Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 22
U
stranger
OP Offline
stranger
U
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
I actually think Astarion's story interacts with the tadpole in a really interesting way. The tadpole IS his means of escaping his vampiric master. It isn't so much two terrible things happened to him at the same time. More like he's been a vampire slave for 200 years and this new thing that has happened to him opened up an entirely new path for him that might let him regain his freedom.

In that way Astarion works with the tadpole plot better than any other companion aside from possibly Lae'zel. Shadowheart's story might tie into it later as she discovers the mind powers might give her an edge as a cleric of Shar or perhaps is an avenue to reclaiming her memories, but that has yet to be seen.

Wyll and Gale are the only ones who's stories are entirely divorced from the tadpole plot and don't have an obvious way of integrating them going forward. Though who knows? We've only got the first chapter of the book, after all.


Yeah Astarions story definitly integrates best I think.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,153
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,153
oh no, I am become all monsters

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 148
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 148
The Absolute is trying to create new religion. Converting a band of misfits first is the most suitable choice for such a task. Get them secretly tadpoled, give them a taste of the new power, show them that the power depends on you, then promise them you will solve all their problems if they do as you wish... Inner most devoted circle of your church is formed.

Our characters just happened to avoid some kind of memory wipe and know, that the power actually comes from the tadpoles.

Last edited by Zellin; 22/11/20 10:46 AM. Reason: typo
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
I do not like it when someone has adventures that a level 20 wizard would have, and them to join my party... not even knowing magic missile. Gale has an artifact level magic item on him, a huge history, has had sex with god herself... and its like "pew tiny bolt of fire"

nobody in this group should be level 1, unless the tadpole has already eaten our brains and the tadpole just thinks its the people whose brain they have eaten...

If anyone came to my table with these backstories, except maybe shadowhearts... I would say "no, dial it back a little, you are level one"


I understand it but I think everything is possible. If I were your player, this is what I’d say wink

“Ok, but all I want is to roleplay such character - I don't really need mechanical benefits - so maybe we could agree he was an archmage but something happened to him and he lost all his powers and he has to learn everything again. It’s frustrating for him and it creates interesting beggining of character arc”.

Or:

“Ok but I reeeeeally want to roleplay a vampire spawn (I really do, lol) so maybe my character’s master ordered me to drink the worst blood possible - small animals, rotting rats - and that’s why my character is so weak. Plus he made a mysterious inscription on my body - maybe its magic keeps me from becoming too powerful?”

Last edited by Phea; 22/11/20 03:25 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 598
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 598
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
I do not like it when someone has adventures that a level 20 wizard would have, and them to join my party... not even knowing magic missile. Gale has an artifact level magic item on him, a huge history, has had sex with god herself... and its like "pew tiny bolt of fire"

nobody in this group should be level 1, unless the tadpole has already eaten our brains and the tadpole just thinks its the people whose brain they have eaten...

If anyone came to my table with these backstories, except maybe shadowhearts... I would say "no, dial it back a little, you are level one"

Why should he know magic missiles? O_o

He could be Arcanist ...
Using his Intelligence and talent for magic to simply study lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.

He could be Historian ...
Studying lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.

He could be some kind of Nature sage ...
Studying about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.

Or Religionist ...
Studying about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.

And those are just options purely based on Itelligence description. laugh
I bet we could find many more options among mages wich simply dont have acess to destructive magic, since they never needed it.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 93
T
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
T
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Valid criticism. I would also like more focused storytelling and down to earth characters.

It's like this story throws everything and the kitchen sink at you right from the start. It's so much to take in that the multiple storylines and super interesting characters start eating each other's narrative power. I mentioned earlier I would have postponed the whole vampire story sidequest later in the game when you reach the city, when Astarion could also be a higher level character to reflect his 200 years. Give the city a fresh twist too. The beginning has enough with "just" the mind flayers and the githyanki which is already very exotic in Faerun, Hell and cambions... And the Absolute. Put all the focus on what's going on first.

Shadowhearts "reveal" could have waited until later. Well, it sort of is I guess but her secret isn't exactly a secret when her armor has like 15 symbols of Shar on it.

Gale could have received his condition later during the adventure. Etc.. Not everything needs to happen right away.

All of act I happens over the course of a few days. Less is more.


The problem with that is that as apparently the choice of companions will be locked from Act 2 forward (same like in DOS2) they kinda have to spill the beans early so people know what they would get with each character.


Has this been recently confirmed? The last update I've seen on this was on Kevin Van Ord stream where he mentioned they weren't sure if locking in was a thing. Although that stream appears to be gone now, so I'm not sure if it was pulled down because Larian doesn't want to stand by some of the things he said.

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
Spoilers

Like every single companion character is caught between two masters, and has some other superflous magical mutation. When the game is entirely about the characters fighting their current magical mutation and evil entity trying to overcome them, having another evil entitty/force/master that controls them or desires to control them just feels like to much.

When you are a vampire, that is trying to escape your vampire master, but also you are going to be turned into a Mind Flayer... its just fucking confusing. Also vampires in D&D are undead, not blade vampires, how is it that they can have their non-living bodies transformed into mind flayers isnt that like transforming a pile of dirt or unliving meat?

I realy feel like this needs to be toned down in the final game, the only one that doesnt have some crap going on other than the tadpole is Laezel.

Im sorry it just seems silly to me, its like "oh im turning into a mind flayer, and im turning into a magical explosion"

like, if you dont show restraint now, then when will you show restraint? Its like "oh no, i am become all monsters" oh no, I was bitten by a werewolf, and a zombie, and a vampire, and am possessed by a demon, and got a magic nuke in my chest, and a dark god wants to take me, and I was bitten by a friggin mummy, and an alien is taking over my brain... oh no oops all monsters.

I know im exaggerating its just... it distracts from the main story so bad.

Also again I have to point out somethign with Gale, if he has a scroll of true resurrection... we can send him out into the middle of the ocean, let him explode, and then just bring him back to life... solving both the Tadpole and Magic Nuke problem.

just... just make it a scroll of Raise Dead for crying out loud. Also a scroll of true ressurection is practically in terms of power an artifact level thing that he should have vored a long time ago.

Either tone it down, or make it clear that the Illithids were specifically seeking out individuals who have weird magic shit going on.


I criticized this somewhere else. Larians writers tend to go over the top. They need to learn a bit restraint.

The point they tend to miss is that you necessarily need common, normal people to contrast your powerful characters and races with.

You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 352
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by Arne

I criticized this somewhere else. Larians writers tend to go over the top. They need to learn a bit restraint.

The point they tend to miss is that you necessarily need common, normal people to contrast your powerful characters and races with.

You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.


True that, I see people complain there are 2 humans in the party and we need more extravagant races around. Is not that mindflayers enslave mostly humanoid races or something has changed lately...

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Verte
Originally Posted by Arne

I criticized this somewhere else. Larians writers tend to go over the top. They need to learn a bit restraint.

The point they tend to miss is that you necessarily need common, normal people to contrast your powerful characters and races with.

You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.


True that, I see people complain there are 2 humans in the party and we need more extravagant races around. Is not that mindflayers enslave mostly humanoid races or something has changed lately...


You can take any movie or any games. Characters like Data, Seven of Nine, Trance Gemini can only shine, if there are 'normal' characters around.

Apart from that, 'weak' characters do in fact have a certain appeal. If everyone around you is a powerful Tiefling, Drow or Queen of Dragons, a human girl picking flowers in the woods suddenly becomes something special wink

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 245
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 245
Originally Posted by Arne

I criticized this somewhere else. Larians writers tend to go over the top. They need to learn a bit restraint.

The point they tend to miss is that you necessarily need common, normal people to contrast your powerful characters and races with.

You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.


Yeah, I have made the same observation and tend to agree.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 572
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 572
As one of the people complaining about too many humans in the party and expressing joy at the thought of being able to play as a "weird race" or having "weird race" companions, I wish to add something. wink

By all means, I agree that "special" characters should be a drop in the ocean of normies. But I'd say it's enough if the world is the "normal" backdrop; like that human fisher's village. (And yes, we do need more normal backdrop.) Our party could be the band of oddballs.

Then again, as much as I like "weird" characters and would love a whole party of them, the best scenario would be a mix of companions, the whole spectrum of "weirdness". That way you can either have a party of exotic weirdos or a party where weird and normal play off each other - contrast can work amazingly for party dynamics or highlighting the weirdness. Either by having one "straight man" or one "what is this even". Or a more or less even mix. (Or you could have a party of normies if that's more your thing. :P )

Moreover, boring and strange could mix even in one character. Like you have Minsc, a "boring human" with a personality that's anything but boring. Or Aerie, who is an avariel and... your typical wide-eyed naive girl with a sad backstory.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Arne
You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.

I get your point and I agree that fisher's village would make illithids look more special but on the other hand I started in far too many "fisher's villages" to enjoy them even a little. Even tiefling refugees seemed too generic for me.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 93
A
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
A
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by Ixal
Because everyone is going through the tadpole thing

Tadpoles are like puberty. grin

(I know that wasn't meant here, but my mind went to places...)

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

By all means, I agree that "special" characters should be a drop in the ocean of normies. But I'd say it's enough if the world is the "normal" backdrop; like that human fisher's village. (And yes, we do need more normal backdrop.) Our party could be the band of oddballs.


That would be completely fine. After all, your party is going to "save the world". So, it's allowed that it is "stronger" than the average.

Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by Arne
You need a human fisher's village to have Tieflings, Mind Flayers and Elves be something special. If you continuously throw powerful races at us, they become boring and dull.

I get your point and I agree that fisher's village would make illithids look more special but on the other hand I started in far too many "fisher's villages" to enjoy them even a little. Even tiefling refugees seemed too generic for me.


True, the "hobbit village" starting point has been used in so many books and games that it is difficult to write it well. If I go back to Lord of the Rings, it feels a bit generic and long winded how Tolkien writes in the beginning about the planned feast and Gandalf's visit. At the same time, you can't just jump directly to the strongest foes and most powerful beings, there is no awe and wonder in that. You have to describe everyday life and small worries to make the coming wars and suffering more credible.

And that, of course, is an art.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Arne
You have to describe everyday life and small worries to make the coming wars and suffering more credible.

That's why I would LOVE to experience the player character's life (especially pre-gens' lives tbh) before they were kidnapped as possible game prologue : D It would be a great exposition and it would build emotional connection to their personal plots and NPCs we could find again in Act 2.

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by Arne
You have to describe everyday life and small worries to make the coming wars and suffering more credible.

That's why I would LOVE to experience the player character's life (especially pre-gens' lives tbh) before they were kidnapped as possible game prologue : D It would be a great exposition and it would build emotional connection to their personal plots and NPCs we could find again in Act 2.


In my pen & paper games (where I was GM) I always let the players start at level "0" - as children wink And only when they reached level 1 they chose their class.

I think it's important to start small.

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,153
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,153
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by urktheturtle
I do not like it when someone has adventures that a level 20 wizard would have, and them to join my party... not even knowing magic missile. Gale has an artifact level magic item on him, a huge history, has had sex with god herself... and its like "pew tiny bolt of fire"

nobody in this group should be level 1, unless the tadpole has already eaten our brains and the tadpole just thinks its the people whose brain they have eaten...

If anyone came to my table with these backstories, except maybe shadowhearts... I would say "no, dial it back a little, you are level one"

Why should he know magic missiles? O_o

He could be Arcanist ...
Using his Intelligence and talent for magic to simply study lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.

He could be Historian ...
Studying lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.

He could be some kind of Nature sage ...
Studying about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles.

Or Religionist ...
Studying about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults.

And those are just options purely based on Itelligence description. laugh
I bet we could find many more options among mages wich simply dont have acess to destructive magic, since they never needed it.



Good point.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 255
I
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
I
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 255
Its not that you can't have special characters, but the way Larian handles them is clumsy.

Lets compare them to the characters in Pathfinder (in spoilers in case people haven't played it)

- Amiri

Normal barbarian out to prove herself by fighting stuff. Nothing special

Would work as Origin Character: Yes

- Ekundayo

Ranger out for revenge

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later in the game)

- Harrim

Cleric who turned away from his racial god to the god of the end times out of disappointment. Is blessed by his racial god to be some form of ultimate destructor of dwarven craft so that he can destroy unneeded things.

Would work as Origin Character: Yes

- Jaethal

Elf who was murdered, but raised as an undead by a god whom she now serves

Would work as Origin Character: Yes

- Jubilost

Famed writer and cartographer making a stop in your country now that it is being civilized to update his maps and writing articles about it

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later)

- Kalikke

Tiefling, cursed to constantly switch places with her sister, destined to never meet her again

Would work as Origin Character: Maybe, see spoiler

- Linzi

Bard wanting to have first hand experience of an adventure to make her writing authentic.

Would work as Origin Character: No (special event later on)

Nok-Nok

Comic relief goblin who thinks hes a hero

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later)

Octavia

Escaped slave. Normal half-elf trained in magic

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later)

Regongar


Escaped slave. Half-Orc with a bit of dragon blood

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later)

Tristian

Poses as a human, actually an angel who descended to fight evil which is found out much later. Vanishes for part of the story

Would work as Origin Character: No (met later)

Valerie

Fighter who left a paladin order because she was fed up by them

Would work as Origin Character: Yes

As you can see, it also has some special characters, but that is slowly discovered over the game. Most of the characters are normal and more or less average people. Also many of them are introduced later in the game instead of being available from the start which is a must with origin characters.

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,025
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,025
That's how Larian write things...

The game start in hell with mindflayer and dragons and cambions and you're going to the underdark at level 3 + there's another dragon and every creature is powerful and...

Everything is so sensational that nothing is really sensational anymore.... Whatever we're talking about the story, the visual effects, the surfaces, the combats,....


Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/11/20 03:27 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 572
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 572
I don't mind starting in a setting that's way above your league, but then you should be thrown back into the mostly mundane world of level 1 PCs. Fighting goblins (check), with every powerful monster (rarely encountered) being something that's not supposed to be fought on such a low level. We didn't have dragons and liches in BG1.

If you're a low-level character in a high-level environment, you should feel that.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5