming a pile of dirt or unliving meat?

I realy feel like this needs to be toned down in the final game, the only one that doesnt have some crap going on other than the tadpole is Laezel.

Im sorry it just seems silly to me, its like "oh im turning into a mind flayer, and im turning into a magical explosion"

like, if you dont show restraint now, then when will you show restraint? Its like "oh no, i am become all monsters" oh no, I was bitten by a werewolf, and a zombie, and a vampire, and am possessed by a demon, and got a magic nuke in my chest, and a dark god wants to take me, and I was bitten by a friggin mummy, and an alien is taking over my brain... oh no oops all monsters.

I know im exaggerating its just... it distracts from the main story so bad.

Also again I have to point out somethign with Gale, if he has a scroll of true resurrection... we can send him out into the middle of the ocean, let him explode, and then just bring him back to life... solving both the Tadpole and Magic Nuke problem.

just... just make it a scroll of Raise Dead for crying out loud. Also a scroll of true ressurection is practically in terms of power an artifact level thing that he should have vored a long time ago.

Either tone it down, or make it clear that the Illithids were specifically seeking out individuals who have weird magic shit going on.

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Originally Posted by urktheturtle
"oh no, i am become all monsters"




I really just want this particular phrase to become a meme.

Can we make that happen?

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I have to agree, it reminds me of Kung Fury who was hit by a Lighting AND bitten by a Cobra at the same time, with the difference that its actually supposed to be over the top

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Because everyone is going through the tadpole thing and as every NPC is an origin character they all need their own side story you can have when you play them. Thus the silly design.

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Valid criticism. I would also like more focused storytelling and down to earth characters.

It's like this story throws everything and the kitchen sink at you right from the start. It's so much to take in that the multiple storylines and super interesting characters start eating each other's narrative power. I mentioned earlier I would have postponed the whole vampire story sidequest later in the game when you reach the city, when Astarion could also be a higher level character to reflect his 200 years. Give the city a fresh twist too. The beginning has enough with "just" the mind flayers and the githyanki which is already very exotic in Faerun, Hell and cambions... And the Absolute. Put all the focus on what's going on first.

Shadowhearts "reveal" could have waited until later. Well, it sort of is I guess but her secret isn't exactly a secret when her armor has like 15 symbols of Shar on it.

Gale could have received his condition later during the adventure. Etc.. Not everything needs to happen right away.

All of act I happens over the course of a few days. Less is more.

Last edited by 1varangian; 21/11/20 09:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by urktheturtle
Spoilers

Like every single companion character is caught between two masters, and has some other superflous magical mutation. When the game is entirely about the characters fighting their current magical mutation and evil entity trying to overcome them, having another evil entitty/force/master that controls them or desires to control them just feels like to much.

When you are a vampire, that is trying to escape your vampire master, but also you are going to be turned into a Mind Flayer... its just fucking confusing. Also vampires in D&D are undead, not blade vampires, how is it that they can have their non-living bodies transformed into mind flayers isnt that like transforming a pile of dirt or unliving meat?

I realy feel like this needs to be toned down in the final game, the only one that doesnt have some crap going on other than the tadpole is Laezel.

Im sorry it just seems silly to me, its like "oh im turning into a mind flayer, and im turning into a magical explosion"

like, if you dont show restraint now, then when will you show restraint? Its like "oh no, i am become all monsters" oh no, I was bitten by a werewolf, and a zombie, and a vampire, and am possessed by a demon, and got a magic nuke in my chest, and a dark god wants to take me, and I was bitten by a friggin mummy, and an alien is taking over my brain... oh no oops all monsters.

I know im exaggerating its just... it distracts from the main story so bad.

Also again I have to point out somethign with Gale, if he has a scroll of true resurrection... we can send him out into the middle of the ocean, let him explode, and then just bring him back to life... solving both the Tadpole and Magic Nuke problem.

just... just make it a scroll of Raise Dead for crying out loud. Also a scroll of true ressurection is practically in terms of power an artifact level thing that he should have vored a long time ago.

Either tone it down, or make it clear that the Illithids were specifically seeking out individuals who have weird magic shit going on.


+1

Yeah every week or so someone raises the topic of how flawed a lot of the story and writing are. Don't feel too bad if you don't receive much in the way of fanfare, the few of us really bothered by these things have pretty well beaten this subject to death. . .More than once.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
"oh no, i am become all monsters"


I really just want this particular phrase to become a meme.

Can we make that happen?


...I want this both as a meme and as something that could happen in the game. ALL monsters. No, I don't know how, and yes, it would be absolutely ridiculous. Maybe some very obscure (actually hard to learn about/find) ritual where you fuck up and piss of a power.

More on topic (kind of), there exist vampiric illithids and afaik their origin is a mystery. Perhaps it's just that, a vampire (spawn) undergone ceremorphosis.

Actually on topic, I don't mind companions being individuals with a lot of crazy stuff going on in their lives, but I do wish it would be explained somehow rather than it just being it such an incredible coincidence that all the special people are abducted. (Perhaps it will be explained later on, as plot unfolds?)

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Valid criticism. I would also like more focused storytelling and down to earth characters.

It's like this story throws everything and the kitchen sink at you right from the start. It's so much to take in that the multiple storylines and super interesting characters start eating each other's narrative power. I mentioned earlier I would have postponed the whole vampire story sidequest later in the game when you reach the city, when Astarion could also be a higher level character to reflect his 200 years. Give the city a fresh twist too. The beginning has enough with "just" the mind flayers and the githyanki which is already very exotic in Faerun, Hell and cambions... And the Absolute. Put all the focus on what's going on first.

Shadowhearts "reveal" could have waited until later. Well, it sort of is I guess but her secret isn't exactly a secret when her armor has like 15 symbols of Shar on it.

Gale could have received his condition later during the adventure. Etc.. Not everything needs to happen right away.

All of act I happens over the course of a few days. Less is more.


I think you might have the right idea here perhaps? Have some of this stuff happen later in the game, maybe have some of these companions later, switch them around.

Personally I think Gales most of all needs an overhaul, ,as I mentioned in my "story notes gale" thread, it can be toned down by having his need for magic items start off small and escalate... and by removing the part where he actually boned down with the god, and instead have had this thing happen because he was trying to get to that goal of making her fall in love with him, and trying to impress her...

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Originally Posted by urktheturtle
When you are a vampire, that is trying to escape your vampire master, but also you are going to be turned into a Mind Flayer... its just fucking confusing. Also vampires in D&D are undead, not blade vampires, how is it that they can have their non-living bodies transformed into mind flayers isnt that like transforming a pile of dirt or unliving meat?

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
More on topic (kind of), there exist vampiric illithids and afaik their origin is a mystery. Perhaps it's just that, a vampire (spawn) undergone ceremorphosis.

I mean, perhaps Astarion wouldn't turn into a mindflayer if this was normal ceremorphosis. Perhaps
if the netherese magic preventing the tadpole from turning us into mindflayers was removed
Astarion would just die. That'd be a pretty brutal ending for him...Larian?

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I'm surprised you don't like it. For me personal plots and relationships are the most interesting part of playing pen & paper RPG's. It makes the game much more complex and emotionally involving. I'm so grateful for pre-gens stories (especially for Astarion's, it's the pop cultural plot I've been waiting for very long time). To be honest, I have a theory that maybe all of these characters were chosen because of their unique aspects - maybe mind flayers experimented on them to create more powerful illithids or something like that?

Plus I guess everything happens so quickly because Act I is an exposition. You have to discover your party members' secrets to enjoy their progress later.

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I envy anyone who's never been in two extraordinary, less-than-desirable situations at once.
Players typically want characters in RPGs to be as close to real as possible, but this is asking to slim things down because it's too much to process?
The companions had lives before this, and people have issues. Those issues don't suddenly stop for the sake of convenience when things become more complicated and new issues arise.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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I blame this squarely on the origin character system.

Because all our companion needs to be able to serve as the protagonist, and they have to have the same plot motivator the main character along with their companion plot. This makes them double up on conflicts/forces.

If you took all the origin companions right now and removed their tadpole situation (and add some other excuses as to why they want to follow the main character), you'll end up more focused, traditional NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
I blame this squarely on the origin character system.

Because all our companion needs to be able to serve as the protagonist, and they have to have the same plot motivator the main character along with their companion plot. This makes them double up on conflicts/forces.

If you took all the origin companions right now and removed their tadpole situation (and add some other excuses as to why they want to follow the main character), you'll end up more focused, traditional NPCs.


You'd also end up with the entirety of Act 1 (and possibly more) having to be completely gutted and start over in order to have something else function as the central narrative.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I blame this squarely on the origin character system.

Because all our companion needs to be able to serve as the protagonist, and they have to have the same plot motivator the main character along with their companion plot. This makes them double up on conflicts/forces.

If you took all the origin companions right now and removed their tadpole situation (and add some other excuses as to why they want to follow the main character), you'll end up more focused, traditional NPCs.


You'd also end up with the entirety of Act 1 (and possibly more) having to be completely gutted and start over in order to have something else function as the central narrative.


Yeah, I'm not advocating to remove it at this point - just stating that it's the unavoidable side-effect of Larian's origin/companion system.

The set-up naturally forces every origin character to have the full plot of the main character + their own companion plot, which is what leads to the bloat in plot/conflict.

When I talked about "removing it", that's just a way to see that without the origin system, Larian's NPCs are like those of other games.


Last edited by Topgoon; 21/11/20 11:23 PM.
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I dont think its Unavoidable and just needs adjustments.

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Originally Posted by urktheturtle
just feels like too much.



Originally Posted by Topgoon
bloat in plot/conflict.



Ummm yeah. So some of us feel it is not too much and it's not bloated.

Don't mean to dismiss your feelings, just disagreeing.

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Originally Posted by Phea
I'm surprised you don't like it. For me personal plots and relationships are the most interesting part of playing pen & paper RPG's. It makes the game much more complex and emotionally involving. I'm so grateful for pre-gens stories (especially for Astarion's, it's the pop cultural plot I've been waiting for very long time). To be honest, I have a theory that maybe all of these characters were chosen because of their unique aspects - maybe mind flayers experimented on them to create more powerful illithids or something like that?

Plus I guess everything happens so quickly because Act I is an exposition. You have to discover your party members' secrets to enjoy their progress later.


I personally think revealing that these characters were chosen to become carriers for non-transformative tadpoles because of their unique situations, would go a long way to help iron things out. However I do have a secondary issue... in that, yes... I do like personal plots in pen and paper RPGs... I do not like it when someone has adventures that a level 20 wizard would have, and them to join my party... not even knowing magic missile. Gale has an artifact level magic item on him, a huge history, has had sex with god herself... and its like "pew tiny bolt of fire"

nobody in this group should be level 1, unless the tadpole has already eaten our brains and the tadpole just thinks its the people whose brain they have eaten...

If anyone came to my table with these backstories, except maybe shadowhearts... I would say "no, dial it back a little, you are level one"

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Valid criticism. I would also like more focused storytelling and down to earth characters.

It's like this story throws everything and the kitchen sink at you right from the start. It's so much to take in that the multiple storylines and super interesting characters start eating each other's narrative power. I mentioned earlier I would have postponed the whole vampire story sidequest later in the game when you reach the city, when Astarion could also be a higher level character to reflect his 200 years. Give the city a fresh twist too. The beginning has enough with "just" the mind flayers and the githyanki which is already very exotic in Faerun, Hell and cambions... And the Absolute. Put all the focus on what's going on first.

Shadowhearts "reveal" could have waited until later. Well, it sort of is I guess but her secret isn't exactly a secret when her armor has like 15 symbols of Shar on it.

Gale could have received his condition later during the adventure. Etc.. Not everything needs to happen right away.

All of act I happens over the course of a few days. Less is more.


The problem with that is that as apparently the choice of companions will be locked from Act 2 forward (same like in DOS2) they kinda have to spill the beans early so people know what they would get with each character.

Last edited by Ixal; 22/11/20 12:40 AM.
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I actually think Astarion's story interacts with the tadpole in a really interesting way. The tadpole IS his means of escaping his vampiric master. It isn't so much two terrible things happened to him at the same time. More like he's been a vampire slave for 200 years and this new thing that has happened to him opened up an entirely new path for him that might let him regain his freedom.

In that way Astarion works with the tadpole plot better than any other companion aside from possibly Lae'zel. Shadowheart's story might tie into it later as she discovers the mind powers might give her an edge as a cleric of Shar or perhaps is an avenue to reclaiming her memories, but that has yet to be seen.

Wyll and Gale are the only ones who's stories are entirely divorced from the tadpole plot and don't have an obvious way of integrating them going forward. Though who knows? We've only got the first chapter of the book, after all.

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Originally Posted by urktheturtle
When you are a vampire, that is trying to escape your vampire master, but also you are going to be turned into a Mind Flayer... its just fucking confusing. Also vampires in D&D are undead, not blade vampires, how is it that they can have their non-living bodies transformed into mind flayers isnt that like transforming a pile of dirt or unliving meat?

I believe we dont even know if Astariond would turn ... do we?
And what better way to find out, than simply test it. laugh

Maybe Absolute choosen Astarion and Gale for a reason ...
Maybe they need to test this new improved tadpole on people who arent exactly normal ... maybe Astarion was the only Vampire spawn, not carefull enough to be caught ... maybe they needed some strong mage to see if his magic will or will not interfere, and they senced Gales bomb instead of his power. laugh

And maybe Larian simply wanted our companions to have some story. :-/

I think this is really too soon, since Larian specificly told us that we dont have even all companions presented in game ...
And if you dont like them, there was also specificly told that we will be able to create own crew, or hire mercenaries without so deep backstory.

For myself i like it, its much more interesting to play with Gale who can explode ... than play with Gale, who spend his whole life in library, didnt seen anything except books and scrolls and nothing else really interests him. :-/

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
"oh no, i am become all monsters"

I really just want this particular phrase to become a meme.

Can we make that happen?

I believe i have seen some simmilar meme ...
It was from DnD session, where player wanted to play Zombie-Werewolf-Vampire ...

Sadly cant find it right now. frown

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 22/11/20 03:15 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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