Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#739350 27/11/20 03:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Niara Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2020
This feedback is focused on the current interpretation and implementation of spells and spell effects, partially along with what we've been told to expect regarding some of these in the future. There is cross-over between this, and the issue of status effects and their implementation, but this feedback will focus on spells.

Wizard Cantrips

Mending, Message and Prestidigitation are missing from Wizard cantrips, however, as much as they're fun and almost indispensable cantrips for many players in actual 5e RP, it's understandable why they don't make the cut for a video game. I'd like it if we could have Mending to repair objects that get broken or shattered, but failing that perhaps it could restore a damaged object to full hp instead.

Message could be given a situational role; since it's inaudible to anyone else, it can function as a form of private communication, and it could potentially also be used to initiate dialogue with a character from long range, such as talking to prisoners you're not supposed to visit, or other similar situations.... again though, it's niche. I'd like to see it, but I won't complain about its lack.

Presti might be nice to have little camp scene niceties be improved as long as someone in camp has access to the cantrip – easy fire lighting, better food, easy cleaning, etc... creature comfort details. It would be background thing though, I imagine, so unless our camp gets a lot more atmospheric, probably also not worth the investment.

Acid Splash: The explode radius of the game's interpretation of this spell means that it can easily hit up to 4 targets, rather than the original 2. It creates a surface as well, but I'll write a section on that later; it's been heavily discussed by many already. (*Fixed*) This spell's explode radius should be reduced to 3ft; this brings it into line with the written spell, and would still allow you to catch two targets with it. Though the original spells specifically calls out targeting a creature, or two creatures, this one should benefit from being able to be targeted at a ground spot, as long as there's at least one target in its radius.

Blade Ward: The extra turn of duration is a positive boost to this otherwise difficult to use cantrip. Thumbs up from me for this one.

Dancing Lights: The ability to control and move the lights is much more limited in the game's translation, but it is acceptable. I'd very much like to be able to target it on four points within range, rather than one, as that would help it line up with the written spell better. I'd also like a few different colours...

Fire Bolt: Fire bolt, due to its surface creation, is a guaranteed damage cantrip right now. This is absolute anathema to the way spells are designed and balanced... if we have a cantrip that deals damage guaranteed, even when you miss or critical miss, then it drastically weakens all other levelled spells by comparison. I've found frequently that the most effective way for my casters to take their turns in fights is to simply ignore all of their other spell options, and just spam fire bolt; this is not good. Fire Bolt should not create a surface at all. Take that away, and give it BACK its d10 damage die. (*Fixed: Surface spawn removed and d10 damage die restored*)

Light: I like light. It's neat and well handled for the most part. You can do everything you might want to with it, including casting it on an object and putting that object in your back to hide the light until you take it out. That's great. The one flaw is that you cannot dismiss the light in any way. The best fix for this is simple; have casting light on an object with the light status simply remove the light status again. Yes it'll take another action to do, but it's straight forward and saves you having to put another button somewhere.

Mage Hand: Just no. This is bad. Mage Hand cannot attack – the spell specifically calls that out, so WHY did you give it an attack? Mage Hand is not concentration, and the most it can carry is 10lb, so it can't realistically shove anyone. What Mage Hand should be doing is allowing us to open chests and doors at range, and to carry up to 10lb of stuff from said chests back to us, or around the immediate area as needed.

Minor Illusion: A better visual would be nice. I'm assuming the training dummy is a place-holder for now. Other than that, its translation into game does what you'd expect of it. Thumbs up.

Poison Spray: Seems to work as written and as described by the game's tooltips. Thumbs up.

Ray of Frost: The other big problem cantrip, again because it creates a surface regardless that the target must immediately save against. Except, according to the combat log, they often don't even get to attempt a save if targeted directly... My combat log track for this shows a critical miss, followed by the target acquiring the Prone condition, with no save offered. Sometimes they do get a save; it seems inconsistent. Given the problem with the prone condition this becomes brutally overpowered for a cantrip (free automatic concentration break, etc.). Ray of Frost should not create a surface at all... or at the very least, if it must, it should not create a surface if targeting an enemy. Attempting to shoot the ground just under an enemy in that case should just snap the target to them. (*Fixed!*)

Shocking Grasp: Seems to be working as written and as described in tooltips. On its own its perfect. It should, however, not be creating large swathes of electrified water or blood that can down an entire room... and I've seen it do that when combined with water on the floor. That's bonkers. Shocking grasp has advantage on targets wearing metal armour. If you want it to interact with surfaces, why don't you have it also grant advantage when targeted against an enemy that is wet, or standing in water? No extra effects or room electrification.

True Strike: The extra duration (slightly) improves this originally difficult to use cantrip. Thumbs up!

1st Level Spells:

Missing: Alarm, Chromatic Orb, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Floating Disc, Hideous Laughter(*), Identify, Illusory Script, Shield, Silent Image, Unseen Servant.

Alarm is niche, but I'd like to see it added to the game if we have more travel and more camp-related surprises. Any situation where we might get ambushed at our camp, having any character with access to Alarm as a ritual could prevent surprise or something of that nature. It's understandable that it's not present in the game as currently presented, however.

Chromatic Orb is a puzzling one, especially given how much current game design favours and loves attack roll spells. I can only suppose that it is absent because it involves player choice in combat... more on that issue later, but the short is that anything that involves player choice in combat is largely incompatible with the current game design, and it absolutely NEEDS to be fixed.

Comprehend Languages is also puzzling, given how many “A language you can't read/don't know” I ran into just in the first chapter. There's more than enough material to warrant the spell's inclusion.

Detect Magic and Identify's absences are understandable for the time being, where everything even remotely magical is flashy, highly visible, and already fully identified from the outset. I'd like this to change, but if it doesn't, it's not something I'd rise hell over.

Floating Disc is one I'd like to see: given the mechanics BG3 is already using for summons, floating Disc would just be a summon with a large carrying capacity... a welcome follower for that noodle-armed wizard. Also the amusing consequence of everything cascading onto the ground when it goes away on along rest.

Hideous Laughter was removed from the wizard's list, even though it is in the game, and available to the Old One Warlock. Why? Why arbitrarily remove this spell from Wizards? Give it back. I'll break the spell itself down in the Warlock section, since that's where it is in the current game.

Illusory Script, Unseen Servent, Silent Image: These spells are understandably missing, due to their niche application, or function that doesn't apply well to a video game scenario.

Shield: The lack of Shield is utterly unforgivable, though comments from the team imply we'll get it later, when they've sorted some other things out... however, those comments describe a way of handling reactions in combat that is simply not going to cut it at all... this comes back to player choice in combat, and the way the game currently denies it.

To the spells that are represented:

Burning Hands: Seems to work both as written and as described by the game. The fact that fire bolt creates a surface and this doesn't is a bit silly. Fire bolt should not, while higher level fire spells maybe could. If Burning Hands was to create a surface underneath it, you would need to reduce its damage die by one. Otherwise it's fine as is.

Charm Person: As far as I've been ale to check, upcasting this does nothing; you don't get the extra targets, at least not as far as I've seen. That needs to be fixed. The other problem here is that its description in its spell card, its tooltip, and its status effect disagree with and contradict each other. One says that it gives advantage on all checks in dialogue (charmer against charmed), while the other says you have advantage on all charisma checks against the target. These are not the same thing... and it's concerning to think that Larian supposes they are. If the charmed tooltip is accurate (stating that we have advantage on all ability checks in dialogue with the target), we should have advantage on insight checks, as well as an Intelligence (history, religion, etc.,) checks we make in the course of conversation to mention, bring up, or respond to information... if the Spell description is correct (advantage on charisma checks), then we do not. They currently contradict.

Neither the spell card, nor the tooltip indicate that the charm will break on damage or harmful activity... though they do. That's kind of an important detail to leave out. Charmed targets will often go out of their way to provoke opportunity attacks and thus free themselves of the charm. They seem to do this knowingly and deliberately. That's a problem. Our characters take those opportunity attacks, despite knowing that the target is charmed. Also a problem.

Colour Spray and Sleep: These spells use the die average rather than rolling, and that's okay, in a pinch. The bigger problem is this: In the original rules, Colour Spray will blind 4 goblins on average, and can blind up to 8 on a good roll. In BG3 currently, it might blind 2 goblins, at MOST. Sleep, in the original rules, will sleep 3 goblins on an average roll, while in the game it can sleep 2 goblins at most... and it only gets two goblins because they aren't actually using the die average – at level one – it's 2 points higher, to Allow it to get 2 goblins.... die average would only get 1 goblin in game. This is a large weakening of these spells, as a result of the largely thoughtless changes to monster stats to favour attack rolls, to the detriment of everything else.

Disguise Self: Currently cannot be cast with a higher level slot. At all. No reason for this – I'm going to presume it's a bug, and I've submitted it as such. Otherwise the spells' function is very limited in game. More options would be good. Perhaps the ability to target a creature we can see to assume their appearance?

Expeditious Retreat: Currently works exactly as it does in the original rules, however, the spell itself doesn't indicate this, and that may lead it to be very misleading to people who don't already know 5e or the spell. Reading the tooltips and spell cards, right now, you'd believe that you have to cast it with your bonus action, but don't get any extra movement until next turn, since you'd have already used your bonus action this turn. In reality, it DOES also give you dash when you cast it, but it needs to say that.

False Life: False Life claims it gives a flat number (which is below the expected spell average), however in reality it gives more than that. At 1st level, it claims to give 5, but gives 7 when cast, while at second level it claims to give 10, but gives 12 when cast.

Feather Fall: Saving discussion about Larian's intention for handling reactions and player choice in combat for later, the fact that Feather Fall lasts for the full minute after casting is actually a good tweak for a video game medium. The fact that we cannot actually use it to save people who need it, unless we psychically know ahead of time and pre-cast it, is unacceptable... I will say that in a game setting, we should certainly be *Able* to pre-cast it before jumping the party off a cliff... but that shouldn't take away from it being a proper reaction to save ourselves from an unexpected fall, which is the spell's primary purpose.

Find Familiar: The spell card says that it summons a fey, but it doesn't. Our familiar is a Beast, not a Fey – and this is a distinction that matters for various reasons. Inaccurate tooltip aside, this needs to be fixed. The bigger issue with Find Familiar as it stands is that we cannot use it for one of its most versatile applications, which is the delivering of our touch spells through the familiar. This is an important part of the spell, a very important part of it, in fact. This needs to be rectified.

Fog Cloud: Works as written in the original rules, however the tooltip and spell card do not indicate this; you get a larger cloud on upcast, but someone not familiar with 5e already has no way of knowing that.

Grease: Grease is not flammable. There was even a sage advice on this. If the spell created a flammable surface, it would say so. It does not. Lubricating grease just isn't a flame hazard. If the spell was “Oilslick”, sure... but it's not. It shouldn't burn; in fact it should douse and replace fire surfaces. A bigger problem exists with Grease, but it's an issue that plagues many, many spells, and I'll talk about it in more detail below. The issue is in timing; *When* you make your saves is very important to the balance of spells, and the current implementation throws that right out the window in a bad way. More on bad spell timing changes below.

Jump: Works as written, however it hits up against a problem in the game's design. Distance travelled with a jump is just a part of your movement, and jumping itself does not, and should not, cost any part of your turn economy. As it is, this spell can let people jump upwards of 60 feet, and then use the rest of their movement as well... it should not do this, and it causes balance problems. The minotaurs with the 90 foot jump are an example of some of the tomfoolery this approach to jumping and movement causes. This is especially terrible considering the nearly-across-the-board decrease in spell ranges. (Added: Supposed verticality is also an issue here - we can't jump where we can't see, and we cannot move the camera to higher areas manually; even 'tactical view' does not answer this issue with being able to see higher floors. Our ability to jump upwards doesn't increase at all, partially as a reuslt of this.)

Longstrider: Works as written, though it's really quite excessively flashy in its visual effect. Since we often target this spell on allies or multiple allies, it highlights a particularly bad problem with targeting buff spells on allies, related to the game's pathing system and movement: I tried to cast this spell with Gale as the spell's second target Four times in a row. Each time, I prepared the spell, waited until everyone stopped running laps around me for some reason, moved my cursor until myself and gale were highlighted as the receiving targets.. held still to make sure everyone was still, and clicked the button. The character cast, everyone ran around like ninnies again, and Gale did not get the buff, because the spell missed him... only my character got it. On the subsequent three tries, I failed, each time, to buff Gale. Do fix this nonsense, Larian.

Mage Armour: No, just no. Mage armour in the game currently says it “Increases your AC by 3”. That is Not what Mage armour does, and for very good reason. Mage Armour gives you an alternate method of calculating your base AC: 13 + Dex, as long as you're not wearing armour. These are not the same things. The current application of Mage Armour will allow Monks, Barbarians or Draconic sorcerers, for example, to benefit from it alongside their unarmoured defence traits, when they are not designed to do so. We don't have those classes yet, but that's not an excuse. We will have: things need to be made and presented with that in mind, and not changed arbitrarily without thought. Most things in the 5e book are fairly simple and straight forward, moreso than other editions... but they're also like that for very good reasons, most of the time.

Magic Missile: Works as written, but it's not nearly as 'unerring' as it claims. Magic Missile should not miss; that's its whole deal... yet it has a nasty habit of doing so in this game. It should not plot tracking lines that can be interrupted – rather this spell should target LoS on the creatures in question, and provided that is fine, no trace is made; they should give a *visual* of streaking through the air, definitely... but they should not actually trace paths that can be interrupted, if the spell has functional LoS.

Protection from Evil and Good: This one seems to work as written and described. Thumbs up!

Ray of Sickness: Works as written and described, however, the spell card should indicate that it requires both a ranged attack roll and a Con save if it hits. It currently doesn't say this, which will mislead people.

Thunderwave: Thunderwave has received a small boost, in that it pushes targets 20 feet now. It seems to work as advertised, however, the spell itself has been made weaker relatively speaking, to the rules and the game by virtue of the way shoving now works... Thunderwave has far less value when you can shove someone 15 feet as a bonus action. It's not worth its spell slot, in light of that.

Witch Bolt: Mostly works as written, however, it doesn't snap when you range out; it should. It also doesn't accurately indicate concentration time, and the tooltips and icons are misleading and contradictory.

2nd Level Spells:

Acid Arrow: Works as written, however the tooltip references the target making a save, even though the spell is an attack roll, and no saving throws are involved at any point.

Alter Self: Alter Self is missing, even though several of its well defined functions could be used, and we would want to hope that the game will eventuality allow situations for the other ones too. If we'll never get to swim at all, that would be very unfortunate, but lacking that, the ability to give yourself a natural weapon attack that counts as magical and has a +1 bonus is a nice feature that could easily be done. Copying someone else' appearance also has useful applications.

Arcane Lock: Missing from the game, for no real reason that I can see, other than that it was deemed unlikely that players would ever want to re-lock a door... Maybe too niche, and I suppose that's understandable, but I'd still like to see it as an option.

Blindness/Deafness: The game does not have the deafened status condition, as this version of the spell clearly shows us. That in itself is a problem, especially for bards, who have many spells and abilities that depend on the targets being able to hear. The range on the spell is longer, which isn't bad thing. The spell also suffers from the bad spell timing problem that I've mentioned before. Spells of this nature have been made massively weaker and massively less appealing as a result of spell save timing changes. Hopefully it's not intended and they'll fix it.

Blur: Seems to work as written and described. Thumbs up.

Cloud of Daggers: absent. This creates a cloud effect that deals damage. I thought for sure Larian would be all over getting this one into the game.

Continual Flame: Missing, but for understandable reasons.

Crown of Madness: Missing, but for no discernible reason. It's a little bit more complicated than some spells, but not so much as to warrant its removal from the game.

Darkness: The game version of darkness says that you can't make attacks into or out of it. I don't know why; that's completely made up, and in fact, largely renders the spell useless. You've also done darkness in this instance completely incorrectly. Darkness creates an area that is Heavily Obscured. Trying to attack something *IN* an area that is heavily obscured is hard - you, the attacker, are treated as functionally blind against that target. The darkness does *Not* inflict the Blind condition on people *In* it; that's completely undermining the function of the spell and makes it purposeless.

Someone *In* an area that is heavily obscured, attempting to attack someone who is *Not* in a heavily obscured area is *not* debilitated... in fact, they generally have *Advantage*, because *They* are an unseen attacker, in relation to the target they are attacking.

If you are a sneaky halfling, in the depths of a long, dark cave... and some big job steps onto a high ledge and waves their torch around... you might be 120 feet away, but you can still see them, and you can still shoot them with your bow... at advantage, because *they* cannot see *you* in the darkness – their torch light doesn't reach that far. This is how light and shadow works.

This is why drow get the spell; this is why drow assassins use the spell... they create a cloud of darkness, from which people can't see them attacking, and within which they are relatively safe from being attacked... but they can still see the lovely illuminated, lit up people on the outside that they want to shoot.

Fix this, Larian, and while you're at it, fix light and darkness, and also, please, fix the fact that the Devil's Sight Warlock invocation doesn't work... because you get just as debilitated by Darkness as everyone else.

Detect Thoughts: While this does actually seem to function, sort of, it took some testing. It's deeply unclear the correct method of using this spell to actually get it to show up in conversation. Rewrite the tooltip and spell card to describe how the spell is actually used in this game; this is one of the places where, with its in-game functionality, you need to stray from the basic description and actually give details. It needn't be much: “While under the effects of this spell, you may get additional options in dialogues to read people's thoughts”, or something of that sort. The other minor complaint I have is that most people use detect thoughts to skim surface thoughts and direct their conversation – this method is subtle and undetectable. Using the probe is indelicate and is usually a last resort. We should get conversation prompts to subtly listen to surface thoughts (no roll or check), and then maybe get new dialogue options based on what we learn and how we might like to apply that.

Enlarge/Reduce: Missing from the spell list, even though it's clearly already in the game elsewhere. Please return it to Wizards.

Flaming Sphere: Missing. (*Now in game; See the Druid Spell Section when it's added; boy has this one got issues...)

Gentle Repose: Missing, but understandably so.

Gust of Wind: Missing, but could work like a cloud effect that pushes people in a direction once a turn?

Hold Person: Works as written and listed, but suffers badly from the spell timing problem, like other spells: even on a success, the enemy will get a second chance to save out, and if they succeed, you get no benefit from the spell at all, despite originally sticking it successfully.

Invisibility: Works mostly as written, with some problems: Many mundane actions break invisibility – such as Dash. That's ridiculous. Also, invisible characters do not take opportunity attacks, even when it would be advantageous to do so – no reason that the wouldn't, especially considering our characters do take opportunity attacks on charmed enemies, when it's a bad idea to do so.

Knock: Missing, and for no good reason. Put it in please.

Levitate: Missing. Flight and levitation cannot realistically be left out of this game, not in this day and age. (*Edit: This is not looking hopeful at all, since they've given us flying creatures that can't actually fly)

Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Aura: All absent, but for understandable reasons.

Mirror Image: No. Just No. This is not how the spell works at all, and there's no reason for it not to work as written. The way mirror image is implemented in the game currently makes it *Massively* weaker than its PnP version. This one isn't even an issue of player choice in combat - accurate mirror image would be entirely automatic! In this game, any miss, even a natural one, causes you to lose an image... that's stupid. The way the spell should work, is that when you're attacked, you roll a die – if you successfully redirect, the attack is aimed at an image, who has an AC of their own and can still be missed. The game's Mirror Image spends itself out on the first three no-chance attacks that would never have hit you anyway, and that's no good. Fix This.

Misty Step: Works as written, but... for some reason... the spell description for the spell has been changed from referencing silvery mist, to referencing black mist... er... why?

Phantasmal Force: Missing. This one could be put in in a limited sense; you could create a summon image, or the appearance of a damaging surface, which would be tied to your target. The summon version could attack the target for the listed psychic damage, while their AI would treat the surface as real and attempt to avoid it (or take psychic damage from it if they don't). I suspect this comes down to the game's inability to handle player choice in combat again.

Ray of Enfeeblement: Working as written and listed but is another victim of bad save timing, making the spell weaker and less valuable.

Rope Trick: Missing, but understandably so.

Scorching Ray: Working as written and listed, except that its range has been halved... while creature's ability to move out of range has not been decreased, and in many cases is even stronger than in the original rules. This weakens spells like this overall.

See Invisibility: Missing, for no discernible reason.

Spider Climb: Missing, but I'd really love to see them put it in.

Suggestion: Missing, but understandably so.

Web: In the original rules, web fills a cube; it's not a ground surface. Even when layered on the ground, it creates a 5 foot deep layer on the floor. Read that again. 5 foot deep. It's thick and nasty. Web offers no save out to restrained targets. Targets must use their action if they want to attempt to break free – but can stay restrained and use their actions for other things if they want to. The duration in game has also been drastically shortened (while fog cloud remained the same?). The result is that, overall, Web's actual value has been reduced substantially. I feel like I'm saying the same thing uncomfortably often...

On to Cleric (Excluding spells already covered):

Cleric Cantrips:

Spare the Dying: Missing, rendered redundant when the help action heals and brings characters up.... But it can be used at range and as a bonus action by Grave Clerics, so they may need a special version of it.

Guidance: The in game tooltip and spell card use the PHB texts... despite the fact that the in-game implementation is different. In game, it applies to all appropriate checks for the duration. I think this improvement of the cantrip isn't bad, really... it makes it much stronger, but it is a concentration cantrip, so it can afford to be. Please fix the spell card and tooltips to reflect this.

Resistance: as with guidance, this now applies to all saves for the duration. Here, the tooltips and spell card actually do reflect this. This is a step up for the cantrip, and more than for guidance – save bonuses are powerful. Not beyond the realms of where a cantrip can be though, since it's only one target. I think it's a good change.

Sacred Flame: Sacred flame works as written, but it normally has a rider which lets it ignore half and three-quarters cover. Without cover rules, that effect is gone now, and it didn't get anything to replace it. Coupled with the greatly decreased value of saving throw damage spells, sacred flame is much weakened, relatively speaking.

Thaumaturgy: I'm not a fan of the interpreted effect of thaumaturgy in the game. I'd much rather it allowed us to open unlocked doors at range.

1st Level Spells

Bane: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Bless: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Command: More commands would be good; again, a victim of the game's incompatibility with player choice in combat. The distance that creatures must be from each other on upcast has been reduced to 15ft, down from 30ft... for no discernible reason. Please fix this.

Create/Destroy Water: Create water is working fine, and as expected. Why no Destroy water effect to remove a water surface? Once again, this may be related to a lack of player choice in combat. (*Destroy water is now in as well. Finally we can clean up all the blood in our camp...)

Cure Wounds: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Detection Spells: We can see everything already, inspecting tells us everything, and any poisoned water supplies or poisoned apples will have handy little name tags identifying them as such... so I suppose it's no surprise that these ones are all missing?

Guiding Bolt: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Healing Word: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Inflict Wounds: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Purify Food and Drink: Missing, but I doubt the current game engine could handle it – it's not equipped to turn one item into another item, or so it seems.

Sanctuary: Missing, but for no discernible reason.

Shield of Faith: Works as written and listed, but cannot be cast using a higher level slot at all.

2nd Level Spells:

Aid: Hits the whole part now, but otherwise works fine. I like this marginal improvement.

Augury: Missing, but understandably so.

Calm Emotions: Missing. This could be a way of turning red targets yellow again, perhaps. It also suppresses fear and charm effects, so it would be good to see it in.

Enhance Ability: Missing. This is straight forward and easy to do, and translates well to a game medium. The only reason is that it's a spell that involves player choice... so it's not here. (*In now, See the Druid section)

Find Traps: Missing, despite plenty of evidence and opportunity when it would be a valuable spell to have, and being something that translates to a game medium very easily and well. Given how many traps there are kicking about even in act one, I expect to see this one in.

Lesser Restoration: The in game tooltip and spell card are terribly unclear about what it can and can't actually restore. This needs clarified.

Prayer of Healing: In game, this is now a 1 action cast time, but it's been given an out of combat lock. This is a really good video game adaptation of the original spell. Well done, thumbs up.

Protection from Poison: Missing, for no discernible reason. It should cure a poison, and provide advantage on saves against poison and the poisoned condition... fairly straight forward. (*Fixed; see Druid list)

Silence: Spells in game currently do not indicate their V/S/M requirements... a player not familiar with D&D or 5e wouldn't even have any idea that such things exist. They appear to be absent from the game... and yet... Silence, the spell, claims it blocks casting of spells with verbal requirements. It then adds more confusion to the mix, because the status effect of silence reads as “Muted: can't cast spells”. Despite this, as it turns out... there actually may be some recording of V/SM requirements under the hood that we can't see.. because we *Can* cast Friends, and Minor Illusion, while we are in an area of silence... which just happen to be the only two spells in the game currently which do not have a verbal component. Please clean this up... please give the information that we need to understand things properly, even those not familiar with 5e. Spells should display their V/S/M needs, tooltips should accurately reflect the actual ways that spells have been implemented.

Spiritual Weapon: Missing. This is a signature Cleric spell, and one of the main tools in their arsenal. There's no reason for it to be missing.

Warding Bond: Missing. This one is a little more complicated, but that's no excuse for leaving it out.

Zone of Truth: Missing. Likely only with specific story uses, so understandable, but still a shame.

Warlock next. Invocations have their own host of problems, but that'll have to wait for a class by class break down, if I can get to it, this is just about Spells.

Warlock Cantrips

Eldritch Blast: Works as written and listed, but its range has been drastically shortened, which cuts its value slightly.

1st Level Spells:

Armour of Agathys: Works properly, but the 2nd level usually only delivers 5 damage regardless. I have, on occasion, seen it pay out 10, properly, but only very rarely. It's almost always 5.

Arms of Hadar: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up.

Hellish Rebuke: This is another one that is a mess because they aren't handling reactions well, and are denying player choice in combat. Aside from this the spell card and tooltip don't list the save that the spell requires.

Hex: Seems to work as written and listed. Thumbs up. Also, demonstrates one way they could give us some elements of player choice for spells... that just makes us ask why all of the other omissions and spell cripples didn't get this treatment...

Patron Spells:

Dissonant Whispers: This spells should *Not* inflict the Frightened condition. It causes the target to consume its reaction and run away immediately... however, it does not impact the victim's own turn when it comes around. This throws off the balance of this spell in a bad way.

Hideous Laughter: This should still be on the Wizard list as well, and there's no reason for it to have been removed from them. That aside: As written, the spell inflicts prone and incapacitation (Prone inflicts Unconscious, which carries Incapacitation, or seems to, so unless you actually *Intend* for Prone to carry Unconscious, this is a redundancy), and allows a save at the end of each of the victim's turns, as well as a save with advantage any time they take damage. In game, the spell card and tooltip indicate that they get a save (but not advantage) when taking damage... but for some reason, it also implies that failing the save causes the victim to take more damage. Hitting the target and not breaking the effect does not, in fact, cause them to take any additional damage, so I don't know what that tooltip is going on about or what it's supposed to mean.

2nd Level Spells

Enthrall: Missing. This one should be in; anyone who fails the save has disadvantage on perception checks to notice anyone else. Good for the caster helping the rogue, for example.

Shatter: Seems to work as written and listed, however the spell card does not list the save that the spell requires.

Patron Spells:

Phantasmal Force, which is absent, has been replaced with Silence. A fair enough swap for the Great Old One, I suppose.

Ranger next.

1st Level Spells:

Animal Friendship: In game, this now says it lasts 10 rounds, when as written it should last all day. There was no need to shorten this spell's duration.

Ensnaring Strike: This is a MESS. Ensnaring strike should be a bonus action, because the attack that carries it is not a part of the spell. This is important because a part of the balance value of the spell is that you don't lose it – it works next time you hit, even if you miss a few times first. That matters. You can maintain it for up to a minute, when you do stick a hit, the target makes a Str save (large creatures and bigger have advantage). A restrained target, can use its action to try to tear free, with a Strength check. A nearby ally can do the same.

In game right now, this spell takes your action... which, for ranger, is going to screw up its usefulness even further, once they hit level 5 and get extra attack. It includes a single attack, which, if you miss, just means the entire spell is wasted (but of course, it still interrupts your concentration if you were concentrating on something else before hand). If you do hit, and the target is restrained, sorry, Ensnared, and the spell card and status tooltip indicate that you can use your action to try to break free... this is an absolute and utter lie. No such action exists. The spell was never implemented that way, and who knows why it was deemed wise to put a complete falsehood on the spell card. An ally can indeed break you free, of course, using the Help action... but that isn't a 'try' to break you free, and there is no check – it's an automatic success... and you can't 'help' yourself. Also making two separate buttons for the spell using a melee weapon or a ranged one... more excessive clutter and mess. This spell is a garbage fire right now.

Goodberry: Missing. Don't know why it isn't in – the game likes littering so much free healing food everywhere, and yet it baulked at having a spell that crates some 1hp food items in your inventory (which remove themselves when you LR). (*Fixed: See the Druid list)

Hail of Thorns: As with Ensnaring strike, this should just be a bonus action, because the attack that carries it is not actually a part of the spell, and making that attack part of the spell hugely devalues the spell by messing up extra attack. This is the only spell in the game that proudly declares itself to require BOTH your action and your bonus action... so it takes it a step further in terms of wastefulness and mess than even ensnaring strike does.

The spell does not function properly, even then: misses with the attack still actually hit.... but the system still makes rolls despite that. It's very inefficient and wasteful. The event log I used to test this had recorded the attack roll being a 3 plus my bonuses, failing to meet Shadowheart's AC. The next line showed it applying the base shot piercing damage to her anyway (1d6+3), then applying the thorns damage (1d10)... and then, oddly, applying colossus slayer damage, even though Shadowheart had been on full health before I made the shot.. so that's another problem, but it'll wait for the class break downs. As much or more of a garbage fire as Ensnaring Strike.

Hunter's Mark: The range has been shortened, as with many spells. The spell card and tooltip for this don't specify that it only adds damage to weapon attacks from the caster; it needs to, otherwise people will be expecting bonus damage from other sources, and will feel either confused or cheated when they don't get it. The spell card only talks about the bonus damage, however, when you inspect the debuff that is on an enemy it says the caster gets advantage on 'all perception and survival checks' The caster isn't told this in their own spell anywhere... and I've not been able to test if it's actually working. At the very least, I expect that it is advantage on perception and survival checks to perceive or track the target... but it doesn't say that... it just says 'All'.

Speak with Animals: This seems to be working as intended and as written. It would be nice if this one gave us a 'recast' option, like speak with dead does. (*Edit: Except, as pointed out, in game it requires concentration, when in fact it should not! There is no reason for this change.)

Druid Spells

Druid has been added, along with a host of new spells. They'll all be placed here, with reference to the other spell lists that also gained access to them.

Druid Cantrips

Produce Flame: Works as written and listed, however the implementation ends up being a bit clunky, creating a secondary 'throw flame' button on your UI.

Thorn Whip: Works as written and listed, thumbs up.

Shillelagh : Mostly working as written and listed; the spell effect is meant to end if you cast it again, but right now it technically does not. You cannot choose to cast shillelagh on your off-hand club, if you also have a club in your main hand, which you should be able to do - but you can switch the weapons and cast it a second time, and have both clubs magical. This isn't necessarily a bad change, but doing it is fiddly; if it's meant to be permissible, it should be easy to do without feeling like you're tinkering, and if not, it should be fixed. The spell lasts for 1 minute, and the casting tooltip shows ten rounds, however, once you cast it there is no actual indication anywhere that you can check, other than looking to see if the weapon is still glowing.

1st Level Spells

Entangle: There are a few problems with entangle. The initial restrain works well enough, however, the spell has gained the effect that it will also restrain creatures that later enter the area; this is because it just uses the exact same vine terrain hazard effect that you can find dotted about the existing game. This isn't necessarily a bad change on its own, however, a creature walking through a vine patch may well be forced to make multiple saves on the way through, for seemingly arbitrary reasons. Perhaps distance travelled, but it's unclear (walking around in a vine patch causes a save about once every 15 feet travelled). The next problem comes in because you are not supposed to get a save out from entangle, that's one of its strong points - you don't get a save out, but instead you must use your action (or someone else must use theirs, most DMs permit) to free yourself. If you walk into the vines, and get entangled, on your turn, you cannot do this. Instead, the game directs us to using the help action, which lets us help an ally out of the entangle condition. The problem here is that you cannot Help yourself - so a lone entangled person cannot attempt to break free on their own. Apparently, in counter to this, actually being entangled and failing the save, only lasts for one round - so whether someone helps you or not, you're enemies are going to be free on their next turn anyway. This hugely devalues the spell.

Goodberry: As written, this spell makes up to 10 berries, which each restore a single hit point, and which serve your food requirements for a whole day. It takes an action to eat a berry. In game, you only make 4 berries, but they heal a d4 each; as with all food items, in game they only take a bonus action to eat. We don't have daily nourishment needs in the video game, which I certainly won't complain about. Otherwise, this seems like a reasonable change, in a game where the berry's main purposes are negated. This spell now also appears on the Wizard list... It really, er, shouldn't be there... and on the Ranger list, which is more appropriate.

2nd Level Spells

Barkskin: the tooltip for barkskin reads as though it lasts for negative one round. In reality, it lasts until your next long rest; this is a sensible, positive change for a video game translation, for spells that have durations in the hours. They changed the wording for the spell, and made it less clear... but otherwise it works as it's meant to and seems to be all correct. Changing armour around, pushing your AC higher than 16, then lowering it again, all presents the correct values; higher when it's higher and never lower than 16.

Enhance Ability: As with Barkskin, the tooltip for each version of this spell implies they last for negative one round. This is another spell that lasts until your next rest once you cast it, provided you don't lose concentration, and as with others that have a duration in the hours, this change makes sense. Cat's Grace has received a slight tweak, and now simply halves all falling damage, as opposed to the spell as written which entirely negates it if it is 20 feet or less (so far it's hard to fall more than 20 feet in this game, unless it's a death drop), so it's a weakening of the effect in the short term, and only becomes a buff from much greater heights. It's also lost the caveat that you need to not be incapacitated, which it really should still retain. this spell now also appears on the Clerc list, as it should be.

Flame Blade: On the surface, this seems to mostly work as written and listed, however, Larian have decided to do this by making the flame blade a physical inventory weapon. It doesn't disappear if you let it go - it's in your inventory. Problem if you're trying to sneak it into a weapon-restricted area... They have managed to keep the inventory lock pretty solid on this - no escaping flame blades that I've so fr found, despite trying... However, in making it a physical weapon, rather than a stand alone spell attack, they've opened up a different exploit - you can equip the flame blade in your off-hand and use a bonus action to deal 3d6 damage each turn, when it's balanced around taking your action. Couple this with a fast-handed rogue, and it'll be particularly bad. This should probably get fixed. WE have the duration problem as well - The spell as written lasts for ten minutes, but the spell in game gives us no indication of this, and there's no way to check or see how long it has left. It seems as though it might have been made to last until your next long rest, but I actually can't tell.

Flaming Sphere: There are whole threads about Flaming Sphere and its problems. Having it act as a summon that occupies your one summon limit is ridiculous. Having it act as a summon that is a tangible 'creature' that enemies can and will target, move to, and attempt to attack is even more ridiculous. Having it roll over to you like a lost puppy and begin enthusiastically immolating your entire party as soon as combat ends, and you the caster with no way of dismissing it, or telling it to stay away (short of controlling it yourself directly for its remaining duration, or forcefully interrupting your concentration in some other way), is beyond ridiculous. As a summon, it also gets to move and attack on its own, and no longer takes up any part of your action economy - also bonkers. For added fun, Wizards also have access to this madness too.

Heat Metal: The tooltip for heat metal in game specifically says a metal weapon; in reality, the spell in game actually functions more in line with the written spell, and the tooltip is incorrect. In game, you can target a suit of metal armour, or a weapon, though if you target a person wearing metal armour and wielding metal weapons, you cannot pick what you heat - it defaults to their main hand weapon. Using your bonus action to apply damage uses the clunky extra button situation, though it does correctly only show up on your next turn, so you can't double up immediately. One issue is that the reapply damage button lists your casting stat as Intelligence; this doesn't ultimately affect anything, but it's still wrong.

Moonbeam: The tooltip for moonbeam reads as it's written in the normal rules; specifically, a creature makes a save if it enters the beam, or if it starts its turn in the beam. This is not how the spell actually works in game. It is another problem of spell timing - characters take the moonbeam's damage when you first cast it, and when you move the beam onto them, neither of which should prompt saves or damage. this menas that you will often get double ups on damage from moonbeam where you shouldn't. Also, characters often seem to take damage twice in the same instant, for no discernible reason. In my test case, I went into force turn based, and cast it on Gale - he immediately failed a save and took 7 damage and 9 damage as separate numbers - that mans he took 2d6, twice, in the moment that I cast the beam. My casting and his 'start of turn' perhaps. Either way, it shouldn't be happening. Another element that has been forgotten or neglected here is that you only take the damage on your turn once. Once. That's important. If you start your turn there, or else the first time you enter the beam on your turn - not every time. As is in game currently, if you move back and forth through a moonbeam, you'll take damage each time. You shouldn't. Once per turn is important to the balance of the spell. As usual, we have a secondary "move moonbeam" button, which acts as its own independent spell, and claims that my casting ability with it is Intelligence. Once again, this is wrong.

Protection from Poison: As with others the tooltip implies that the spell only lasts for negative one round, however upon casting it lasts until your next rest. As with other similar changes, the bump from an hour or a number of hours, to a full rest cycle is one that works well for a video game. Similarly, the spell has been buffed to now remove all poisons, not just a single one. Overall, these are positive changes that are not too strong, but are fitting for a video game translation. Thumbs up. Also added to the cleric list, as expected.

Spike Growth: The tooltip for spike growth lines up with the spell as written, except that its damage has been decreased to 1d4, down from 2d4. No reason for this nerf that I can see. Furthermore, though the spell card says that characters take damage for every 5 feet they move, as the spell is written, in game, you actually only take damage once for every 10 feet that you move. It's difficult terrain, so this means that on a turn using normal movement, in the game currently, you'll take a maximum of 1d4 a round from walking across the spikes. The spell as it is written would mean that for the same 15 feet you move over the spikes, you'd take 6d4. That's a huge, huge difference, and a very large nerf to this spell. For no real perceptible reason - they already took away your ability to surprise enemies with it, since it doesn't have the hidden-if-you-don't-see-it-cast aspect in the game. As with all spells of any real rang,e its range has also been cut in half, against creatures whose movement capabilities have not been.

That's all for Spells. There were two major issues that were the root of many of the problems, that I said I speak about once the spell lists were done, so, let's get to those:

Spell Save Timing:

In 5e, many spells force the target to make an initial saving throw to avoid their effect. That's the first hurdle that the caster has to pass to stick their spell; it's like an attack spell needing to hit. If the target fails the save, then the caster has succeeded in applying their effect. A good many of these effects limit, hamper or otherwise curtail the target's ability to act, move, or function on their turn, or impairs them in some other way.

Most of these effects, if they are ongoing, allow the target to make a new saving throw at the end of their turn. This means that once the caster has succeeded on sticking their spell, they get the benefit of at least one turn of the enemy being affected – one turn, at least, to get something out of the spell slot they spent; they've already beaten the target's save and succeeded, this is supposed to be the pay off.

In the game currently, however, this doesn't work, because the enemy actually gets its new save at the *Start* of their turn, before anything else. What this means is that in order to get any value at all out of their spell, the caster needs their target to fail not once, but twice in a row, just to get that one turn of effect... they succeeded when they cast the spell, but they could still get literally, absolutely, nothing out of the spell if the enemy passes the second save.

In this condition, why would any caster ever bother with something like that? The value of the spells that rely on saves like these has been terribly hindered because it's so much harder to get anything out of them at all now. This is a major problem that needs to be fixed right away. Spell timing matters, a lot.

Spells involving surfaces have the same issue – by fiddling with the timing of when targets make their saves, or are affected by the surface, they've drastically changed the balance and utility of the spells, in most cases making them either substantially less usable, or else completely broken and over-powered.

Grease is a current example: As written in 5e, Grease triggers a save when it appears, when a creature enters the grease, and if they end their turn in the grease. This means that targets save when you cast it, but on their turn they have an opportunity to pick themselves up and get out of the grease, if they choose to, without fearing the need to save again. It they don't get out of it, then they're exposed to a second save. In the game currently, it triggers a save, and potential slip, when the grease appears, and also if you move within the grease at all. This means that a character that starts their turn in the grease risks a save, and possible knock down (and subsequent loss of their entire turn), if they move at all, and that throws the balance of the spell right off, because they can't reliably get out of the grease without risking a second save.

BG3's programming of when it rolls for saves and save-outs is quite different from the original rules of 5e, and while it might have seemed to the designers as though the change was minor, it actually creates a lot of problems, destroys a lot of balance, and breaks many things. The timing in the rule book exists as it does with good cause, and they should really try to follow it.

Player Choice With Spells:

Many spells allow players to make a choice either when they cast the spell, or in relation to when they use its effect. Most spells of this nature have either been nerfed into the ground to remove all elements of player choice, or they are simply absent from the game.

Right now, the game does not allow for player choice to occur in combat; we cannot choose whether we do or don't want to use our reaction on a particular target, we cannot choose, outside of our turn, which reaction we'd like to use if we have multiple available. We cannot use more than one command, and we cannot deliver spells with our familiars. We don't have a chromatic orb to chose the element of, and we can't choose whether to shove someone prone, or to shove them away. We can't choose not to hellish rebuke the first thing to attack us, whom we know is immune to fire, but still choose *To* rebuke the second thing to attack us, whom we know is not. We can't destroy that water puddle we just made, and we can't enhance our allies abilities in various different ways as needed. We have no Shield to block magic missiles... and heavens help Larian when we come to Paladins, because if they keep on in this vein there is literally no way they are going to handle them acceptably... there are three ways that the current game design philosophy might handle Paladins: They'll either make the smite a separate skill (separate skills for each spell level, no less), which will burn a spell slot even if you miss – That's completely unacceptable. OR they'll make it automatic, and every hit will burn your spell slots away like lightning... Completely unacceptable. OR they might make it a reaction when you hit, but you'll need one for each spell level, and it'll still chew your reaction... also completely unacceptable. The current game design can't handle Paladins, and the whole system needs reworked.

While the lack of player choices in combat affects everyone, spellcasters, and spells with options, or spells with timing options, suffer the worst. All of the important choices about running our characters are by and large out of our hands at the moment, and it's not good.

It seems that they are generally against just asking players what they'd like to do in the middle of things. A quick simply pop window to ask “Would you like to Smite?” Isn't intrusive at all, and it does what the current game is incapable of doing.

Having Hellish Rebuke up is great, but it NEEDS to ask us if we want to use our reaction on this particular enemy... because we may not. We may want to use it on the one coming after them, and only that one... and we can't turn the reaction button on and off outside of our turn. In fact, we can barely turn it on and off at all – it's buggy as all hell... and if you should happen to accidentally remove it from the bar, there is literally no way to put it back on again.

This bleeds over into the mess that is spells and the hotbar, and how utterly clunky and backwards the current mess is... it's already a mess with just 1st and 2nd level spells... at this rate our 9th level spell section will have sixty or seventy spells in it... added to the 60 level 8s, and 50-something level 7s, etc., etc., And just wait until we have sorcerers, who, if we go by the current design, will have at level 10:

Cantrips:
Shocking Grasp, Shocking Grasp (Quicken), Shocking Grasp (Twin), Shocking Grasp (Empower), Shocking Grasp (Twin + Empower), Shocking Grasp (Quicken + Empower), Acid Splash, Acid Splash (Quicken), Acid Splash (Empower), Acid Splash (Quicken + Empower), Fire Bolt, Fire Bolt (Quicken), Fire Bolt (Twin), Fire Bolt (Empower), Fire Bolt (Quicken + Empower), Fire Bolt (Twin + Empower), Ray of Frost, Ray of Frost (Quicken), Ray of Frost (Twin), Ray of Frost (Empower), Ray of Frost (Quicken + Empower), Ray of Frost (Twin + Empower), Chill Touch, Chill Touch (Quicken), Chill Touch (Twin), Chill Touch (Empower), Chill Touch (Quicken + Empower), Chill Touch (Twin + Empower), Poison Spray, Poison Spray (Quicken), Poison Spray (Twin), Poison Spray (Empower), Poison Spray (Quicken + Empower), Poison Spray (Twin + Empower)

And it only gets worse from there. It's completely untenable... Hopefully the designers can see this, and are working on fixing it?

Last edited by Niara; 11/05/21 05:56 PM.
Joined: Aug 2014
1
old hand
Offline
old hand
1
Joined: Aug 2014
Fog Cloud isn't the most intuitive spell.

If you move a character inside the fog to hide from ranged attacks, they get gunned down like the fog wasn't there.

Joined: Mar 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2020
Wow. My new favorite post.

This should absolutely become a sticky. I have one two minor points of difference but I'll put those aside because I don't want to distract from the objectively true fact that you have created the perfect post. Much respect.

Joined: Oct 2020
N
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Oct 2020
nicely put. Thumbs up. smile

sadly this is just the beginning.
you could probably add 50% more of these like:
aid doesn't heal downed pcs
if you walk through grease or web you sometimes have to make multiple saves
fog cloud reduces your jump range
you can target individuals with magic missile what's up with the shitty bless/bane targeting
etc etc
add to that multiple spells per turn and i'm just here tearing my hair out

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Nice detailed review! Thanks!

Joined: Nov 2020
E
member
Offline
member
E
Joined: Nov 2020
I like the review.

Mage hand should also be able to push buttons, some times open doors and throw potions/small bottles. And maybe cut cords of traps to activate remotely.

Joined: Nov 2020
W
stranger
Offline
stranger
W
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by nizanegusa
nicely put. Thumbs up. smile

sadly this is just the beginning.
you could probably add 50% more of these like:
aid doesn't heal downed pcs
if you walk through grease or web you sometimes have to make multiple saves
fog cloud reduces your jump range
you can target individuals with magic missile what's up with the shitty bless/bane targeting
etc etc
add to that multiple spells per turn and i'm just here tearing my hair out


One correction I would make is Aid absolutely does heal downed targets. It increases maximum and current HP. A downed target has an HP of 0 so any increase would bring it back up.

Joined: Oct 2020
N
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by webmaster94


One correction I would make is Aid absolutely does heal downed targets. It increases maximum and current HP. A downed target has an HP of 0 so any increase would bring it back up.


last time i tried it didn't work but it has been a while.
if they patched it then great!

Joined: Oct 2020
H
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
H
Joined: Oct 2020
I've not played dnd since a bard was a multi-class, but this post makes a lot of sense to me. I think the rebalancing and approaches suggested would make massive improvements.

Joined: Aug 2014
1
old hand
Offline
old hand
1
Joined: Aug 2014
I think these deserve to be pointed out here as they are supposed to be a low level Wizard's forte.

Quote
Colour Spray and Sleep: These spells use the die average rather than rolling, and that's okay, in a pinch. The bigger problem is this: In the original rules, Colour Spray will blind 4 goblins on average, and can blind up to 8 on a good roll. In BG3 currently, it might blind 2 goblins, at MOST. Sleep, in the original rules, will sleep 3 goblins on an average roll, while in the game it can sleep 2 goblins at most... and it only gets two goblins because they aren't actually using the die average – at level one – it's 2 points higher, to Allow it to get 2 goblins.... die average would only get 1 goblin in game. This is a large weakening of these spells, as a result of the largely thoughtless changes to monster stats to favour attack rolls, to the detriment of everything else.


HP buff nerfs both. Sleep's duration also seems to be cut down from 10 turns to 1 turn (needs confirmation, didn't use after I realized it drops only 1 goblin)

Color Spray's duration is 1 round in 5e as well. Should be a bit longer to make it useful in the first place?

Also it's curious these spells are unique in that they work without saving throws. If I was to house rule them for a CRPG, I would consider a saving throw for consistency (wisdom for sleep, dexterity for color spray) and a secondary effect like drowsy for sleep (eg. -2 attack and AC for 2 turns) for creatures who are above the HP limit but fail their save or for creatures below the HP limit who make their save.

Joined: Nov 2020
Z
stranger
Offline
stranger
Z
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by Niara

Dancing Lights: The ability to control and move the lights is much more limited in the game's translation, but it is acceptable.


I hope this spell will be changed so that you can move the light by spending a bonus action. This is perfectly implemented in Solasta.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Savage North
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Savage North
Great feedback overall. And an indicator of how much work is still needed in BG3.

The Magic Missile point is one of my top contenders for Facepalming Champion. They don't feel very magic ...

Also, last time I used it, Bless wasn't good at all. It operates as an AOE, and affects the creatures closest to the centre point. With awful priorities (e.g. some neutrals will be affected ahead of party members). We should be able to target the beneficiaries, the way Magic Missiles allows multi-targets. And that's only part of the problem. But anyway.


On a different note, Spider Climb is one of these spells I so wish Larian finds a way to implement, it sounds so cool.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
Joined: Nov 2020
E
member
Offline
member
E
Joined: Nov 2020
This analysis is amazing. I hope they listen to the feedback because yes, many spells have been nerfed or limited for no good reason.

Joined: Sep 2015
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2015
@OP: Thank you, this is great.

One thing about spells with concentration: (I have already written this in the concentration topic):
Spells with concentration are weaker in BG3 than they should be because all kinds of things break concentration.
- prone does, thanks for explaining that prone = incapacitated = uncountious
- Many spells cause surface effects or damage over time when PnP rules say they do not (fire bolt is best example, there are others)
- Not sure about this one: In PnP do you have 3 concentration checks when you do a sneak attack with a fire arrow (weapon damage, fire damage, sneak damage)?
This is just an example for something that has several damage components at once.


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already :hihi:
Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Great post, Niara, I really hope the devs look at this and take it to heart. Especially this:

Originally Posted by Niara

Spell Save Timing:

In 5e, many spells force the target to make an initial saving throw to avoid their effect. That's the first hurdle that the caster has to pass to stick their spell; it's like an attack spell needing to hit. If the target fails the save, then the caster has succeeded in applying their effect. A good many of these effects limit, hamper or otherwise curtail the target's ability to act, move, or function on their turn, or impairs them in some other way.

Most of these effects, if they are ongoing, allow the target to make a new saving throw at the end of their turn. This means that once the caster has succeeded on sticking their spell, they get the benefit of at least one turn of the enemy being affected – one turn, at least, to get something out of the spell slot they spent; they've already beaten the target's save and succeeded, this is supposed to be the pay off.

In the game currently, however, this doesn't work, because the enemy actually gets its new save at the *Start* of their turn, before anything else. What this means is that in order to get any value at all out of their spell, the caster needs their target to fail not once, but twice in a row, just to get that one turn of effect... they succeeded when they cast the spell, but they could still get literally, absolutely, nothing out of the spell if the enemy passes the second save.

In this condition, why would any caster ever bother with something like that? The value of the spells that rely on saves like these has been terribly hindered because it's so much harder to get anything out of them at all now. This is a major problem that needs to be fixed right away. Spell timing matters, a lot.


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Joined: Jun 2020
Niara Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2020
Thanks for the support, all.

To answer your question, Madscientist, the PnP ruling could be considered murky, just by RAW, but only by the most devil's-advocate determined people; it says that you must make a save when you take damage, for each source of damage. The exmaples it gives are an arrow, and a dragon's breath (as being two separate sources of damage). A single shot that has multiple components (such as a rogue attack with a flaming arrow from stealth), is still only one source. Similarly, a spell like Magic Missile, even if all the bolts strike the same caster, still only generates one concentration save for that caster; that one in particular was ruled on by some of the designers in Sage Advice.

You are right; Concentration is taxed a lot more in BG3's rendition of the rules. A lot more than it should be.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Excellent post, agree with almost all of it.

Two notes, though:

1.) Thunderwave is not as purposeless as you assume, the push can propel multiple objects, which can do damage when colliding with creatures or other objects. Someone demonstrated one-shotting the Adult Red Dragon in the Githyanki patrol by using Thunderwave to push a shit ton of objects down from the bridge and on top of it.

2.) Your explanation of how Darkness is supposed to work is actually incorrect. Darkness explicitly mentions that creatures with darkvision cannot see through it, so BOTH attacker and defender are functionally blind when attacking each other, neutralizing any disadvantage and advantage on attack rolls.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
I'd say the spell does a very poor job of clarifying whether it creates darkness -- ie the lack of light; or blackness -- meaning the space is filled up by opaque black colour. They're not really the same.


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Dexai
I'd say the spell does a very poor job of clarifying whether it creates darkness -- ie the lack of light; or blackness -- meaning the space is filled up by opaque black colour. They're not really the same.


I don't have access to Darkness in my current playthrough. Are we talking about the in-game adaptation or the tabletop version here?

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
I mean the tabletop version.


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5